(Article)NHL goalie rankings: Is Luongo still elite?

[Plum]

Because we didn't play a defensive game.

Game 3 Boston had 38 shots and 40 in game 6.

Yes, we out shot them - 35 to 32 on average, but come on - did you see the pathetic shots we had?

Cloutier could have played for Boston and they would have still won.

Game 3 we got cocky and got caught - then we played catch up - what does that mean? That means our slow defense was pinching - giving up more good scoring chances - heck, the Leafs would have beat us in game 3 the way we played...

Game 3 didn't lose us the series though. It looked like we tried to play defense. Just we didn't play good enough, my argument is that Luongo isn't elite anymore not that we lost that game because of him.

[Nino]

Now it's the last few seasons he's played average? No it's been a season and a half. He's two years removed from being a Vezina finalist and leading his team to the finals. But apparently that gets you nothing but an average goalie label in this market.

Funny if he's such an average goalie and there's so many better goalies in the league, why is it that he'll likely be the starter for the best hockey country on the planet? Can you explain that one?

Your still not hearing what I'm saying let me say it one more time.

He has been average the last few years.

Yes he was playing well three years ago.

What he does this year is unknown.

This could be the third straight year he plays average or he could redeem himself it is yet unknown.

I can't for the life of me understand what your problem is with what I'm saying. I'm not trashing him I'm just saying it how it is. Most if us (outside of poetica) think his stats have been average (note there are not 45 teams in the nhl).

Now to take this a step farther (because it already has) what if he has another year of average stats? Is he then ok to be called an average goalie?

[poetica]

Negatives:

I think most of you are aware I didn’t agree with many of the complaints a certain segment of this fan base had against John Tortorella. What’s interesting though is most seem unaware many of their complaints were quite similar to the ones Canucks fans had for Alain.

For example, many argued Tortorella over relied on Dan Girardi and Ryan McDonagh and that he gave those two way too many minutes. However, during this year’s playoffs Girardi and McD played 25:58 and 25:52 per game respectively, while Kevin Bieksa played 25:50 per game and Alex Elder played 26:57.

After my post about why coaches frequently line juggle, our readers seemed to stop complaining about Torts’ propensity to do so. Still, you should know that other than the top line of the Sedin twins and Burrows, Alain didn’t keep any lines togethermore than 5% of the time at even strength this season. Meanwhile, other than the Hags-Stepan-Cally line, Torts actually kept three line combos together at a frequency above 5%. So this notion that Alain doesn’t tweak his lines with great frequency is pretty unfounded.

According to some, Alain is going to be a godsend for Kreider and JT Miller, who Tortorella supposedly FUBAR’d. Ask Canuckleheads who’s to blame for Cody Hodgson being shipped out of town. Compare how many times 1st round pick Jordan Schroeder had been bounced back and forth to the AHL vs. Kreider. Alain’s recent history of dealing with rookies may not be up to some fans’ expectations.

Then of course there’s the whole “defense first” complaint, and how being good on the defensive side of the puck somehow suffocates a team’s ability to produce offense. Well, Alain Vigneault ran a 1-2-2 forecheck and would drop guys back to trap up the neutral zone with a lead. This strategy is actually what gave man birth to the term “defense first,” not shot blocking. I’m not sure how well a return to Renney-era hockey is going to go over with this crowd.

http://www.blueseatb...lain-vigneault/

Why are you comparing Thomas to Luongo? I never said Thomas was elite. Your post is mostly wrong since you're assuming that AV played an offensive type of game.

Defense transforms into offense and when that transition happened we scored. That is why we were top scoring team that year.

Ok... Well, congrats on finding part of a blog by a NYR fan to make your rebuttal for you.

But, that still doesn't make the claim that we were a defensively- rather than offensively-minded team true. We were a puck possession team and that is why we were the highest scoring team in the league. The fact that our offense dropped off so dramatically in the playoffs is not proof that we were always a "defense first" team. It's just the reason so many Canuck fans cry themselves to sleep at night.

Defensive didn't transform into offense, puck possession and shooting created offense. In the regular season, we were 6th in shots (32.0) but 12th in shots against (30.1). If we were "defense first" why was our shots against so high? We were actually pretty mid range in our number of shots against. On average, we allowed 3.9 shots more per game than the best defensive team (NJ) and 3.1 fewer than the least defensive team (Car). (And Philly had the same SA/G average as we had though they were ranked 13th.)

In fact, we were giving up 0.7 more shots on average per game than the NYR. So, how does that prove that AV was more defensively minded than Torts was?

A defensive team is one like LA. In 11/12 they were 29th in scoring in the regular season, but 2nd in goals against. They were 11th in shots on goal, but 5th in shots against. That is a "defense first" team. That year they actually were able to improve their scoring in the playoffs to 3rd but they still remained a defensive team. They were 6th in shots on goal and 4th in shots against.

And I was only comparing Thomas and Luo because you were arguing that an "elite" goalie (which I never called Luo or anyone else) gives his team a chance to win by never allowing more than 3 goals. I was simply pointing out that Thomas allowed 4 or more in only 1 less game than Luo did and he won a Cup. Unless you want to argue that he didn't give his team a chance to win?

[5Fivehole0]

i guess you missed those 3 goals he let in during game 7 not just the amount but how he let them in like the shorthanded breakway

he literally just lets the puck slide by him making 0 attempt at a save or at least a pokecheck

Except that should have been blown down when Lu had control of it(IE the puck dissapears from view) instead of being pushed into the net. It should have been a penalty shot for Boston.

[Nino]

Except that should have been blown down when Lu had control of it(IE the puck dissapears from view) instead of being pushed into the net. It should have been a penalty shot for Boston.

But he never had control?

[5Fivehole0]

he hasn't been a top 5 goalie since 2010-2011 that is fact look up the stats no opinion needed

Prepare to have your "opinion" destroyed

so because Lu has a mediocre season after the cup run and then is stuck back-up in a shortened season he is officially an "average" goalie...

WELLLLLLLLLLLLL THEN, if that is so....

Pekke Rinne is no longer an elite goal tender as these are his stats for the llast two years

11-12 .923

12-13 .897

12-13 .910

Uh-oh, looks like someones on the decline!!

Quick

11-12 .929

12-13 .909 OUCH! He's no good, SHIP HIM OUT!!!

Lundqvist

11-12 .93

12-13 .926

By your conclusions of Goaltenders

13-14 .914 Will be his sv% GGGGGGGGET OUT LUND! Bring in Howard/Bob/Rask/Schneider as they are the only ones who are good any more.

You see where I'm going with this? Your logic is so unbelievably flawed.

[5Fivehole0]

But he never had control?

Maybe, but okay, you use a video to make him look like he lost us the series? What about this?

Once again you guys use bias logic

[Dragonfruits]

Prepare to have your "opinion" destroyed

so because Lu has a mediocre season after the cup run and then is stuck back-up in a shortened season he is officially an "average" goalie...

WELLLLLLLLLLLLL THEN, if that is so....

Pekke Rinne is no longer an elite goal tender as these are his stats for the llast two years

11-12 .923

12-13 .897

12-13 .910

Uh-oh, looks like someones on the decline!!

Quick

11-12 .929

12-13 .909 OUCH! He's no good, SHIP HIM OUT!!!

Lundqvist

11-12 .93

12-13 .926

By your conclusions of Goaltenders

13-14 .914 Will be his sv% GGGGGGGGET OUT LUND! Bring in Howard/Bob/Rask/Schneider as they are the only ones who are good any more.

You see where I'm going with this? Your logic is so unbelievably flawed.

first you simpleton i am arguing the fact people are calling him a top 5 goalie which if you look at his stats the last 2 seasons he is not a top 5 goalie that is pure fact im not stating opinion or anything else just look it up on nhl.com is it really that hard to comprehend that last time he was a top 5 goalie was during the 2010-2011 season

never called him an average goalie from my previous posts i stated he still is a top 10 goalie if you average his stats the last 7 years with the Canucks

[5Fivehole0]

first you simpleton i am arguing the fact people are calling him a top 5 goalie which if you look at his stats the last 2 seasons he is not a top 5 goalie that is pure fact im not stating opinion or anything else just look it up on nhl.com is it really that hard to comprehend that last time he was a top 5 goalie was during the 2010-2011 season

never called him an average goalie from my previous posts i stated he still is a top 10 goalie if you average his stats the last 7 years with the Canucks

So what? Quick is still widely contested as #2 or #1 with a .909 sv% I love how CDC starts using name calling when they are wrong it's hilarious. "Simpleton"

He is still quite easily a top 5 goalie in the league today.I can see Rinne above him MAYBE, but not Howard/Rask/Bob yet. Repeat years for Rask and Bob and I'll agree that Lu is #5 in the league.

Stats > your opinion

P.S. This "Simpleton" is a 3rd year Pipe fitter and scored 3rd highest in the province for Physics 12

[Nino]

Maybe, but okay, you use a video to make him look like he lost us the series? What about this?

Once again you guys use bias logic

I didn't post the vid or say anything about it other them what I just said "but he never had control" you must be thinking of someone else.

[Dragonfruits]

So what? Quick is still widely contested as #2 or #1 with a .909 sv% I love how CDC starts using name calling when they are wrong it's hilarious. "Simpleton"

He is still quite easily a top 5 goalie in the league today.I can see Rinne above him MAYBE, but not Howard/Rask/Bob yet. Repeat years for Rask and Bob and I'll agree that Lu is #5 in the league.

Stats > your opinion

P.S. This "Simpleton" is a 3rd year Pipe fitter and scored 3rd highest in the province for Physics 12

stats dictate he hasn't been a top 5 goalie since 2010-2011 until you can prove otherwise there really is no point trying to say he is a top 5 goalie until he plays this upcoming season keep trying though

[5Fivehole0]

stats dictate he hasn't been a top 5 goalie since 2010-2011 until you can prove otherwise there really is no point trying to say he is a top 5 goalie until he plays this upcoming season keep trying though

alright then top 5 goalies in the NHL today

Bobrovsky

Rask

Lundqvist

Anderson

Schneider

HM to Niemi and Crawford

That list is a joke, you are exactly the definition of a bandwagoner

You don't go by a single year, you go by averages. Things happen, Injuries happen, he got stuck as a back up to lesser goalie. He had huge media pressure, his team had a "cup hangover". 1 Season does not dictate whether a goalie is elite.

[Dragonfruits]

alright then top 5 goalies in the NHL today

Bobrovsky

Rask

Lundqvist

Anderson

Schneider

That list is a joke, you are exactly the definition of a bandwagoner

your making the list not me all im doing is arguing the fact from his last 2 seasons with the canucks he is not a top 5 goalie

i could care less who is actually top 5 in goal because it changes constantly something people fail to realize

[Papayas]

stats dictate he hasn't been a top 5 goalie since 2010-2011 until you can prove otherwise there really is no point trying to say he is a top 5 goalie until he plays this upcoming season keep trying though

You two are talking about different things...

Fivehole was judging luongo as a player, while you are judging luongo base on annual stats.

He's not a top five goalie stat wise in the last two seasons, but as a player he is still top five in the league base in his skill set and history .....

People who understand sports don't judge a player base on stats alone, or they will jump on any flavor of the month bandwagon when the player is on a hot streak.

[5Fivehole0]

i could care less who is actually top 5 in goal because it changes constantly something people fail to realize

It only changes when you jump onto another wagon. Watch Reimer have a career year and the bandwagoners will be screaming REIMER BEST IN THE LEAGUE!!! and Bob will finish around 11th in stats and the same people will say "meh it was a shortened season his Vezina is worthless"

2010-2011 Lu is god

2013-2014 Lu is alright I guess..

He's 34 not 40. Goaltenders usually hit their peak in the mid 30's as they've usually been through all the pressures already and it stops getting to them.

You two are talking about different things...

Fivehole was judging luongo as a player, while you are judging luongo base on annual stats.

He's not a top five goalie stat wise in the last two seasons, but as a player he is still top five in the league base in his skill set and history .....

People who understand sports don't judge a player base on stats alone, or they will jump on any flavor of the month bandwagon when the player is on a hot streak.

Thank you, I literally couldn't have said it better my self... As I was trying... and failed.

[Darkstar]

Regardless of what people say, you have to win a cup in order to be put into that elite class. You look at players like Peter Stastny, Marcel Dionne, Gilbert Perreault, Adam Oates, etc. None of those guys have the legacy that the cup winners in the same category in terms of points/skill and they are players that many have forgotten over time.

Right now, Luongo is on pace to be in a similar category as players like Curtis Joseph. A very good goalie, but not elite. At least, until if he wins a cup.

The same goes with Henrik Lundqvist and Pekka Rinne. Until they win a cup, they will never be considered in the same class as the elite goalies in history (Brodeur, Roy, Hasek, etc), regardless of what they do in the regular season.

The Stanley Cup is the pinnacle and is the ultimate legacy-cementing trophy in hockey. Until you win it, you aren't truly elite.

[Papayas]

Regardless of what people say, you have to win a cup in order to be put into that elite class. You look at players like Peter Stastny, Marcel Dionne, Gilbert Perreault, Adam Oates, etc. None of those guys have the legacy that the cup winners in the same category in terms of points/skill and they are players that many have forgotten over time.

Right now, Luongo is on pace to be in a similar category as players like Curtis Joseph. A very good goalie, but not elite. At least, until if he wins a cup.

The same goes with Henrik Lundqvist and Pekka Rinne. Until they win a cup, they will never be considered in the same class as the elite goalies in history (Brodeur, Roy, Hasek, etc), regardless of what they do in the regular season.

The Stanley Cup is the pinnacle and is the ultimate legacy-cementing trophy in hockey. Until you win it, you aren't truly elite.

So guys like Bure or Sundin aren't elite?

[5Fivehole0]

Regardless of what people say, you have to win a cup in order to be put into that elite class. You look at players like Peter Stastny, Marcel Dionne, Gilbert Perreault, Adam Oates, etc. None of those guys have the legacy that the cup winners in the same category in terms of points/skill and they are players that many have forgotten over time.

Right now, Luongo is on pace to be in a similar category as players like Curtis Joseph. A very good goalie, but not elite. At least, until if he wins a cup.

The same goes with Henrik Lundqvist and Pekka Rinne. Until they win a cup, they will never be considered in the same class as the elite goalies in history (Brodeur, Roy, Hasek, etc), regardless of what they do in the regular season.

The Stanley Cup is the pinnacle and is the ultimate legacy-cementing trophy in hockey. Until you win it, you aren't truly elite.

Ah, see that's giving rating a whole different ranking

That would make it more along the lines of

Legends

Brodeur, Roy, Hasek, Belfour, Sawchuck, Plante

Elite

Cujo, Lundqvist, Luongo, Vanbiesbrouk

I'm not going to continue the list, but I get what you're saying.

So guys like Bure or Sundin aren't elite?

I somewhat agree with him and this point makes me disagree as well.

Why does Bure Sundin etc. get the elite title(if they don't you are crazy) and Goalies have it so much harder to reach that title due to 1 trophy and a cup?

[Darkstar]

So guys like Bure or Sundin aren't elite?

They were really good players, but not in the category as players like Selanne, Jagr, Sakic or Yzerman.

[Papayas]

They were really good players, but not in the category as players like Selanne, Jagr, Sakic or Yzerman.

That's ur opinion because they are in the hockey hall of flame.

To me it won't get any more elite than that