Systems Not Star Players The 2010/2011-2013/2014 story of the Vancouver Canucks

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Systems Not Star Players

There is a common misconception with the 2011 Vancouver Canucks that people don't understand. To understand it fully you have to go back to the 09/10 season.

In the 2009/2010 season the canucks offence took a major leap while the strong defense remained the same, That year the sedins and burrows took the whole league by storm with their new cycle and pass to the slot technique which was very effective. That year Burrows had 35 goals, Hank won the Art Ross and many other canucks had career years all because they began applying these techniques to score goals.

In 2011 the defense then took a major leap from small changes. They signed Hamhuis and Malhotra during the offseason giving them more stability on the back-end and more importantly taking away kesler's defensive responsibilities and letting him focus on offense with the sedins on PP and 5 on 5.

Canucks coach Alain Vinauglt brought a another new concept that took the league by storm by sheltering Henrik and Kesler as offensive tools while using malhotra as shutdown line. This concept made the quality of competition go down for both the sedins and kesler while increasing it for Malhotra who could handle defensive draws quite well. The result was nothing short of spectacular. This system combined with the others and their personal gave them a very potent offence along with a very potent defense. When the system was executed perfectly teams that had no system in place to stop theirs and got ripped apart offensively as a result.

Sadly things changed in the follow seasons. For starters, malhotra was no longer able to carry out the defensive responsibilities following his injury, most of their d core required surgery during the off season while a few left for greener pastures. Kesler was also injured for large parts of the last two seasons.

And most importantly the slot cycle system that was first applied in 09/10 was rendered ineffective by teams finally figuring it out. They do three things to shut it down first they aggressively attack the cyclers and keep them on the outside, second the cut passes to the slot off and third they check the guy in the slot hard to make sure that he can't move to another open area without getting checked.

The emergence of the express line featuring David Booth and the rise of Cody Hodgson the following year hid the issues and also lead them to another presidents trophy. The teams offence however took a dive with the trade of hodgson, and injuries to both Daniel(Concussion) and Booth at the end of the season effectively turning a three line deep offense into none. By the time the playoffs started the team despite winning the presidents trophy was destined for offensive failure.

The hiring of coach John Tortorella has kept and strengthen's the team's strong defensive play but the decline of the offense has still yet to be addressed. It can be only be addressed one way from systems not star players.

[TheRussianRocket.]

OP, appreciate the effort you put into the post so for that a plus. Agree with majority of what was said and here's a bit of what I have to say:

It's not rocket science...think everyone in the NHL knows we are struggling to score goals but I think it's a small concern but something we shouldn't dwell on. I honestly see this team having the potential the 2012 SC Kings had. Long story short, similarity is we are playing essentially how they did, going through the same problem where goaltending and defense is holding up well but offense is the problem. Thing is right now this scoring may be frusturating but comes playoffs, everything tightens up and teams score at a rate less than what they did in the season. For the Kings, it wasn't a problem cause they were used to not scoring much so come playoffs when they shut down the opponents, the opposing team would be hesitating and concerned about their scoring while the Kings went through this during the season and weren't stressing.

Canucks can do the same thing really and Kings that postseason seemed to win a lot of games which were very low-scoring. Seeing the Nucks it's not pretty, but style of play doesn't matter of you ultimately win the Cup...they won't write if you were an exciting team or not. Canucks lack the skilled talent but with the emergence of Torts and the system the players have finally bought into, they are playing playoff hockey so come playoffs, they'll have the upper edge on teams since they've been playing with that flow all year long. ..hopefully like the Kings, Nucks can trade for a goal scorer on trade deadline but if not and we get knocked out in the playoffs, no need to worry. Offseason is where MG is hinting to do most his work and that's where most weak spots on the team will be filled.

...Basically, we can give it a go by grinding it out how the Kings did or we can get knocked out and still be in a good position. Win-win really, no high expectations other than making the playoffs so we can watch and enjoy without stressing much

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

OP, appreciate the effort you put into the post so for that a plus. Agree with majority of what was said and here's a bit of what I have to say:

It's not rocket science...think everyone in the NHL knows we are struggling to score goals but I think it's a small concern but something we shouldn't dwell on. I honestly see this team having the potential the 2012 SC Kings had. Long story short, similarity is we are playing essentially how they did, going through the same problem where goaltending and defense is holding up well but offense is the problem. Thing is right now this scoring may be frusturating but comes playoffs, everything tightens up and teams score at a rate less than what they did in the season. For the Kings, it wasn't a problem cause they were used to not scoring much so come playoffs when they shut down the opponents, the opposing team would be hesitating and concerned about their scoring while the Kings went through this during the season and weren't stressing.

Canucks can do the same thing really and Kings that postseason seemed to win a lot of games which were very low-scoring. Seeing the Nucks it's not pretty, but style of play doesn't matter of you ultimately win the Cup...they won't write if you were an exciting team or not. Canucks lack the skilled talent but with the emergence of Torts and the system the players have finally bought into, they are playing playoff hockey so come playoffs, they'll have the upper edge on teams since they've been playing with that flow all year long. ..hopefully like the Kings, Nucks can trade for a goal scorer on trade deadline but if not and we get knocked out in the playoffs, no need to worry. Offseason is where MG is hinting to do most his work and that's where most weak spots on the team will be filled.

...Basically, we can give it a go by grinding it out how the Kings did or we can get knocked out and still be in a good position. Win-win really, no high expectations other than making the playoffs so we can watch and enjoy without stressing much

This was in response to someone stating that if we bring the 2011 team back together that we can go back to the finals but he totally forget how different the situation is and will be from now on. I am really looking forward to the next few years though with Kassian making huge leaps in his play and with potentially adding some emerging prospects like Schroeder, Horvat and Shinkaruk.

[Canuck Surfer]

The big question is what system?

I disagree to a large extent. Systems are designed to be executed by players. To extort an advantage from any system (even freelance), a player will make a play from a controlled position. Ultimately a guy has to use body position, strength, explosiveness or movement to move into a strategically less defensible position.

Its a different sport, but check this pic. No way this guy is getting stopped now?

On defence, a coach will always tell you keep the offensive guy in front of you. Watch his chest (high center of gravity), not shoulder, head, or stick fakes as a guy tries to shake and bake. The moment an offensive player gets their shoulders past the defender with a low center of gravity > as they explode forward and upward their body weight creates momentum you cannot stop unless you are Zdeno Chara and outweigh them by 70 lbs.

The Twins used to uncannily be able to contort their bodies, hang on to the puck and create positions of leverage where they could push into gaps and go where they wanted. Amazing core strength for 185 lb'ísh athletes and they always squeezed their bodies forward of defenders coming off the boards. Then as they drew a dbl team still had the nift / vision to find the other.

These days they can still protect the puck, but don't have the same athleticism to burst into the middle.

Its much easier to design systems to stop the Twins than one to take advantage of their athletic prowess if they cant quite beat their man anymore.

Edit: and for the layman's version of scouting > waaaay too many guys (especially pocket GM's here on CDC) draw conclusions about players based on Corsi, how many points they scored in junior, stats on any one team. Proper coaching, then player selection, or scouting, should be based on raw athleticism, skills, power, balance etc... The ability of a player to create a strategic advantage using athleticism is the single best projector of how a player will do against more advanced competition. Tell me how Pavel Datsyuk, widely considered the most physically talented player in the NHL bar Crosby, escaped to the late rounds?

[Canuck Surfer]

Found a pic that illustrates the subtle but true brilliance of the athleticism behind Sedinery. Hank is lower, has both his hips and shoulders blocking out his defender who is reaching, and the puck is safely where he can do his magic.

That defender has NO chance!

The real question is can they still do this anymore?

[Phil_314]

This was in response to someone stating that if we bring the 2011 team back together that we can go back to the finals but he totally forget how different the situation is and will be from now on. I am really looking forward to the next few years though with Kassian making huge leaps in his play and with potentially adding some emerging prospects like Schroeder, Horvat and Shinkaruk.

See, that's what I don't get. It's like people expect that people age with time and it won't be the same.

As for the Kings comparison, I'd hope that someone can unearth some octane or something soon since I'm not sure where the firepower will come from. They also had quite an intriguing blend of guys in their Top 6 forwards and D, with skill and size in good proportions. Their mobile D helped them get out of trouble after their big guys knocked the puck-carrier off the biscuit. Doughty really helped them get the disk up to their big guns though.

Brown - Kopitar - Williams

(do Danny - Hank - Burr have what it takes to produce in the clutch? Maybe with Kass they can do better but we'll have to see)

Penner - Richards - Carter

(Dustin Pancakes was so clutch that year, and so were Richards and Carter; we have Kesler and... Higgins if he shows up?)

Mitchell - Doughty (elite puck-mover with shutdown D --> would the expected Alex Edler PLEASE stand up?)

[chrisbanks]

haha we are nothing like that LA team..... that LA team was struggling because they had made some huge changes that year and were looking for chemistry and traded for carter at the deadline... the last month and a half they were the best team in the league.... they traded schenn and simmons for richards and jack johnson and a 1st for carter..... tell me when our GM makes moves like that and then maybe we can start to look like the kings... LA also had better tending and defence even after they traded johnson away...

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

See, that's what I don't get. It's like people expect that people age with time and it won't be the same.

As for the Kings comparison, I'd hope that someone can unearth some octane or something soon since I'm not sure where the firepower will come from. They also had quite an intriguing blend of guys in their Top 6 forwards and D, with skill and size in good proportions. Their mobile D helped them get out of trouble after their big guys knocked the puck-carrier off the biscuit. Doughty really helped them get the disk up to their big guns though.

Brown - Kopitar - Williams

(do Danny - Hank - Burr have what it takes to produce in the clutch? Maybe with Kass they can do better but we'll have to see)

Penner - Richards - Carter

(Dustin Pancakes was so clutch that year, and so were Richards and Carter; we have Kesler and... Higgins if he shows up?)

Mitchell - Doughty (elite puck-mover with shutdown D --> would the expected Alex Edler PLEASE stand up?)

haha we are nothing like that LA team..... that LA team was struggling because they had made some huge changes that year and were looking for chemistry and traded for carter at the deadline... the last month and a half they were the best team in the league.... they traded schenn and simmons for richards and jack johnson and a 1st for carter..... tell me when our GM makes moves like that and then maybe we can start to look like the kings... LA also had better tending and defence even after they traded johnson away...

I did never compared our team to the kings. They have much bigger, faster players and have a better defensive system compared to our team.

[MJDDawg]

Found a pic that illustrates the subtle but true brilliance of the athleticism behind Sedinery. Hank is lower, has both his hips and shoulders blocking out his defender who is reaching, and the puck is safely where he can do his magic.

That defender has NO chance!

The real question is can they still do this anymore?

Not sure if it's a matter of them not being able to do it anymore, but more a matter of teams now knowing how to defend them.

I look at that pic of Hank and what I see teams doing now is crunching them and knocking them down a lot more, both along the half-wall and behind the net. The other part of teams defending against them is that defences are simply not letting the second Sedin get into an open spot, essentially eliminating the pass.

Unfortunately that whole cycle game is the twins bread and butter, and with the cycle being more effectively defended, their game has become less and less effective.

[Pouria]

Not sure if it's a matter of them not being able to do it anymore, but more a matter of teams now knowing how to defend them.

I look at that pic of Hank and what I see teams doing now is crunching them and knocking them down a lot more, both along the half-wall and behind the net. The other part of teams defending against them is that defences are simply not letting the second Sedin get into an open spot, essentially eliminating the pass.

Unfortunately that whole cycle game is the twins bread and butter, and with the cycle being more effectively defended, their game has become less and less effective.

Or maybe since both have sustained enough injury and are getting older, they are easier to defend against? I mean, it took teams from the playoffs of 2007 til this year or portions of last year to figure out on how to defend them? Its one thing for a coach to devise a plan on how to defend them but its another thing to actually execute that plan.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Not sure if it's a matter of them not being able to do it anymore, but more a matter of teams now knowing how to defend them.

I look at that pic of Hank and what I see teams doing now is crunching them and knocking them down a lot more, both along the half-wall and behind the net. The other part of teams defending against them is that defences are simply not letting the second Sedin get into an open spot, essentially eliminating the pass.

Unfortunately that whole cycle game is the twins bread and butter, and with the cycle being more effectively defended, their game has become less and less effective.

Even if you watch Henrik's goal against dallas in the super long overtime it illustrates everything about the sedins cycle game. They can't do it without a guy in the slot getting the puck and being open; that's why they are so ineffective now. I just can't beleive that Tort;s didn't try Kassian with the sedins though. He is a big body who can stay open and not be easy to check that might have worked but I guess Henrik is injured now and we will never know.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

The big question is what system?

I disagree to a large extent. Systems are designed to be executed by players. To extort an advantage from any system (even freelance), a player will make a play from a controlled position. Ultimately a guy has to use body position, strength, explosiveness or movement to move into a strategically less defensible position.

Its a different sport, but check this pic. No way this guy is getting stopped now?

On defence, a coach will always tell you keep the offensive guy in front of you. Watch his chest (high center of gravity), not shoulder, head, or stick fakes as a guy tries to shake and bake. The moment an offensive player gets their shoulders past the defender with a low center of gravity > as they explode forward and upward their body weight creates momentum you cannot stop unless you are Zdeno Chara and outweigh them by 70 lbs.

The Twins used to uncannily be able to contort their bodies, hang on to the puck and create positions of leverage where they could push into gaps and go where they wanted. Amazing core strength for 185 lb'ísh athletes and they always squeezed their bodies forward of defenders coming off the boards. Then as they drew a dbl team still had the nift / vision to find the other.

These days they can still protect the puck, but don't have the same athleticism to burst into the middle.

Its much easier to design systems to stop the Twins than one to take advantage of their athletic prowess if they cant quite beat their man anymore.

Edit: and for the layman's version of scouting > waaaay too many guys (especially pocket GM's here on CDC) draw conclusions about players based on Corsi, how many points they scored in junior, stats on any one team. Proper coaching, then player selection, or scouting, should be based on raw athleticism, skills, power, balance etc... The ability of a player to create a strategic advantage using athleticism is the single best projector of how a player will do against more advanced competition. Tell me how Pavel Datsyuk, widely considered the most physically talented player in the NHL bar Crosby, escaped to the late rounds?

Everything your talking about is how they protect the puck and skate. But you fail to consider that if the guy they are trying to pass the puck in the slot is covered, the defense doesn't let that guy or the sedins move and that they are on the outside the whole thing is useless. That's what we are seeing and it has nothing to do with guys passing each other. The Sedins were always on the outside anyways. Watch henrik enter the slot here. Then watch daniel in a more recent clip.

If no one goes to the slot those goals don't happen period. I agree that having additional youth does help but having a guy with a puck in the slot is there bread and butter to scoring goals and every team is figuring that out now.

And I think the way AV used them was way better compared how tort is. Right now even with hank missing games to injury Henrik and daniel are in 4th and 6th among forwards for ice time. On top of that they are playing much tougher minutes then they are used to. In their last full season Henrik and Daniel were 59th and 73th in overall icetime among forwards(huge difference). It's nice knowing that the team is motivated under torts but it's costing us a huge price. I am not surprised in the first year under torts Henrik had his iron man streak snapped.

[Canuck Surfer]

Everything your talking about is how they protect the puck and skate. But you fail to consider that if the guy they are trying to pass the puck in the slot is covered, the defense doesn't let that guy or the sedins move and that they are on the outside the whole thing is useless. That's what we are seeing and it has nothing to do with guys passing each other. The Sedins were always on the outside anyways. Watch henrik enter the slot here. Then watch daniel in a more recent clip.

If no one goes to the slot those goals don't happen period. I agree that having additional youth does help but having a guy with a puck in the slot is there bread and butter to scoring goals and every team is figuring that out now.

And I think the way AV used them was way better compared how tort is. Right now even with hank missing games to injury Henrik and daniel are in 4th and 6th among forwards for ice time. On top of that they are playing much tougher minutes then they are used to. In their last full season Henrik and Daniel were 59th and 73th in overall icetime among forwards(huge difference). It's nice knowing that the team is motivated under torts but it's costing us a huge price. I am not surprised in the first year under torts Henrik had his iron man streak snapped.

I hear what you are saying.

In both these illustrated goals, Daniel in the first, Hank the 2knd, had the puck behind the net without being directly checked. They'll still get those goals if someone goes to the slot. Sheer movement left a guy unattended and then they pick you apart passing to the slot.

But a large part of the cycle game is of course being able to come off the wall and being able to cut back to the middle with the puck, defender on your hip and in control (like in my pic of Hank). Maybe its cause they are nursing injuries this year? Thats the battle which requires such athleticism to win. I just don't see the same ability release themselves from their defender. That comes before they can start looking for the guy in the slot. The defense is not usually going to leave them so free to hunt for that pass.

At the end of the day, what makes guys superstars is their physical ability to undress and breakdown defenders. In their patented cycle I see them getting pushed back onto the boards versus breaking free. I hope I'm wrong, you're right, but I think they have lost some of their edge.

Edit: Hey maybe a Kassian can come in to the rescue? Maybe a different guy cutting to the net, whom defences can't physically handle will make the difference? The true power forward, say John LecLair, Tim Kerr or Dave Andreychuk style guy who creates space for the skill guys to operate if they cannot themselves...

[canucksnihilist]

Like the kings?

1. We don't have the young players / prospects other teams would want. Not enough of them to trade, unless u want to give up in 2 or 3 of our best prospects

2. Richards and carter - or their equivalents aren't readily available. Even if they are - they usually only get traded if they are playing sub-par... And u take a risk that they will start playing better.

How about Schroeder and kass? The 2 players who could really do it this year - or arguably are doing it for kass.

Real problem is that the core is not playing well. Best players aren't the best players. Sedins Kesler had stretches of great play (sedins at beginning and kes middle) but it's gone now. Is it gone forever? Of course not. Hope they put it together for a playoff run - if thy don't it's in and out first round

[coastal.view]

i agree largely with the initial posting about the innovative systems brought to the canucks by AV

that was his true value as a coach

those systems got dissected over time and the players may also have fallen off a bit

torts has proven to be an effective coach so far

but he'll need to elevate the teams play over a longer period of time to be viewed as being as successful as AV was here

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Even if you watch Henrik's goal against dallas in the super long overtime it illustrates everything about the sedins cycle game. They can't do it without a guy in the slot getting the puck and being open; that's why they are so ineffective now. I just can't believe that Tort;s didn't try Kassian with the sedins though. He is a big body who can stay open and not be easy to check that might have worked but I guess Henrik is injured now and we will never know.

I hear what you are saying.

In both these illustrated goals, Daniel in the first, Hank the 2knd, had the puck behind the net without being directly checked. They'll still get those goals if someone goes to the slot. Sheer movement left a guy unattended and then they pick you apart passing to the slot.

But a large part of the cycle game is of course being able to come off the wall and being able to cut back to the middle with the puck, defender on your hip and in control (like in my pic of Hank). Maybe its cause they are nursing injuries this year? Thats the battle which requires such athleticism to win. I just don't see the same ability release themselves from their defender. That comes before they can start looking for the guy in the slot. The defense is not usually going to leave them so free to hunt for a guy in the slot just because he is cutting to the net.

At the end of the day, what makes guys superstars is their physical ability to undress and breakdown defenders. In their patented cycle I see them getting pushed back onto the boards versus breaking free. I hope I'm wrong, you're right, but I think they have lost some of their edge.

Edit: Hey maybe a Kassian can come in to the rescue? Maybe a different guy cutting to the net, whom defences can't physically handle will make the difference? The true power forward, say John LecLair, Tim Kerr or Dave Andreychuk style guy who creates space for the skill guys to operate if they cannot themselves...

I totally agree about the kassian thing but I think the reason sedins aren't cutting to middle is cause torts is using them the wrong way. Dank and Hank are 4th and 6th in ice time among forwards right now playing much tougher minutes on the PK and in the defensive zone. They weren't ever in the top 60 in a full season with AV and had much easier minutes. AV used players where they excelled at while tort's uses them for all situations.

Hank and Dank still have the ability to cut to the middle it's just that teams don't let them anymore. To show you proof here is a goal from this season.

You are right in that they need to cut into the middle to score but you are wrong for the reason that they can't(they are aging is not the reason as the video proves). The real reason is defenders don't let them anymore. In the video you see henrik and daniel trying to create something near the net but they can't cause the defender takes away their position so they try to get in from the back which ends up more successful cause it put's everyone out of position when they do that.

I really think kassian would benefit from and help the sedins if he played with them cause he could move really nicely in the slot and would be hard to check like lucic. This goal is the perfect example watch him adjust his position and the defenders fail to check him cause of his size.

[komodo1970]

OP, appreciate the effort you put into the post so for that a plus. Agree with majority of what was said and here's a bit of what I have to say:

It's not rocket science...think everyone in the NHL knows we are struggling to score goals but I think it's a small concern but something we shouldn't dwell on. I honestly see this team having the potential the 2012 SC Kings had. Long story short, similarity is we are playing essentially how they did, going through the same problem where goaltending and defense is holding up well but offense is the problem. Thing is right now this scoring may be frusturating but comes playoffs, everything tightens up and teams score at a rate less than what they did in the season. For the Kings, it wasn't a problem cause they were used to not scoring much so come playoffs when they shut down the opponents, the opposing team would be hesitating and concerned about their scoring while the Kings went through this during the season and weren't stressing.

Canucks can do the same thing really and Kings that postseason seemed to win a lot of games which were very low-scoring. Seeing the Nucks it's not pretty, but style of play doesn't matter of you ultimately win the Cup...they won't write if you were an exciting team or not. Canucks lack the skilled talent but with the emergence of Torts and the system the players have finally bought into, they are playing playoff hockey so come playoffs, they'll have the upper edge on teams since they've been playing with that flow all year long. ..hopefully like the Kings, Nucks can trade for a goal scorer on trade deadline but if not and we get knocked out in the playoffs, no need to worry. Offseason is where MG is hinting to do most his work and that's where most weak spots on the team will be filled.

...Basically, we can give it a go by grinding it out how the Kings did or we can get knocked out and still be in a good position. Win-win really, no high expectations other than making the playoffs so we can watch and enjoy without stressing much

I agree for the most part. I think, although they ve bought into the system, they re still getting used to it. A defensive style will be low scoring so making sure that no mistakes on the back end are made on the back end is crucial. A case in point is the mistake Hammer on the scoring play in LA. He took a real chance on the pinch he made. I felt it was too close to take the chance. I felt he should ve let LA have it and get back in a position to stop them. In a defensive system, D is first priority. Anything, other than a sure thing should be passed on in favor of a favorable defensive position. Other than that play I thought that game was their best effort of the year and feel it may be the turning point for them. Yes, they went to Anaheim and got blown out, but after such an emotional effort, maybe they were a bit drained. I believe this team can get it done. They are really starting to pick up on the system wanted and are working hard to improve. I do believe that changes are gonna be necessary, but i do hope he waits till the off season to do so. I don t think this team needs distraction or added stress. They are coming together as a group. Let them ride it to the end.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

I agree for the most part. I think, although they ve bought into the system, they re still getting used to it. A defensive style will be low scoring so making sure that no mistakes on the back end are made on the back end is crucial. A case in point is the mistake Hammer on the scoring play in LA. He took a real chance on the pinch he made. I felt it was too close to take the chance. I felt he should ve let LA have it and get back in a position to stop them. In a defensive system, D is first priority. Anything, other than a sure thing should be passed on in favor of a favorable defensive position. Other than that play I thought that game was their best effort of the year and feel it may be the turning point for them. Yes, they went to Anaheim and got blown out, but after such an emotional effort, maybe they were a bit drained. I believe this team can get it done. They are really starting to pick up on the system wanted and are working hard to improve. I do believe that changes are gonna be necessary, but i do hope he waits till the off season to do so. I don t think this team needs distraction or added stress. They are coming together as a group. Let them ride it to the end.

The problem is with torts system you need to execute it perfectly in order to succeed because it makes it much tougher to create goals. On the other hand with AV's there was lots of using people where they excel at and that lead to more goals and less goals at the same time. AV adapted his systems by the time he lost to the blackhawks a second time and he had a full year to instill them in the players in 2010/2011. His system was much more effective then the hawks of waiting for odd man rushes to create goals using speed cause it never allowed these chances to happen cause their best offensive players faced our best defensive with the 3-0 lead in the series it's clear they had no answer for our system(reffing changed everything though). The fact that we had two 1-0 victories with AV speaks volumes.

Tort's system on the other hand relies on everyone to play good defense and execute perfectly cause they are going to be matched with the exact opposite line rather than the weaker line. It offers very little energy left in the tank cause players are forced to create the majority of their goals off the rush and if the rush fails they are skating back the other way exhausted.

Right now from the way New York has adjusted well to AV,has more wins, goals, less talent and our team has failed to adjust under Tort's, has less goals, less wins and more talent. AV>>>>>>>Torts

But this could all change if tort's adjusts something he can do.

[Moonshinefe]

One thing I don't see mentioned as often as it should is: WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH OUR PP? We're 28th in the league for crying out loud. Imagine how many more games we'd win / have a chance to win if we could count on a goal or two from the PP once in a while. We'd be higher than 8th place, that's for sure.

I thought our PP would improve with a new coaching staff but it seems like more of the same since the PP dropped off the map the other year. If the Canucks can jack up their PP somehow we'll be winning far more games.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

One thing I don't see mentioned as often as it should is: WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH OUR PP? We're 28th in the league for crying out loud. Imagine how many more games we'd win / have a chance to win if we could count on a goal or two from the PP once in a while. We'd be higher than 8th place, that's for sure.

I thought our PP would improve with a new coaching staff but it seems like more of the same since the PP dropped off the map the other year. If the Canucks can jack up their PP somehow we'll be winning far more games.

There have been numerous threads discussing Powerplays but this thread discusses even more important issues this team has.