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Pavel meeting with the media today, possible jersey retirement?


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#121 co

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 06:20 PM

It has to be 10 , retiring 96 would be a joke because it was all a PR stunt just like MJ changing to 45 and Kobe to 24


Word ccc, What a dope "96" He needs to mix some toothpaste in with his shampoo he's got a cavity in his brain, ignarosis..

jk CHIPS

Edited by co, 06 April 2013 - 06:22 PM.


#122 The Sieve

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:21 PM

Wonder what everyone thinks about Declan Hill's comments on page 3 of his book entitled, "The Fix". He mentions Bure's name and I was just wondering what everyone thinks about these comments.
Declan Hill is a sports journalist who has a PH D is journalism and has covered international sports for several years. Thoughts?

#123 debluvscanucks

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:24 PM

Is that really enough of a reason to retire a players number? That's pretty much my point Deb.


Yes, it is.

If you ask many in this town who the best ever Canuck was, many will say Bure. So why not?

TS: can you post it for us?

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#124 WeatherWise

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:33 PM

This is from the 1994 Canucks Fan Appreciation Day. When Pavel's name was announced, the entire crowd erupted with excitement. This may be the loudest ovation a Vancouver player has ever received. He helped shape Vancouver into a hockey market:



Some people forget he played a huge role in developing Vancouver into the hockey community it is today. This city's incredible passion for hockey is largely due to Pavel. He filled seats, helped bring this team to the Stanley Cup Final, and changed how the city supported its team. People adored him on a level greater than any other player in this team's history. With the organization's financial woes, the team might not even have survived had he not been here. His jersey retirement will be tremendous. Without a doubt, he is the greatest Canuck.

Edited by WeatherWise, 09 April 2013 - 03:29 AM.

The greatest segue into a weather segment.

#125 debluvscanucks

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:38 PM

That was very cool, WW....my son and I were there (it was at BC Place)...we were front row.

It was like we'd won the cup...the atmosphere was electric and it was very much a celebration of that team. Was a proud moment.

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#126 TheRocket18

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:50 PM

Good, most exciting player we have ever had.
#10 in the rafters - about time.

#127 Baggins

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:12 PM

Calder Memorial Trophy?

5 All-Star appearances as a Canuck?

World Junior and Championship gold. Plus Olympic silver.

Only 1 of 8 players in NHL history to have back-to-back 60 goal seasons. Did it as a Canuck.

If management hadn't screwed him, he likely would have retired a Canuck, and there would be no argument. Bottom line is, he's still the best player this team has ever drafted and developed, and we should honor him.


The blue has nothing to do with the franchise.

I've never bought the bold part. The management who screwed him were all gone when he decided to sit out and demanded his trade. Keenan, who Bure said was among his favorites in the NHL, was both GM and coach at the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkahQYFA5q8

I'd say his number one reason was the fishbowl that was Vancouver. Once his buddy Gino was traded (which happened his last season here) he simply wanted out of that fishbowl.


You must have missed the thread with the article that quotes Acquilini as saying they're going to retire his number...

It's done.


Not yet but it might as a well be. The article also says, "All that remains now is a rubber stamp. The Canucks three-person committee has to make their official recommendation to finally hang 10." But if it's what the owner wants it will happen. I do think it lowers the bar here though. (See my argument for retiring Lou's number). So it's not official as yet, but if the owner (Bure's buddy) wants it, it's bound to happen.

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#128 Baggins

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:17 PM

Yes, it is.

If you ask many in this town who the best ever Canuck was, many will say Bure. So why not?

TS: can you post it for us?


Most "talented" Canuck ever. Yes. Best ever "Canuck". No. There's a distinction between the two in my mind.

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#129 Baggins

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:28 PM

Some people forget he played a huge role in developing Vancouver into the hockey community it is today. This city's incredible passion for hockey is largely due to Pavel. He filled seats, helped bring this team to the Stanley Cup Final, and changed how the city supported its team. People adored him on a level greater than any other player in this team's history. With the organization's financial woes, the team might not even have survived had he not been here. His jersey retirement will be tremendous. Without a doubt, he is the greatest Canuck.


I don't know about that....

Here's a link to Canuck attendance.
http://www.hockeydb....ph.php?tmi=8756

Average Canuck attendance per game:
86/87 10406
87/88 11002 McLean joins team
88/89 13772 Linden joins team
89/90 15417
90/91 15150
91/92 15768 Bure joins team
92/93 15418
93/94 15140 Cup Run
94/95 13920
95/96 17796 GM Place opens
96/97 17320
97/98 16957 McCaw buys out Griffiths/Relocation rumblings/Linden & McLean traded
98/99 15802 Bure sits out/Burke takes over as GM
99/00 14641 Messier's last year/Naslund leads the team in scoring
00/01 17026 Naslund takes over as captain to start the season
01/02 17712 WCE is formed/Linden returns
02/03 18500 Sell out streak begins in November

Fans returned before Bure joined the team. You can point to Quinns rebuilding adding Mclean and Linden for that. It peaked with the excitement of Bure 's rookie season. Yet butts in the seats declined ever year despite Bure until a shiny new arena drew fans out again. The novelty of the new arena quickly wore thin and attendance again declined every year until Naslund took over as captain after Bure's departure.

How does that translate to Bure filled seats and saved the franchise? It was Bure's last year playing here that the rumblings of moving the team surfaced despite having Bure, Mogilny and Messier. We'll never know what attendance would have been without Bure, but it didn't change much with his addition to the team nor did it keep butts in the seats. You'd have a much easier time arguing Naslund saved the franchise and changed the way the city supported it's team.

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#130 WeatherWise

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 06:14 PM

I don't know about that....

Here's a link to Canuck attendance.
http://www.hockeydb....ph.php?tmi=8756

Average Canuck attendance per game:
86/87 10406
87/88 11002 McLean joins team
88/89 13772 Linden joins team
89/90 15417
90/91 15150
91/92 15768 Bure joins team
92/93 15418
93/94 15140 Cup Run
94/95 13920
95/96 17796 GM Place opens
96/97 17320
97/98 16957 McCaw buys out Griffiths/Relocation rumblings/Linden & McLean traded
98/99 15802 Bure sits out/Burke takes over as GM
99/00 14641 Messier's last year/Naslund leads the team in scoring
00/01 17026 Naslund takes over as captain to start the season
01/02 17712 WCE is formed/Linden returns
02/03 18500 Sell out streak begins in November


If the value of the Canadian dollar and the ballooning cost of GM Place's construction had anything to do with ticket prices, one can see what might have stagnated attendance levels. Pacific Coliseum's capacity is 16,281.

In 1991, the Canadian dollar rose from an average of 0.857 cents US to 0.872 cents US. This was recorded just as Bure arrived in Vancouver, at the end of the 1991 calendar year.

In 1992, the Canadian dollar dropped nearly five cents, from 0.872 to 0.828 cents. This correlates with the slight drop in attendance in 1992-93.

By the middle of the 1993-94 season, the dollar had dropped another five cents, to 0.775 cents US. The following year (1994-95 season), it dropped again, to 0.732 cents US. And the following season (1995-96), it fell to 0.728 cents US. The team moved to GM Place that season.

http://www.canadianf...y-average-rates

You can see the weakening of the Canadian economy highly correlates with your attendance records. At the same time as the 1994 season, the Griffiths family was struggling to finance the construction of GM Place, and were looking for money wherever they could:

http://www.lcshockey...7/feature10.asp

In 1992, Frank Griffiths suffered a stroke and was placed on life support for ten days. Around the same time, Northwest Sports purchased five acres of land on the old Expo 86 site downtown for $14 million. The next month, they announced that they'd build a 20,000 seat arena for $100 million, including land costs. They started construction in 1993 without having secured all necessary financing, wanting to be ready to go for the start of the 1995 season. Cost estimates ballooned as construction took place, and the crafty conservative accountant Frank Griffiths watched in horror from his sickbed as his son overextended the family empire. In April of 1994, as the Canucks were about to embark on their second thrilling ride to the finals, Frank Griffiths passed away on the same day that he was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in the Builders Category. His team was about to reach their greatest moment of glory, but his family fortune was on the brink of collapse.


You can imagine ticket prices soaring in Bure's years with the Canucks. Despite this, the attendance never dropped to its levels from the 1980s, staying at only 1,000 from capacity until the catastrophic drop in the Canadian dollar to 0.73 cents US between 1994 and 1995 -- even then, only 2,000 seats from capacity.

The real world took its toll on people; despite this, the amount of fan support for the team grew exponentially during Bure's time with the Canucks, and one can see that had he not been there, attendance might have decreased rapidly based on Canada's financial crisis. The Edmonton Oilers faced a similar challenge, dipping to all-time lows in attendance in the mid-1990s; the Winnipeg Jets struggled with 13,000 in attendance as well. The Ottawa Senators, meanwhile, had all-time lows in attendance right off the bat.

The financial woes of the Griffiths family only made matters worse as they desperately tried anything they could to pay for GM Place's construction. This struggle eventually led to the Griffiths losing ownership of the team, as is well documented. Bure may have been one of the reasons the team didn't bleed money, which would have forced the team to perhaps relocate.

Edited by WeatherWise, 07 April 2013 - 06:26 PM.

The greatest segue into a weather segment.

#131 debluvscanucks

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 06:17 PM

Baggins, you've likely made your point....you don't support this. But you likely won't convince the many of us who think this is the right thing to do. I think you're wasting your time presenting your case, as those of us who have made up our mind won't be swayed by your opinion.

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#132 Baggins

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:08 PM

If the value of the Canadian dollar and the ballooning cost of GM Place's construction had anything to do with ticket prices, one can see what might have stagnated attendance levels. Pacific Coliseum's capacity is 16,281.

In 1991, the Canadian dollar rose from an average of 0.857 cents US to 0.872 cents US. This was recorded just as Bure arrived in Vancouver, at the end of the 1991 calendar year.

In 1992, the Canadian dollar dropped nearly five cents, from 0.872 to 0.828 cents. This correlates with the slight drop in attendance in 1992-93.

By the middle of the 1993-94 season, the dollar had dropped another five cents, to 0.775 cents US. The following year (1994-95 season), it dropped again, to 0.732 cents US. And the following season (1995-96), it fell to 0.728 cents US. The team moved to GM Place that season.

http://www.canadianf...y-average-rates

You can see the weakening of the Canadian economy highly correlates with your attendance records. At the same time as the 1994 season, the Griffiths family was struggling to finance the construction of GM Place, and were looking for money wherever they could:

http://www.lcshockey...7/feature10.asp


You can imagine ticket prices soaring in Bure's years with the Canucks. Despite this, the attendance never dropped to its levels from the 1980s, staying at only 1,000 from capacity until the catastrophic drop in the Canadian dollar to 0.73 cents US between 1994 and 1995 -- even then, only 2,000 seats from capacity.

The real world took its toll on people; despite this, the amount of fan support for the team grew exponentially during Bure's time with the Canucks, and one can see that had he not been there, attendance might have decreased rapidly based on Canada's financial crisis. The Edmonton Oilers faced a similar challenge, dipping to all-time lows in attendance in the mid-1990s; the Winnipeg Jets struggled with 13,000 in attendance as well. The Ottawa Senators, meanwhile, had all-time lows in attendance right off the bat.

The financial woes of the Griffiths family only made matters worse as they desperately tried anything they could to pay for GM Place's construction. This struggle eventually led to the Griffiths losing ownership of the team, as is well documented. Bure may have been one of the reasons the team didn't bleed money, which would have forced the team to perhaps relocate.


Finances in the 80's had a much greater effect on Canadians than the US dollar of the 90's. Mortgage rates skyrocketed. Mine jumped to 18.9% in '83. Money became very tight for the average Canadian. The US dollar in the 90's had an effect but nowhere near as much on the average Canadian. The price of imports from the US went up. But more than anything it simply discouraged the average Canadian from travel to the US and buying new US made cars. But for a Canadian attending a hockey game a $40 ticket was still $40 Canadian. The impact was felt much harder by Canadian NHL teams as more and more contracts were in US dollars. The US dollar had virtually no impact on attendance with Toronto, Calgary, and Montreal. Edmonton showed a drop but the team was already in financial trouble prior to the dollar and the drop likely had more to do with the teams poor performance after their last cup run. And as you can see from the attendance numbers, attendance increased prior to the arrival of Bure. That doesn't mean that Bure didn't help keep butts in the seats. But I have a difficult time believing he "saved the team" as the number just don't bear that claim out.

Edited by Baggins, 07 April 2013 - 08:09 PM.

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#133 spartacus

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:28 PM

It might be a step towards sweater retirement but I doubt they would do that right off the bat. Pavel has been absent from the Canucks organization for over a decade now. They need to re-establish a relationship with him in order for any sort of "retirement" or "Ring of Honour" type gesture to really feel legit

Press conference can be streamed live here at 11:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGpiVYrG2bM



#134 spartacus

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:31 PM

I have heard from a pretty good source that the Canucks have approached Bure a couple of times about raising him to the Ring of Honour, and retirng his number, only to be refused by Bure.

#135 Baggins

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:45 PM

Baggins, you've likely made your point....you don't support this. But you likely won't convince the many of us who think this is the right thing to do. I think you're wasting your time presenting your case, as those of us who have made up our mind won't be swayed by your opinion.


I've known all along I'd not sway those with the Bure fan glasses firmly in place. But at least I've made some few take a more realistic look and actually think about how deserving Bure is of the teams highest honor. That's really all expressing ones opinion is about isn't it?

I think many want his number retired because he was their childhood hero and others simply because they want another number in a somewhat bare cupboard. But a realistic look at his number of games played and personal accomplishments as a Canuck is pretty low to have his number retired. As an analogy, the great employee who quits and moves on after a just few years doesn't get the gold watch, while the good employee who stays a long time does.

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#136 dirk diggler

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:05 PM

I don't know why but I thought he was dead.
"If I claim to be a wise man it surely means that I don't know..."

#137 WeatherWise

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:26 AM

The blue has nothing to do with the franchise.

I've never bought the bold part. The management who screwed him were all gone when he decided to sit out and demanded his trade. Keenan, who Bure said was among his favorites in the NHL, was both GM and coach at the time.


Pavel held out precisely when Brian Burke was hired -- former assistant GM of the Vancouver Canucks from 1987 to 1992. Burke was part of the management group that kept Pavel stuck in LA for two weeks. He was the one who brought him to Vancouver in the first place. Burke had obvious ties to Quinn, and has always said he is one of Quinn's disciples.

His decision to holdout may not have entirely been his own idea, either. His agent, Mike Gillis, played a huge role in that, suggesting it to be a possibility as early as when he had been hired by Bure. Gillis dealt with Quinn, and some of the issues with management are documented here:


http://www.pbfc.org/oldnews.html

Bure talks go nowhere
Bure's agent has a chat with GM Quinn.
Elliott Pap Vancouver Sun
13 September, 1997.


WHISTLER, BC-- Pavel Bure's new representative hinted the Russian Rocket could still walk out on the NHL club in the coming weeks.

Bure's new agent, Mike Gillis, slipped in and out of Whistler after meeting with the disgruntled Russian.

Gillis did not return a call to the Vancouver Sun but told radio reporter Ron Barnet Friday that he had spoken with Canuck GM Pat Quinn and that there were issues to resolve -- money owed perhaps? -- before the season begins.

When asked if Bure might eventually withhold services, Gillis said draw your own conclusions.

Bure himself said "nothing has changed" and that he was leaving matters in Gillis' hands.

"That's why I have Mike," Bure said. "He's a lawyer and a really smart guy. He's an ex-player and I think that helps a lot."
On the ice, Bure was the star of Friday's scrimmage as he scored three times in his team's 6-4 victory and admitted to actually enjoying himself.

"It's nice to score goals in practice but the most important thing is I had lots of fun," Bure said.


John McKeachie: Bure ball now in Quinn's court
John McKeachie The Province
24 September, 1997.

...

In simple terms, according to Gillis, "There are some issues which are not yet resolved. Pat (Quinn) is familiar with them."
Some are legendary. Some rumored. Others yet unknown.

For example, the unpaid portion of Bure's contract from the lockout year must be among them, although Gillis declines to get specific. However, when asked if elsewhere around the league others have had the same problem solved and how he said, "Yes, some via signing bonuses, some by redoing the contract."

...

Gillis did say he advised Quinn of a comfortable "time frame" in which to get the outstanding matters resolved. "Before the end of training camp" is the frame, but the agent won't acknowledge the more emotional "deadline." Nor will he get into the "or else" other than to say, "There are some options."

Those would include withholding services.

...

"Anything's possible," Gillis adds when asked if Bure staying is in the cards. The same answer came when asked if a trade was or was not requested.

Whether or not Bure was previously getting bad advice, it seems he does have a point.


On October 18, 1997, this report was released:

19 October, 1997
Pavel Bure is getting very close to withdrawing his trade request

A meeting in Toronto this week between Canucks GM Pat Quinn and the Russian's Kingston, Ont., agent Mike Gillis made substantial progress on some of the main issues which have been troubling the Rocket.

"We've pretty much settled two of the areas and made progress on others," said Gillis on Saturday. "We had a positive meeting and had some frank discussion on quite a few topics."


Of course, the money Pavel received was not the entire sum he was owed:

15 November, 1997
Bure drops to the second line
Canucks' coach Mike Keenan moves Linden back to right wing on the top unit.
Iain MacIntyre -Vancouver Sun.

...

Although Bure has reportedly settled his outstanding grievance for back pay - he and the club are believed to have agreed to a $1.1 million US settlement - the Russian Rocket remains non-committal about whether he is happy in Vancouver.


Edited by WeatherWise, 08 April 2013 - 02:03 AM.

The greatest segue into a weather segment.

#138 WeatherWise

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:26 AM

And no, Pavel's relationship with Keenan was not as pleasant as you've suggested:

Sunday, April 5, 1998
Bure's days as Canuck numbered
By SCOTT MORRISON -- Toronto Sun

The question in Vancouver is no longer if the Canucks will move Pavel Bure in the summer, but where?

The reports of Bure requesting a trade before the deadline and the heated discussion between Bure and coach Mike Keenan on the bench a few weeks ago will only serve to further grease the wheels.

Fact is, a year ago Bure requested a trade from general manager Pat Quinn and he never rescinded the request. It was all part of Bure's dissatisfaction with the Canucks over money he believed he was owed and other internal business.


Friday, April 3, 1998
Curses for Keenan
Bure, Iron Mike in heated exchange at Canucks bench
Jim Jamieson, Sports Reporter The Province

It may not be a major reason why Pavel Bure wants out of Vancouver, but a verbal dust-up on the bench with head coach Mike Keenan can't help but make the decision a little easier.

In yet another barometer reading of how the times are changing for the Vancouver Canucks, Bure, for years virtually immune to criticism, was carved up in front of his teammates during a 1-1 tie with the Senators two Saturdays ago.

...

According to sources, Keenan approached Bure and asked him if he was going to play this game and referred to him as a "selfish little suck."

Bure shot back: "F--- you! I've played 69 games this season."

Bure then started to get up, apparently to leave the bench, but sat down again. While this remarkable repartee was taking place, the rest of the players on the bench were variously trying to pretend they hadn't heard what was being said or staring awkwardly in another direction.

A few minutes later, Bure scored the tying goal but, when he came back to the bench, he made a point of sitting at the opposite end from Keenan. The coach then approached him saying, "Way to go, Pavel."

But Bure was having none of it and once again told Keenan to f--- off.

Bure was clearly displeased when asked about the incident following Thursday's practice and said he had no comment, but Keenan confirmed there had been a flare-up during the Ottawa game.

"It's not a big deal. It happens all the time," said Keenan of his dressing down of the highest profile athlete ever to play in Vancouver. "We talked about it after (the game) and he said, 'No problem.' Anyway, he went out and scored the tying goal afterwards."


Ultimately, Keenan only made Pavel's situation with the team worse. He had already had problems with past management. Once Keenan was fired only to be replaced by Burke, it was easy to see the situation would not improve. Bure finally held out at the start of the 1998-99 season.

I'd say his number one reason was the fishbowl that was Vancouver. Once his buddy Gino was traded (which happened his last season here) he simply wanted out of that fishbowl.


I will agree that was one of the reasons. The entire city had been turned against him despite his injury problems. Issues with management fuelled his frustration with the organization, though, prompting him to rightfully desire a trade.

Why does he want out? Because he does not think he can please anyone in Vancouver. "Not the fans," said agent Mike Gillis. "They have been great to Pavel." But as Bure pointed out, he can't please some people in Vancouver. When he scores 50 or 60 goals he is called selfish and a poor team player. When he does not play well because he is hurt he is a malingerer with a bad attitude.


Also, here's a bit about ticket sales in relation to Bure from the 1998-99 season:

Saturday, 5th September, 1998
Bure walkout behind lag in ticket sales
By Greg Douglas -- Vancouver Sun

No matter how you slice it, Pavel Bure is still the Canucks' major gate attraction. Several Orca Bay executives believe the main cause for season ticket sales being off almost 10 per cent (which equates to approximately $4 million) compared to this time last year is Bure saying publicly he has played his last game in a Vancouver uniform.

The Bure braying should make for a lively assembly next Wednesday night at the Waterfront Hotel when Canucks president and GM Brian Burke hosts what he's dubbed the "1st Annual State of the Franchise Address," exclusively for season ticket holders.


And Bure stating clearly that Mike Gillis had authority over the entire situation:

Thursday, 3rd September, 1998
Bure not fazed by delay
By ELLIOTT PAP -- Vancouver Sun

...

The fact Bure may forfeit some, or all, of his approximate $8 million US salary appears to be an additional cause for bewilderment.

"It has nothing to do with the people and the city," Bure insisted. "It's a great city, maybe one of the best in the world. It's beautiful here in the summertime and everything. I don't read the papers but from what I've been told lately, you guys have been trying to put me against the people . . . you know, like, I hate the people, I hate the city. It's not true at all.

"I have my personal reasons, which I'm not going to discuss, and again I want to thank all the people for supporting me for seven years. They were great to me."

Despite his claim of fondness for Vancouver, Bure reneged after last season on a promise to fully explain to the media -- and fans -- why he wants to leave the Canucks. Instead, he went public on the August long weekend, speaking to a columnist hand-picked by his agent, Mike Gillis.

"Mike's in charge of all this stuff," Bure explained. "My job is to play hockey and he is responsible for all the comments I make and how to deal with management."


Bure could have held out as early as the start of the 1997-98 season. With new agent Mike Gillis, Pavel took a more aggressive approach to negotiating with management. At this point, rumors began to spread that Pavel wanted a trade, though one must remember at this time Alexander Mogilny was holding out for a new contract and had set a precedent for using it as a tactic. Pavel was vilified by the media and management, and consequently the city turned against him.

Mike Keenan's tenure did nothing to resolve any of this tension, and in fact fuelled it. When Keenan was fired, Burke, former assistant GM of the Canucks, was hired, and it was clear Pavel would be continue to be trapped in the city with no resolution. He and Gillis made the decision that a holdout was necessary. Management issues were the reason for this vicious fight between Gillis and the Canucks, ultimately resulting in Pavel being moved.

Were there trust issues? Absolutely.

Edited by WeatherWise, 08 April 2013 - 01:59 AM.

The greatest segue into a weather segment.

#139 Baggins

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:43 AM

[

And no, Pavel's relationship with Keenan was not as pleasant as you've suggested:

Ultimately, Keenan only made Pavel's situation with the team worse. He had already had problems with past management. Once Keenan was fired only to be replaced by Burke, it was easy to see the situation would not improve. Bure finally held out at the start of the 1998-99 season.

I will agree that was one of the reasons. The entire city had been turned against him despite his injury problems. Issues with management fuelled his frustration with the organization, though, prompting him to rightfully desire a trade.

Also, here's a bit about ticket sales in relation to Bure from the 1998-99 season:

And Bure stating clearly that Mike Gillis had authority over the entire situation:

Bure could have held out as early as the start of the 1997-98 season. With new agent Mike Gillis, Pavel took a more aggressive approach to negotiating with management. At this point, rumors began to spread that Pavel wanted a trade, though one must remember at this time Alexander Mogilny was holding out for a new contract and had set a precedent for using it as a tactic. Pavel was vilified by the media and management, and consequently the city turned against him.

Mike Keenan's tenure did nothing to resolve any of this tension, and in fact fuelled it. When Keenan was fired, Burke, former assistant GM of the Canucks, was hired, and it was clear Pavel would be continue to be trapped in the city with no resolution. He and Gillis made the decision that a holdout was necessary. Management issues were the reason for this vicious fight between Gillis and the Canucks, ultimately resulting in Pavel being moved.

Were there trust issues? Absolutely.


Enter Mike Keenan. It was at this point Bure said he reconsidered the request quietly to himself because he liked the way Iron Mike was running the show. He was playing 27 or 28 minutes a night and loved it. But he decided there had been too much water under the bridge to turn back.

``I can tell you honestly I had no problem with Mike whatsoever and I loved to play for him. He was the coach and general manager at that time and I had 39 goals and a big bonus for 50. He called me in the office and said, `Listen, don't worry about 50 goals. I'll get you 50. I'll help you to do it.' And he was the general manager. I really like Mike.

He claims Keenan's style didn't bother him much and shrugged off the ``you little suck'' name-calling incident the coach engaged in during a game in Ottawa last season.

``That didn't bother me,'' Bure said.

``I played for (Viktor) Tikhonov so that was nothing.''

However Keenan did trade his friend Gino Odjick, which was by this time, the icing on the icing of the cake. Posted by Iain Murray

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#140 Baggins

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:59 AM

Pavel held out precisely when Brian Burke was hired -- former assistant GM of the Vancouver Canucks from 1987 to 1992. Burke was part of the management group that kept Pavel stuck in LA for two weeks. He was the one who brought him to Vancouver in the first place. Burke had obvious ties to Quinn, and has always said he is one of Quinn's disciples.

His decision to holdout may not have entirely been his own idea, either. His agent, Mike Gillis, played a huge role in that, suggesting it to be a possibility as early as when he had been hired by Bure. Gillis dealt with Quinn, and some of the issues with management are documented here:


http://www.pbfc.org/oldnews.html




On October 18, 1997, this report was released:



Of course, the money Pavel received was not the entire sum he was owed:




The truth is we'll never know the whole story about Bure's leaving. Quinn refused to "get into a mud slinging contest" with a former player over a former team when Bure went vocal in Florida. Burke said the whole story hasn't been told. Gillis, his former agent, has also said the whole story hasn't been told. Only one side has, Bure's. And you can bet your butt he's not going to say anything to make himself look bad.

It's like a messy divorce. If you talk only to the wife the ex-husband sounds like the worst man in the world and she's the victim. If you talk only to the husband, it's all the ex-wife's fault. There's always 3 truths: his truth, her truth, and somewhere in the middle the whole truth. I think the Bure departure is the same. Which is why I'm not buying everything he's selling. There's things that just don't make sense with the timing.

Not that it really matters. As I've said a few times, how or why a player leaves a team shouldn't have any great effect on whether or not his number is retired. Look no further than Montreal retiring Roy's number. When you look at Roy's accomplishments as a Hab (considerably more than Bure here btw) it was easily justified retiring his number.

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#141 nuck nit

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:06 AM

The vast majority of fans love Pavel,despise the corporate side of the story and we love to see Pavel back here where he belongs.
It makes Pavel happy.
It makes most of us happy.
Aquilini is facilitating what MOST Vancouver fans have wanted for decades-Pavel welcomed back and honored in a manner that is befitting his contributions and legendary status as an elite level hockey player in a Canucks uniform.

Edited by nuck nit, 08 April 2013 - 07:19 AM.


#142 Boudrias

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:19 AM

I don't actually see him as accomplishing more in less time either. One of the arguments about retiring Naslunds number was he only had a few years as an elite player. Naslund in fact had a smaller career window as an elite player, but within that window he actually had more league wide recognition than Bure had as a Canuck. Three time 1st all star team selections to Bure's one. Bure played for the Canucks for seven seasons and led the team in scoring four times. Naslund led the team in scoring for seven consecutive seasons. Bure won a Calder open only to rookies which is a very small percentage of the leagues players. Naslund won a Lester B Pearson and was nominated for an Art Ross. Both of which are open to all NHL players and thus more prestigious.

So how exactly did Bure accomplish more as a Canuck in less time?

As I've already said, the two biggest reasons for retiring a number are major accomplishments (Stanley Cups, NHL awards, NHL records), and games played for a franchise or a combination of the two. Bure is rather lacking in both as a Canuck.

You're correct there are absolutely no set rules for a franchise retiring a number. It's completely up to each individual franchise who gets their number retired and why. There are some that are certainly questionable and those you also wonder why it hasn't happened. I'm talking purely the typical reasons stated above. If you agree it should be based on accomplishments and /or games played for a franchise then wouldn't Bure fall in the "why was his number retired" category as opposed to the "it makes complete sense" category?

He deserves to be in the HHoF for his hockey career. But with this franchise and what he accomplished here I'd say he falls short of our highest honor but deserves to be in the ring of honor.

Let me ask you this: Has Luongo earned his number being retired here? If your answer is no let me make a case for him based on Bure's number being retired.

402 games played as a Canuck (26 less than Bure)
Holds 3 NHL records as a Canuck
Holds 8 franchise records
3 all-star game appearances as a Canuck
2 Vezina nominations as a Canuck
1 Hart trophy nomination as a Canuck
1 Lester B Pearson Nomination as a Canuck
1 William Jennings trophy win as a Canuck

He's played a similar number of games here as Bure, holds more team records, more league records, and has a considerably better league recognition resume, I'd say if Bure's number is retired then we have to retire Luongo's as well as he has a similar number of games with more personal accomplishments. If you can argue against that logic then you're not being logical about retiring Bure's number.

Baggins you invariably put forth thought out and logical arguments. Sometimes that does not carry the day and emotionalism does. Time also dulls memories and media forms opinions. Bure's time in Van was exciting as he filled one cog in Quinn's playoff bound team. One could argue that team would not have made the '94 final without Bure. As desperate as Van fans are for a CUP and might I suggest national recognition, retiring a jersey is a cheap substitute. The old standard, as a Habs fan, was at minimum a CUP victory +++ before a number retirement. Canucks have never had that. Smyl & Linden were captains of teams who arguably carried their teams to CUP finals. They played for years on talent suspect rosters. I saw them play and within the Canuck historical context whole heartedly agreed with their numbers going up. I did not agree with Naslund's number being retired. As you suggested the ROH sufficed. Naslund did not led his team beyond the 2nd round and IMHO his game was not complete. He played one end of the ice. Naslund had the advantage of modern media. Was his effort superior to Thomas Gradin? I agree with your assessment of Bure. Truly the most talented player to ever play for the Canucks but not the complete package. IMO retiring his number along with Naslund's cheapens the Linden and Smyl legacy. Would Bure return for a ROH ceremony? I think not.

#143 nuck nit

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:32 AM

Baggins` opinions are hardly reflective of Vancouver Canucks fans and Bure well wishers collective mind set.
Who cares about Montreal and what they did,frankly.
Who cares about Luongo and what you think you requirements are for others.You are not making the rules.
The owner does and in this case he is doing what the vast majority think is the least the city can do for Pavel.
This is about Bure,the love the city has for him and doing something that is reflective of our respect and admiration for his talent and body of work in a Canucks uniform.
I actually note the case to honor Luo is realistic but Pavel has been gone for decades,ostracized and shunned on his departure.
This is about Pavel.




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