Alchemy Time Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 From Van: Luongo Ballard Booth 1st 3rd From NJD: Clarkson Zajac Canucks Sign Dennis Wideman Canucks Line-up Forwards Sedin-Sedin-Kesler Burrows-Zajac-Clarkson Higgins-Pahlsson-Hansen Ebbett-Lapierre-Kassian D-Men Edler-Wideman Hamhuis-Bieksa Rome-Salo/Tanev Goalies Schnieder Lack Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phamda Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 From Van: Luongo Ballard Booth 1st 3rd From NJD: Clarkson Zajac Canucks Sign Dennis Wideman Canucks Line-up Forwards Sedin-Sedin-Kesler Burrows-Zajac-Clarkson Higgins-Pahlsson-Hansen Ebbett-Lapierre-Kassian D-Men Edler-Wideman Hamhuis-Bieksa Rome-Salo/Tanev Goalies Schnieder Lack Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Devils say no thanks. They have no one to replace either player. Also Broduer says he plans to play another year. They have no top line center, Henrique has done well but the Devils probably want a 1-2 of zajac-Henrique as opposed to Henrique-Josefson. Devils has no need for both, they already have Elias, Kovalchuk, Clarkson and Parise. And I'm not a fan of Wideman, especially paired with Edler. Edler struggled enough down the stretch adding Wideman wouldn't exactly e calming for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phamda Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Why would Njd not accept this? Henrique is capable of playing on the top line, Zajac was injured all year and even now Henrique is playing with Kovalchuk, they also have Zubrus who is currently playing wing and Elias even played center at times. They get a solid goaile, Booth who is a pretty good player (better than this board thinks), then Ballard and a 1st and a 3rd. Also I love Zajac, even made a thread about a similar deal a week after we got eliminated, it didn't involve Lu, Ballard, Booth or Clarkson though.. but anyways I would love to get him for the 2nd line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Devils say no thanks. They have no one to replace either player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jägermeister Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Brodeur is sticking around for another year or two, so they would have no need for Luongo right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phamda Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Booth, Replaces Clarkson, Henrique replaces Zajac (as I said) they have Zubrus, Josefson, Carter and Gionta also to fill spots 2-4 and one for wing on any line, and while the points you made about Ballard are Valid, I have a suggeston that would help that. Counter offer. To Njd: Luongo, Booth, Rodin, 1st, 2nd To Van: Clarkson, Zajac Simple it prevents them from getting a 4.2m contract, aswell they get a 2nd and Rodin which is probably better to go with there young players anyways. I just did it up on Cap Geek and it will show that they in fact have enough cap room. Re-signings: Parise, 6.0 Brodeur, 2.0 Fayne, 1.8 Salvador, 3.5 Gionta, 600k Carter, 750k Beriner, 525k FORWARDS Zach Parise ($6.000m) / Adam Henrique ($0.854m) / Ilya Kovalchuk ($6.667m) David Booth ($4.250m) / Dainius Zubrus ($3.400m) / Patrik Elias ($6.000m) Alexei Ponikarovsky ($2.000m) / Jacob Josefson ($0.900m) / Mattias Tedenby ($0.875m) Stephen Gionta ($0.601m) / Ryan Carter ($0.750m) / Steve Bernier ($0.525m) Eric Boulton ($0.663m) / Cam Janssen ($0.525m) DEFENSEMEN Anton Volchenkov ($4.250m) / Marek Zidlicky ($4.000m) Henrik Tallinder ($3.375m) / Andy Greene ($3.000m) Adam Larsson ($0.925m) / Mark Fayne ($1.800m) Bryce Salvador ($3.500m) / GOALTENDERS Roberto Luongo ($5.333m) Martin Brodeur ($2.000m) BUYOUTS Colin White ($1.000m) / Trent Hunter ($0.667m) ------ CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter) (these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion) SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,858,833; BONUSES: $262,500 CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $6,441,167 If you feel any of these signings aren't for the right amount of $$ then they still have 6.4 Mill left and it also gives there 2008 1st rounder Mattias Tedenby a spot on the roster. And Elias will play for atleast 2-3 years, not to mention his 6 million dollar deal is up at the end of next year and he will be resigned for less which can go to the future signings of Larsson, Henrique and others. I Also agree with the Booth comment completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Booth does not replace Clarkson, they play two different styles and by trading away Clarkson, they lose an element in the teams play that they will have to replace. Clarkson is just coming of a 30 goal, 138 PIM season and it's hard to say it's just a lucky season, he did score 17 goals back during the 08-09 season and 11 goals in 42 games back in the 09-10 season. He probably would have kept his scoring pace last season too if the Devil's didn't suck so badly. Booth will replace his offense but not the grit and enforcer ability that Clarkson does. Clarkson willing to drop the gloves all the time. Gionta is a left wing, Carter is the C. Both Elias and Zubrus are old(er), they are 36 and 33. In two years they'll be 38 and 35, (while Zajac will only be 29) these are not guys you can count on to continue building your future around. Gionta and Carter are 4th liners, possible 3rd lines at their peak. Josefson slots in perfectly as a third liner, he hasn't shown the offensive ability to be counted on to anchor the second line. So right now trading Zajac complete slaughters the teams depth at C. Maybe they get by this year but the year after will be difficult for them. Again, Parise comes into play here, he wants to play for a team that will win the Cup, he has a chance next year and he could very well want to go back if they don't win the come and try again. How can you tell him you plan to make a run for the Cup after trading Zajac? IMO, he would bolt as soon as Zajac is traded. Now Henrique has been good. Henrique, at the point in his development is a good second line center and did admirably as a first line center for an extended period of time, 51 pts in 74 games( 0.689 ppga) playing primarily with Parise (69 pts) and Kovalchuk (83 points) but take a look at Tyler Bozak, he finished the season with 46 points in 73 games (.589 ppga) while his linemates Kessel (82 pts) and Lupul (67 pts in 66 games) had career years. Toronto's second line center, Mikahil Grabovski finished the year with 51 pts in 74 games, the exact same output as Henrique. You'll replace Zajac's 60 points with Zubrus career 40 points. That's not even taking into consideration Zajac ability in the circles. He is the only centerman on the Devils who is consistently above 50%, Henrique and Elias were both below 50% this year. Even Zubrus was below 50%. Although Elias and Zubrus had good years in the faceoff circle the previous year but have below 50% in the years previous to that. This trade changes: Parise-Zajac-Clarkson Kovalchuk-Henrique-Elias to Parise-Henrique-Kovalchuk Booth-Zubrus-Elias Which in my opinion is worst than what they have now. The BIGGEST thing your missing is the lack of depth on the new Devils team. Tedenby would get a spot on the roster next year no matter what, with both Bernier and Ponikarovsky contracts expiring (i only see the team keeping Bernier) You need to look at this BEYOND this year and the next year. What does this do for the Devils in the LONG run. Trading Zajac will destory New Jersey. If you want this trade to be viable you need to send back a center to fill in for Zajac. If the New Jersey had players that could fill into the 1C and 2C spot I could see Zajac moving, but they don't. The Devils have TWO center prospects in Blake Coleman and David Wohlberg, both guys projected to be 3rd or 4th liners. Luongo would be useful to the Devils because you dont know if Broduer can keep playing and injuries can happen, but I don't think Luongo will waive his NTC only to play behind Broduer. If Broduer was for sure gone, Luongo would have more value in the trade. I'm not sure how much value our 1st, 2nd and Rodin add to the overall package as Canucks pick pretty late this year. For the Devils to move Zajac AND Clarkson in a package, I think you'd have to package Booth, Kesler and Lack for Zajac, Clarkson and Josefson. Combined Booth and Kesler IMO, fill the void's of Clarkson and Zajac. While Lack COULD serve as Broduer's backup next season or play in the farm and Josefson fills a third line void for the Canucks and the Devils could move Zubrus to be a third line C or go out in free agency, so the two team forward lines after this trade would look like this: Parise-Henrique-Booth Kovalchuk-Kesler-Elias Ponikarovsky-Zubrus-Tedenby Gionta-Carter-Bernier D.Sedin-H.Sedin-Burrows Jensen-Zajac-Clarkson Higgins-Josefson-Hansen Malholtra-Lapierre-Kassian Didn't go to capgeek but the Devils should have no problem fitting under the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armada Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Brodeur says he's coming back now. They don't need Luongo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phamda Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Okay here then, put Schreoder in the deal then they get a top 6 center, and you also seem to be forgetting that they get Luongo who gives them a #1 for a number of year, which if they didn't get would destroy them anyways because they have no one to replace marty, Wedgewood is by no means a sure thing. Also with the 1st and 2nd they get they could draft a center that could play in around 3+ years since u are worried about the future, you also have to think that there are UFA in which they could sign a center, and other trades, there are alot of means to get these things, so its not like this would always stay the same, look how different are team looked 2 years ago, just 2 years and your team could be alot different. And the picks along with Rodin help there future because other than Tedenby they don't have much devloping up front (aside from Henrique and Josefson) Rodin, and a potential forward with the 1st and 2nd would help that. Overall it is good value and sometimes you take that, and you can always use that value else where and get something else you want, and the value here seems to favour New Jersey. Also Gionta can play center and he was centering the 3rd line yesterday with Kovalchuk and I believe Ponikarovsky. Yes Zajac brings alot but the value here favours NJ and they can always trade Rodin and the picks to get a center and keep Luongo as there goaile while they wait for a younger guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I could only see them possibly wanting Booth if Parise leaves and Elias retires, and Ballard would be a fit if two of their Top 6 D left. Luongo only factors in if Brodeur retires (though they could pay less for a younger goalie/ Vokoun?) That said, if those changes did happen, I would love it if Zajac or Henrique (both clutch, play making centers) could be acquired as part of the deal coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoolander Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 If trading Zajac will destroy NJ, why not do this... To NJ-Booth,Schroeder,Tanev,Ballard To VAN-Zajac Followed by To TO-Luongo,Raymond (Rights), 1st rd pick (26th) To VAN-Franson, 1st rd pick (5th overall) With our 5th overall, draft Galchenyuk, or Grigorenko or whichever centre is available at that time Sign Garrison,Huselius Lastly, don't hate....but IMO we need a playmaking centre which we got in Zajac....sooooooooooo To PHI-Kesler To VAN- JVR, 1st rd pick (JVR isn't established like Kes, so the 1st rd pick is added) Sedin-Sedin-Burrows Huselius-Zajac-JVR Higgins-Galchenyuk-Jensen Manny-Lapierre-Hansen/Kassian Bieksa-Hamhuis Garrison-Hamonic Franson-Salo Grags Schneider Lack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armada Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 If trading Zajac will destroy NJ, why not do this... To NJ-Booth,Schroeder,Tanev,Ballard To VAN-Zajac Followed by To TO-Luongo,Raymond (Rights), 1st rd pick (26th) To VAN-Franson, 1st rd pick (5th overall) With our 5th overall, draft Galchenyuk, or Grigorenko or whichever centre is available at that time Sign Garrison,Huselius Lastly, don't hate....but IMO we need a playmaking centre which we got in Zajac....sooooooooooo To PHI-Kesler To VAN- JVR, 1st rd pick (JVR isn't established like Kes, so the 1st rd pick is added) Sedin-Sedin-Burrows Huselius-Zajac-JVR Higgins-Galchenyuk-Jensen Manny-Lapierre-Hansen/Kassian Bieksa-Hamhuis Garrison-Hamonic Franson-Salo Grags Schneider Lack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 A bunch of "coulds" and tou complete glance over My points regarding point productions and faceoff statistics. You just keep adding pieces. WHY does NJD even do this trade? What does this address for them? A goaltender in Luongo? Then they could just draft a goaltender or go to free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelons Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 If trading Zajac will destroy NJ, why not do this... To NJ-Booth,Schroeder,Tanev,Ballard To VAN-Zajac Followed by To TO-Luongo,Raymond (Rights), 1st rd pick (26th) To VAN-Franson, 1st rd pick (5th overall) With our 5th overall, draft Galchenyuk, or Grigorenko or whichever centre is available at that time Sign Garrison,Huselius Lastly, don't hate....but IMO we need a playmaking centre which we got in Zajac....sooooooooooo To PHI-Kesler To VAN- JVR, 1st rd pick (JVR isn't established like Kes, so the 1st rd pick is added) Sedin-Sedin-Burrows Huselius-Zajac-JVR Higgins-Galchenyuk-Jensen Manny-Lapierre-Hansen/Kassian Bieksa-Hamhuis Garrison-Hamonic Franson-Salo Grags Schneider Lack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortorella's Rant Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 If trading Zajac will destroy NJ, why not do this... To NJ-Booth,Schroeder,Tanev,Ballard To VAN-Zajac Followed by To TO-Luongo,Raymond (Rights), 1st rd pick (26th) To VAN-Franson, 1st rd pick (5th overall) With our 5th overall, draft Galchenyuk, or Grigorenko or whichever centre is available at that time Sign Garrison,Huselius Lastly, don't hate....but IMO we need a playmaking centre which we got in Zajac....sooooooooooo To PHI-Kesler To VAN- JVR, 1st rd pick (JVR isn't established like Kes, so the 1st rd pick is added) Sedin-Sedin-Burrows Huselius-Zajac-JVR Higgins-Galchenyuk-Jensen Manny-Lapierre-Hansen/Kassian Bieksa-Hamhuis Garrison-Hamonic Franson-Salo Grags Schneider Lack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phamda Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Well he is the best goaile avaliable, and they cant get one through the draft that will help now and it also adds to a young core they are forming with the likes of Henrique, Larrson, Tedenby, Gelinas, Merril, and others, most of there players are ageing, they only have 4 players on there current roster who are 25 or younger, (Josefson, Larsson, Fayne, Henrique) and aside from Fayne and Larsson all of there D men are 28 or older, and 4 out of those 6 remaining are 30 and over. Also there ageing up front aswell, Elias (36), Zubrus (33), Sykora (35), Ponikarovsky (32), then most the others are in the 27-19 range. Yes they are in the cup final but really these playoffs have been week with all the top teams choking the way they have, this team needs to start building a core of young players to take over and fill in the holes that will be missing, mainly in goal, on the blueline and even some spots up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 First off, how do they need a goalie now? broduer has already said hes goin to play at least another year. Secondly, you're saying the Devils are weak this year in the playoffs, how does givin them Booth and Luongo and Schroeder for Zajac and Clarkson help the team? Schroeder is unproven and Booth has a tough year. The trade for the forwards is a HUGE gamble Jersey doesnt need to take. And Jersey need to build their goaltending? Yeah thats why u draft a goaltender, again they dont need luongo since broduer says hes coming back. You still dont address the why NJD should do this trade, IMO they dont benefit from this trade because they still have Broduer so they dont need Luongo. Our fans aren't even sure Schroeder is a top-6 forward and you want to give him to NJD to replace Zajac. You also dont address the fact that Zajac is there best centerman and tradin him gives them nocenterman thats above 50% in the draw. Then ad on that u replace a 6'3" centerman with a 5'9" guy an the Devils are SMALL down the middle. This is a trade that only benefits Vancouver and NOT New Jersey. You keep trying to sell Luongo but Broduer has already said he'a coming back and you dont even mention why Luongo would waive his no-trade to go to Jersey if Broduer is still in net. If the Devils want a goalie to grow with their future core why would they want Luongo when they could go after Harding for free or make a play for Bernier with the aame pieces in this trade since Quick has shown himself to be their #1 You also missed my proposal of Booth, Kesler and Lack for Josefson, Zajac and Clarkson which IMO is a much better trade that address things for both teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phamda Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I'm not saying Njd is weak, alot of there players have really stepped up but it doesn't excuse the age of there players. And if Broduer does come back you can expect 1 year out of him then they need someone else. And when you draft a goaile it takes time for them to develop. if they draft a goaile next year he won't be ready to be #1 until atleast 2017-18, I'll break it down for you. 2012-13 in Junior, 2013-14 in Junior, 2014-15 in AHL, 2015-16 in AHL/back up role, 2016-17 Back up/Tandem (not bonified starter), 2017-18 possibly ready to be a true #1. Also Booth would add a player in his prime who can be just as productive as Clarkson, and then they get Luongo which is the main piece and where they get there most value (which is what you seem to be forgetting), then Schroeder who could be a good top 6 center for them and eventually fill Zajac's top 6 role along with Henrique and add to the young core they are buliding. Bernier is by no means proven, he could be a true #1 but he could just an average #1, also Harding isn't a #1 he wouldn't be able to play 60 games, he could however be successful in a tandem but isn't really a long term solution. there may be a better option than Lu but this still puts Njd in a good postion, and we could add more to the deal, they are aging severly and need young talent to pick up the pieces, Yes they are in the finals but that's now we are talking about next year and moving forward. And that deal you proposed doesn't make sense form our perspective, it's basicly trading Booth and Kes for Zajac and Clarkson, it still leaves a whole in the top 6 and for some reason we trade Lack for Josefson which doesn't seem like fair value to me since I see Josefson as a more of a 3rd line specalist who brings some offense and can also play 2nd from time to time, I don't see him as a really consistent top 6 forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I agree it is getting fulitle and honestly I don't think it's Zajac > Kesler. I would say either Kesler > Zajac or Kesler = Zajac and I do love Zajac but Kes brings everything Zajac can but with more speed, and better in most areas. I don't think Broduer playing 1 more year or not makes a big difference on the way they look at there goaltending, he won't play 60 games so its more of whoever they get for the future will be a tandem with Marty next year. Also I think they need to build up there forward group which is where Rodin and the 1st and 2nd would really help. I understand maybe them not wanting to do that based on postions when I think about it from your point of view but from mine I just think that they need for prospects up front. Ya Zajac is tough to give up but to get a top goaile like Luongo, Rodin and a 1st and 2nd is just great value to get in return for him, and they already have Henrique to take his spot over aswell as Zubrus and Josefson to fill in for the imediaty future, and they can always sign someone. If you look at it like this: Zajac for Luongo, Rodin, 1st, 2nd. Then.. Clarkson for Booth It is outstanding for NJD, Clarkson and Booth are equal value but the value they get for Zajac is out standing, I can understand them not wanting to give him up but to get that in return is just great and they need a goaile, aswell as forward prospects which they all get in this deal. Imagine them drafting Colton Sissions and Jake McCabe with those picks, not only would they have an outstanding defense coming in the future they would also have a great set of offensive prospects like Sissions, Tedenby, Henrique, Rodin, Josefson, Or they could draft Vaselivski with the 26th and they would have a goaile coming in the future when Roberto retires and they would have a great young core of D, they may need to add one or two more forward prospects in the coming drafts or through trade but they would still have: Henrique, Josefson, Tedenby, Rodin, and also with Kovalchuk being signed forever he would be a big piece on that team for awhile and maybe they could sign Parise long term aswell. I just think that this team (though they are in the finals now) the majority of this team is getting much closer to there later years and if they don't win this year they really would need to add alot to get back and if they lose Parise they have very little to no chance, so why don't you move a pieces here or there, get a deal like this and start building a great team for the future, that will be a cup contender for awhile, and with this trade they maintain the same competitiveness basicly and still addd for the future. Either way we each have made great points on our arguments so lets just agree to disagree and either way is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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