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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 5.0


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#2071 King of the ES

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 05:01 PM

Lou
Weise
2nd (I include this only because history shows our scouting staff has no idea how to use them properly anyway)

for

Shore
Petrovic
Goc
Upshall (could be considered negative value)
Clemmensen


Sedins-Kassian
Booth-Kes-Burrows
Raymond-Goc-Hansen
Higgins-Lappy-Upshall
Manny

Hamhius-Edler
Garrison-Bieksa
Ballard-Tanev
Alberts-Barker

Schneider
Clemmensen


Shore has played 7 games for FLA already, and he's played pretty well. 2 assists and 19 SOG in fairly limited minutes. Just take out Goc & Upshall. Deal might work but I doubt FLA would pull the trigger.
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#2072 King of the ES

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 05:03 PM

In light of the Thomas trade:

BOS
Schneider

VAN
Lucic


Good idea. Tuukka Rask must be getting tired, starting all of these games and all.
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#2073 theminister

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 05:40 PM

Shore has played 7 games for FLA already, and he's played pretty well. 2 assists and 19 SOG in fairly limited minutes. Just take out Goc & Upshall. Deal might work but I doubt FLA would pull the trigger.


What bearing does the fact that Shore has played a handful of game have? He is far from ready to be relied upon for the postseason compared to someone who is more battle tested. He will be a valuable player in the future but to rush expectations of him for this season is folly especially for a team in Vancouver's position.

The same goes for Schroeder. An organization is best to allow young players to get into the line-up after building their experience and confidence, not thrusting them into positions where they are likely to fail. Both players will get their share of chances for playoff glory but not this season, not with the Canucks.

You say take out Goc and Upshall, which means you miss the most salient point. Florida will need to drop contracts before the draft. Goc would be a required piece for the Canucks in a deal like this or the 2nd would not be included to entice. Upshall has little trade value for them unless they were required to take back another unfavourable contract.

In this scenario, Florida would be trying to move middling talent/assets under contract for a high end piece (Lou) and a draft pick which does not count against the 50 contract limit, lest they waste their considerable efforts to acquire those seven 1st-3rd round picks from 2011.

This would be an asset management deal for both sides.

/Understand, King, the draft is before the UFA period meaning players off of their roster must be moved. Tallon knows he is still in a retooling phase.

Edited by theminister, 07 February 2013 - 05:49 PM.

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#2074 oldnews

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 05:47 PM

I really think this is what the Lou deal is all about from the Nucks' perspective. They want to add to the prospect pool for next year and beyond while adding to the current roster for a deep run at the playoffs this year.

So, just to talk it out, let's envision a trade as we've proposed, even though seeing so many moving parts go in a single deal is unusual to say the least, under the assumption that Florida is trying to clear contracts for the offseason:

Lou
Weise
2nd (I include this only because history shows our scouting staff has no idea how to use them properly anyway)

for

Shore
Petrovic
Goc
Upshall (could be considered negative value)
Clemmensen


Sedins-Kassian
Booth-Kes-Burrows
Raymond-Goc-Hansen
Higgins-Lappy-Upshall
Manny

Hamhius-Edler
Garrison-Bieksa
Ballard-Tanev
Alberts-Barker

Schneider
Clemmensen

With the exception of Barker, I don't see a major weakness in that line-up.

It may be true that there isn't a blue chip piece in that package but it does solve issues for both organizations.


That's a deal I really like and I think it's pretty reasonable both ways. I'm not terribly concerned about a bluechip - in my opinion players like Petrovic and Shore have the potential to develop into very good NHL players, and it's always a possibility with bluechips that they become only average NHL players - I think touting is for the most part an over-rated aspect when we look in hindsight at how players develop - not always very predictable.
I'd do Luo alone for Goc, Petrovic, Shore, I'd take Upshall if they insist and give them a depth forward like Weise as you've included (we'd probably lose him to waivers anyhow). I'd sub Manny there, although I really like him, Florida may prefer a depth C if giving up Goc and Shore.
I'd probably prefer to leave Clemmenson out - as well as our 2nd - and go another route for a backup - the one thing I'm not keen on is making a commitment to him for two years when Lack is in cue to get a shot next year, but his health is a concern, and Clemmensen can always be moved again, so depending upon Tallon's viewpoint...He may prefer to move Theodore separately to a team like Toronto and see if he can get a better part in return?
But I'd take any combination of that deal and feel pretty good about letting Luo go where he wants to.

Edited by oldnews, 07 February 2013 - 05:53 PM.

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#2075 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:07 PM

You look for every excuse to trade Luongo. That's how it is.


It's not an excuse its whats best.
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#2076 King of the ES

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:08 PM

You say take out Goc and Upshall, which means you miss the most salient point. Florida will need to drop contracts before the draft. Goc would be a required piece for the Canucks in a deal like this or the 2nd would not be included to entice. Upshall has little trade value for them unless they were required to take back another unfavourable contract.

In this scenario, Florida would be trying to move middling talent/assets under contract for a high end piece (Lou) and a draft pick which does not count against the 50 contract limit, lest they waste their considerable efforts to acquire those seven 1st-3rd round picks from 2011.

This would be an asset management deal for both sides.

/Understand, King, the draft is before the UFA period meaning players off of their roster must be moved. Tallon knows he is still in a retooling phase.


I guess I'm just not sure why the Canucks would be interested in either Goc or Upshall. We shouldn't care about what sort of precarious position the Panthers are in; that's their problem, not ours.
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#2077 smurf47

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:09 PM

Because Lu is far far better than smith- the guy had 1 good season behind a wall of a defense.

Teams will try and resign their goalies.
Detroit resigns Howard
Phx resigns smith (they have no other option)
Backstrom may walk but Harding is sucking this year and has MS so they will be weaker in goal. Either way Lu is far far better than backstrom, more experienced too in terms of playoffs/Olympics/big games.

Khabby sucks and no one wants him ad a #1
kipper is an attractive option but Calgary would want a lot fir him, plus they have organizational depth in goal

Hiller is just awful, his contract is robbery

Lu is better than all these guys

Is that your opinion...or are you qualified to make that judgement?
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#2078 Millerdraft

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:15 PM

I really like what little I have seen from Shore so far, especially in the dot. He's 12 of 17 in the Ozone, 7 of 9 in the Dzone.

I personally like the Shore Petrovic better because of Shore's offensive upside (especially with Kesler here to help mould his game) but the Matthias Ellerby obviously helps the "win now" mode much better.
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#2079 theminister

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:24 PM

I guess I'm just not sure why the Canucks would be interested in either Goc or Upshall. We shouldn't care about what sort of precarious position the Panthers are in; that's their problem, not ours.


You don't understand why the Canucks would be interested in Goc? Really??? Like, not at all?

You take Upshall to make the deal work. Empathy for your trading partner's needs is essential to get a deal done.

The only way I think the Canucks can have their pie and eat it too would be to utilize their deeper pockets. It doesn't have to be done in a Lou deal but making one trade is easier than two or three.

Edited by theminister, 07 February 2013 - 06:26 PM.

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#2080 Get real canuck fans

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:36 PM

Man Washington has to be thinking about doing something.
Not sure if Neuvirth was pulled or hurt after allowing 2 goals on 11 shots and Holtby allowing 2 on 8 shots.
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#2081 WHL rocks

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:41 PM

WSH has to do something. I don't see them go on like this for remainder of season. MG GMGM will surely lose his job if things don't change fast.

Being a WSH fan it might not be a bad thing. I think they need a change in mgmt to move things forward.

Edited by WHL rocks, 07 February 2013 - 06:55 PM.

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#2082 Get real canuck fans

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:43 PM

WSH has to do something. I don't see them go on like this for remainder of season. MG will surely lose his job if things don't change fast.

Being a WSH fan it might not be a bad thing. I think they need a change in mgmt to move things forward.


5 goals allowed in 13 minutes in the 2nd after being ahead 1-0
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#2083 theminister

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:48 PM

WSH has to do something. I don't see them go on like this for remainder of season. MG will surely lose his job if things don't change fast.

Being a WSH fan it might not be a bad thing. I think they need a change in mgmt to move things forward.


George McPhee?

I agree though as he is also one of the longest standing GMs in the league. He has seemed to stall being able to get the team over the hump.

At this point you have to figure the coach isn't the problem. Personnel in the dressing room change or the GM does.
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#2084 WHL rocks

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:03 PM

George McPhee?

I agree though as he is also one of the longest standing GMs in the league. He has seemed to stall being able to get the team over the hump.

At this point you have to figure the coach isn't the problem. Personnel in the dressing room change or the GM does.


I did mean George McPhee. fixed.

I think the mgmt team needs to change. He's had a chance to retool the team a couple of times and also change coaches. The Penguins brought in Ray Shero to re tool the team and they won a Cup. WSH needs to do something similar and have a 3rd party assess the roster and prospect pool. Sometimes the GM who drafts the players and/or trades for them have more of an emotional investment in them.
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#2085 bear2

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:14 PM

GM spelled backwards is MG much like god and dog. A word is palindromic if it's spelled the same way backwards as forwards. What's the longest palindromic word in the english language?
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#2086 theminister

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:16 PM

GM spelled backwards is MG much like god and dog. A word is palindromic if it's spelled the same way backwards as forwards. What's the longest palindromic word in the english language?


Ogopogo.

What does this have to do with anything?
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#2087 Karlsson`s Flo

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:29 PM

I did mean George McPhee. fixed.

I think the mgmt team needs to change. He's had a chance to retool the team a couple of times and also change coaches. The Penguins brought in Ray Shero to re tool the team and they won a Cup. WSH needs to do something similar and have a 3rd party assess the roster and prospect pool. Sometimes the GM who drafts the players and/or trades for them have more of an emotional investment in them.


Teams may start looking at Fasth of Anaheim before looking at Luo. He has been just as phenomenal this season as Luo and could be a better bargain for teams not wanting to give up a piece of their core or top prospects.

Edited by Karlsson`s Flo, 07 February 2013 - 07:29 PM.

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#2088 WHL rocks

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:33 PM

Teams may start looking at Fasth of Anaheim before looking at Luo. He has been just as phenomenal this season as Luo and could be a better bargain for teams not wanting to give up a piece of their core or top prospects.


Fasth has played 2 NHL games in his life.
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#2089 Karlsson`s Flo

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:43 PM

Fasth has played 2 NHL games in his life.


4 games. And he was a top European goalie before coming to the NHL even playing to Swedens national teams in the past 2 years. That's why he's 30 and comes out of nowhere.
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#2090 The Bookie

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:00 PM

Ogopogo.

What does this have to do with anything?


To be fair, that might be the most exciting thing to happen in this thread all week.
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#2091 jagori78

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:03 PM

Longest palindrome I can think of comes from a poem about Napoleon Bonapartes exile to the Isle of Elba.
"Able was I, 'ere I saw Elba."
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#2092 theminister

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:12 PM

To be fair, that might be the most exciting thing to happen in this thread all week.


The Ogopogo is pretty exciting.

Check your inbox.

Longest palindrome I can think of comes from a poem about Napoleon Bonapartes exile to the Isle of Elba.
"Able was I, 'ere I saw Elba."


Satan oscillate my metallic sonatas.

/ Courtesy of Soundgarden.

Edited by theminister, 07 February 2013 - 08:13 PM.

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#2093 The Bookie

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:22 PM

oh if we're doing phrases, there's always "A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama"
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#2094 Gollumpus

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:50 PM

I really think this is what the Lou deal is all about from the Nucks' perspective. They want to add to the prospect pool for next year and beyond while adding to the current roster for a deep run at the playoffs this year.

So, just to talk it out, let's envision a trade as we've proposed, even though seeing so many moving parts go in a single deal is unusual to say the least, under the assumption that Florida is trying to clear contracts for the offseason:

Lou
Weise
2nd (I include this only because history shows our scouting staff has no idea how to use them properly anyway)

for

Shore
Petrovic
Goc
Upshall (could be considered negative value)
Clemmensen


1.) I believe you would have to add a few contracts to the Canucks part, or remove a contract or two from Florida's offer. My recollection is that the Canucks are already at, or very near the number of allowed contracts so taking on three more from Florida than they are moving out would give Gillis a bit more scrambling to do. It's not anything too major, but it is perhaps most easily resolved by giving back some contract dumps to even things out.

2.) On a related note: assuming Shore and Petrovic are immediately assigned to the minors, with the addition of Goc, Upshall and Clemmensen the Canucks would be taking on an additional $450,000. Sending out a contract like a depth forward or d-man could give the Canucks a bit more breathing room.

3.) I'm not that crazy about Goc and I don't see him as any kind of a significant upgrade on what the team already has for bottom-6 centers. He's not bad in the face-off circle. I could do without him. If the Canucks were trading for a bottom-6 center (and they weren't going to use Shore in that capacity), then I'd prefer the went after Matthias. He's cheaper, younger, bigger, and comparable numbers to what Goc has put up.

Or, maybe Gillis could pick up a bottom-6 center in a different deal.

4.) Upshall does have a NMC/NTC so he may well not welcome being a part of this proposed deal. On the other hand, if it looked like the Panthers were going to blow their team up he might then be inclined to go to a team which could give him a chance to win a Cup.

When oldnews (I believe it was you) first started to mention Upshall as a guy who could be in this trade, I can't say that I saw the sense in it. The guy looked like a right wing version of Salo with all of the injuries he's had over his career. However, looking at his style of play, and the pretty good numbers he has put up in a limited number of games, I think he could be an asset to this team.

The only potential downside is whether or not the team can retain him under next year's salary cap.


regards,
G.
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#2095 King of the ES

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:56 PM

You don't understand why the Canucks would be interested in Goc? Really??? Like, not at all?


Who's he replacing? Lapierre or Malhotra? Frankly, I'll take either of the former.
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#2096 eretz canucks

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:58 PM

Fasth has played 2 NHL games in his life.


that's rich, luo is an all star, a gold medal winning Olympian who has been to the SCF. Who is Fasth- career NHL games = 2

You funny guy!
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#2097 The Bookie

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:58 PM

Are the Canucks at 50 contracts currently?
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#2098 Teemu Selšnne

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:59 PM

Petrovic, Matthias, Theodore, 2nd round pick for Luongo, __________
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#2099 eretz canucks

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:00 PM

McPhee needs to do something before he loses his job...the goaltending is just god awful...how is a mid first round pick, a prospect and Brouwer who is a 2nd/3rd tweener too much for a guy who is going to come in and be their best player?
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#2100 Teemu Selšnne

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:01 PM

Who's he replacing? Lapierre or Malhotra? Frankly, I'll take either of the former.


Hate to say this, but I agree with you.

Goc doesn't have a role on the Canucks unless Lappy or Manny are gone; which would be a step backward anyway.
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