Team Toughness

[The Lock]

The way I see it, all one has to do is look at our team 2 years ago. How tough were we at that point? Should we have put the whole team on Tom Sestito's back? Even worse, should have have put the whole team on Kassian's back?

I think we're in a much better situation than 2 years ago and I'm pretty sure we'll get better when it comes to toughness. All one needs to do is look at the players Benning has drafted. It's seems pretty inevitable that we'll be getting tougher and tougher.

[EdgarM]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

The way I see it, all one has to do is look at our team 2 years ago. How tough were we at that point? Should we have put the whole team on Tom Sestito's back? Even worse, should have have put the whole team on Kassian's back?

I think we're in a much better situation than 2 years ago and I'm pretty sure we'll get better when it comes to toughness. All one needs to do is look at the players Benning has drafted. It's seems pretty inevitable that we'll be getting tougher and tougher.

We have not been tough since the Odjick,Sandlak,Mommesso,Diduck days. Brash was good but really had no support other than Jovo. That all ended when that D&^*K almost took his head off. Things are looking better though.

[The Lock]

7 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

We have not been tough since the Odjick,Sandlak,Mommesso,Diduck days. Brash was good but really had no support other than Jovo. That all ended when that D&^*K almost took his head off. Things are looking better though.

Well, to be fair, that was also in the era where tough guys were more relied on. It's pretty evident the game changed 10 years ago with the new rules. We've seen guys like Laraque phased out, and "hybrids" who can play hockey and fight (like Prust) phased in. It's even happened on defense where tough but slow defenders, like Hatcher and Valabik, haven't been able to keep up and proven to turn into a liability rather than an asset.

Not saying we don't need toughness. I'm more saying we need a different kind of toughness these days from the 80s and 90s. We need skill with that toughness, otherwise we're just not going to be able to keep up with the other teams. It's not the same game as it once was.

[slickjim23]

9 hours ago, RWMc1 said:

Actually it was a combination of factors. We were relying on our pp to punish teams who took liberties on our players. That didn't happen. Our pp tanked and we couldn't score on numerous chances. The loss of Malholtra had a detrimental effect on our checking line and overall center depth. The excessive suspension to Rome and loss of Hammy had a detrimental effect on our defensive depth. Refs allowing after-the-whistle assaults on our players had a negative impact on players health and lessened our ability to compete. Any one of these factors we may have overcome. All of these factors combined were too much for us to overcome.

In some Playoffs, the physicality ramps up as time progresses. That year was one of those times. The Canucks had no choice but to play that way. Last year the physicality lessened as time progressed. Had the refs called the series the same way as they called the Chicago Tampa series, we probably would have won.

For people who will attack this view: Many people are using the "eye test" to make points lately. The "eye test" shows a marked difference in the way different series are reffed.

I'm not talking about them not winning it that year. I'm talking about the model changing in the years after. They didn't win that year cause of injuries and Tim Thomas. Simple as that. They were far and away the best team in the league by a mile, but with that many injuries it's really hard to throw a team together to beat a very good team with a very hot goalie. Really, if luck had gone our way, we wouldn't be nearly as salty as fans as we are today..

I completely disagree with the notion that you have to play physical when the time comes... The Blackhawks don't play physical, and can pretty much completely ignore that side of the game and still succeed and win cups. The Canucks with an Ehrhoff type d-man, better d depth, better secondary scoring, a 2C and an elite 3C today would be a cup favourite with the Sedins and shutdown pairing of Edler-Tanev... no doubt in my mind. But the fact is they're so far from having those pieces that there really is no point. Sure, we can start getting tough now like every pacific team, but the fact is, you don't NEED full on toughness to compete in this league. Speed, skill, transition ability and a great special teams are what can win you this league. Having a bunch of big bodied brutes like Lucic and such may win you the cup in a good year, but it's not like you HAVE to copy the Bruins or the Kings or Ducks in that sense... 

If this team wants one more shot with the Sedins, it needs to acquire some impact players through the draft or free agency, have them develop, and mould them into a similar team as the 2011 team... It HAS to build around the Sedins' strengths, which is special teams and a skill/elite cycling/possession game. If you have the whole team capable of playing that way, opposing teams are NOT going to have a fun time dealing with us. That's why a lot of GMs and players/other people name the 2011 Canucks the most dominant team that didn't win the cup since the Red Wings heydays. The big reason why the team succeeded so much in 2011 and even the years prior was because it was built around the Sedins' strengths... They are this team's motor...We can't go out and play a dump and chase grind game or else this team is going to fail.. Look at Torts... Look at Willie's playstyle right now.. It just doesn't work..

[EdgarM]

On 28/11/2015, 14:59:25, The Lock said:

Well, to be fair, that was also in the era where tough guys were more relied on. It's pretty evident the game changed 10 years ago with the new rules. We've seen guys like Laraque phased out, and "hybrids" who can play hockey and fight (like Prust) phased in. It's even happened on defense where tough but slow defenders, like Hatcher and Valabik, haven't been able to keep up and proven to turn into a liability rather than an asset.

Not saying we don't need toughness. I'm more saying we need a different kind of toughness these days from the 80s and 90s. We need skill with that toughness, otherwise we're just not going to be able to keep up with the other teams. It's not the same game as it once was.

Things have definitely changed since then for sure. The Dorsett, Weise, Prusts are what we have evolved to. Skill with speed and toughness. 

[TheGrizzlyCanuck]

I actually find when Vrbata is out of the lineup, we look like a stronger team. When he is traded at the deadline and his roster spot is filled out by a player that plays a more straight forward game and with a little more intensity shift to shift this issue will not be nearly as prominent. I perceive him as a passenger. All the players next in line have more grit shift to shift - Gaunce, Grenier, Shinkaruk, Kenins. This issue is overstated imo. We are soft, we are not that soft. 

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

Things have definitely changed since then for sure. The Dorsett, Weise, Prusts are what we have evolved to. Skill with speed and toughness. 

There are still the BIG BOYS too, like Lucic, who can play in the top six, fight, and weigh over 220.  We need that.

[EdgarM]

19 hours ago, slickjim23 said:

I'm not talking about them not winning it that year. I'm talking about the model changing in the years after. They didn't win that year cause of injuries and Tim Thomas. Simple as that. They were far and away the best team in the league by a mile, but with that many injuries it's really hard to throw a team together to beat a very good team with a very hot goalie. Really, if luck had gone our way, we wouldn't be nearly as salty as fans as we are today..

I completely disagree with the notion that you have to play physical when the time comes... The Blackhawks don't play physical, and can pretty much completely ignore that side of the game and still succeed and win cups. The Canucks with an Ehrhoff type d-man, better d depth, better secondary scoring, a 2C and an elite 3C today would be a cup favourite with the Sedins and shutdown pairing of Edler-Tanev... no doubt in my mind. But the fact is they're so far from having those pieces that there really is no point. Sure, we can start getting tough now like every pacific team, but the fact is, you don't NEED full on toughness to compete in this league. Speed, skill, transition ability and a great special teams are what can win you this league. Having a bunch of big bodied brutes like Lucic and such may win you the cup in a good year, but it's not like you HAVE to copy the Bruins or the Kings or Ducks in that sense... 

If this team wants one more shot with the Sedins, it needs to acquire some impact players through the draft or free agency, have them develop, and mould them into a similar team as the 2011 team... It HAS to build around the Sedins' strengths, which is special teams and a skill/elite cycling/possession game. If you have the whole team capable of playing that way, opposing teams are NOT going to have a fun time dealing with us. That's why a lot of GMs and players/other people name the 2011 Canucks the most dominant team that didn't win the cup since the Red Wings heydays. The big reason why the team succeeded so much in 2011 and even the years prior was because it was built around the Sedins' strengths... They are this team's motor...We can't go out and play a dump and chase grind game or else this team is going to fail.. Look at Torts... Look at Willie's playstyle right now.. It just doesn't work..

To think that you build your team to play one style of play is absurd and to play with no toughness is not wise. The ability to adapt to a certain game is what is needed. Yes the 2011 team had injuries but they did not adapt to Boston's toughness and they got the best of them. They were the better team by a long shot and should not have lost 4 of the last 5 games of that series.

Each line plays different styles and not every Canuck plays the Twins Cycle game. I know Dorsett,Cracknell and Prust do not. The RedWings are a good example of a highly skilled team with very little toughness. That has not helped them in the playoffs lately.Chicago is not big and tough but they can definitley hold their own when things get rough.

There is defense and there is offense. The defensive part definitely helps with a little bit of toughness and big bodies on the puck. It is a tool in the toolbox that can be utilized when needed.

[EdgarM]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

There are still the BIG BOYS too, like Lucic, who can play in the top six, fight, and weigh over 220.  We need that.

Agreed. Any one or both of Buff or Lucic would be welcomed.

[EdgarM]

12 minutes ago, TheGrizzlyCanuck said:

I actually find when Vrbata is out of the lineup, we look like a stronger team. When he is traded at the deadline and his roster spot is filled out by a player that plays a more straight forward game and with a little more intensity shift to shift this issue will not be nearly as prominent. I perceive him as a passenger. All the players next in line have more grit shift to shift - Gaunce, Grenier, Shinkaruk, Kenins. This issue is overstated imo. We are soft, we are not that soft. 

Yes we have had a disproportionate amount of  too many "soft" players  the past few years. Less Vrbata and more Virtanen type players would be appreciated.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

Agreed. Any one or both of Buff or Lucic would be welcomed.

Definately.  We need big tough guys, who play top minutes.  And these two guys would be perfect.  Big Milan on the top line, and Big Buff on our number one D pairing.  Get 'er done this July JB!

[slickjim23]

2 hours ago, EdgarM said:

To think that you build your team to play one style of play is absurd and to play with no toughness is not wise. The ability to adapt to a certain game is what is needed. Yes the 2011 team had injuries but they did not adapt to Boston's toughness and they got the best of them. They were the better team by a long shot and should not have lost 4 of the last 5 games of that series.

Each line plays different styles and not every Canuck plays the Twins Cycle game. I know Dorsett,Cracknell and Prust do not. The RedWings are a good example of a highly skilled team with very little toughness. That has not helped them in the playoffs lately.Chicago is not big and tough but they can definitley hold their own when things get rough.

There is defense and there is offense. The defensive part definitely helps with a little bit of toughness and big bodies on the puck. It is a tool in the toolbox that can be utilized when needed.

Again, toughness is overrated. Heavily overrated. So many teams in the past have won the cup without toughness. You're always going to have some players who can throw down if need be... But sacrificing skill for toughness is just stupid.

[EdgarM]

5 minutes ago, slickjim23 said:

Again, toughness is overrated. Heavily overrated. So many teams in the past have won the cup without toughness. You're always going to have some players who can throw down if need be... But sacrificing skill for toughness is just stupid.

 You need a BALANCE of toughness and skill. Can you even afford to assemble 4 lines of all "skilled" players? Not sure about winning a cup without some sort of toughness though.

[tyhee]

On 2015-11-26, 5:58:42, EdgarM said:

So, I have been thinking of Sbisa's latest big hits and where he had to fight with I think Winnipeg's Peluso afterwards. I am thinking that one of Prust or Dorsett should have showed some support for Sbisa. The same with Virtanen when he is throwing some killer checks and has to answer to whoever after the whistle. My feeling is that our tough guys should be providing a little push back and support for our younger players. Thoughts?

Prust wasn't in the lineup that game.

Dorsett wasn't on the ice when Peluso went after Sbisa.

[Carl's Jn]

guys... it appears to me that there are two diffferent styles of game... before the playoffs it depends on speed and skill, during the playoffs it becomes a physical game... just saying... stop worrying about the hitting until the playoffs start...

[EdgarM]

Tyhee,

Yeah you kind of missed the point. The point is the overall team toughness is lacking. As a fan I am tired of playing teams who get aggressive and the team turtles and puts their tails between their legs. I am tired of seeing players such as Gaudreau and Kane skate circles around the Canucks because they are not afraid to get hit by any Canuck.I am getting tired of watching the Canucks Panic in their own zone and start chasing instead of pinning the opponents along the boards or body checking them off of the puck.

[wildcam]

Hello, 

Have we all forgot about Andrey Pedan, 22yrs old, 6'5, 217 lbs plays tough and he can skate?????

We have him on road trip sitting in press box??We are  playing  big tough physical teams Dallas, Anaheim Ducks, LA Kings..

Why are we not working this big mean young player in line up clear the front of the net...This Vancouver defence is way way to soft

teams crash net as there is nobody there except Sbisa that plays tough...Come on take out Weber 5"11 out of lineup and put Big Pedan into the number 6 spot..I hear they love Weber on point on PK? You slot Vrbata on point and let this young stud put some 

fear into opposing team forwards rushing the net...

Have to have Pedan 6'5" into lineup soon..

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, tyhee said:

Prust wasn't in the lineup that game.

Dorsett wasn't on the ice when Peluso went after Sbisa.

And if we had a nuclear deterrent then the next time Peluso comes on the ice he answers.  Problem solved.  Plus, one of the guys SHOULD HAVE intercepted Pulusso before he gets to Sbisa.  That's team toughness, STANDING UP IN FRONT of your teammate. That's what I HAVE YOUR BACK means.  When a guy comes for you, I'll be there to take him on for you.

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, wildcam said:

Hello, 

Have we all forgot about Andrey Pedan, 22yrs old, 6'5, 217 lbs plays tough and he can skate?????

We have him on road trip sitting in press box??We are  playing  big tough physical teams Dallas, Anaheim Ducks, LA Kings..

Why are we not working this big mean young player in line up clear the front of the net...This Vancouver defence is way way to soft

teams crash net as there is nobody there except Sbisa that plays tough...Come on take out Weber 5"11 out of lineup and put Big Pedan into the number 6 spot..I hear they love Weber on point on PK? You slot Vrbata on point and let this young stud put some 

fear into opposing team forwards rushing the net...

Have to have Pedan 6'5" into lineup soon..

I know. What is the holdup here? What does Weber bring that is so valuable to the Canucks? He's horrible.

[The Lock]

6 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I know. What is the holdup here? What does Weber bring that is so valuable to the Canucks? He's horrible.

The fact that we don't have much on defense, period. lol

When we get better defensemen, then I'm pretty sure Weber will have trouble sticking with the team.