Canuck Surfer Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Nor should we pick Ritchie specifically to "match up" against current big division rival teams. Chicago deals with that by letting Hossa and Toews handle match ups. Their elite talent guys, Sharp and Kane, are put on the ice to score! Not that Hossa cannot score, but you get the point. Similarly, this mentality worked for us with Malhotra and Kesler. And look what happened this year when we tried to toughen up the Twins by making them all everything players. We should be picking Ritchie if we project him to be a match up other teams can't handle, not because we expect him to shut down Getzlaf. His reports say he is improving defensively, but really that's not his forte'. Edit: Big defenders, whom forwards have to fight and battle with to get to the net, are not the issue in our conference. No Chara here, and Weber's team is not a major factor ATM. Anaheim has Maroon, LA King, SJ Thornton and Burns. But these guys are all a challenge for our D, not Ritchie if we pick him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Of course anyone can bust, I think that goes without saying. You don't pass on good players out of fear of them busting though. If that were the case, you'd pass on every player. We also have plenty of players on this team that play a perimeter game. Which is why we need more players that can battle to the net, and fight through big defenders. That is key if a team wants to have success in the Western Conference. Good teams can neutralize speed, they can't neutralize strength and brute force though. Beach is an example of a big forward that busted, but they're not really comparable. Ritchie has a way higher skill level than Beach did. The only reason Beach even went close to the top 10 is because of his size and nastiness. It was widely reported that he had of ice issues though; something that I haven't heard about Ritchie. Drafting down and picking players with even lower liklihood of becoming top line players doesn't make sense either if our goal is to plan for a post-Sedin team. Besides the Sedins and Jensen almost everyone who is a regular player plays on both on the perimeter and in the dirty areas. Montreal beat Boston. Speed and skill beat size and skill. It can make sense if you are getting a 2nd round pick out of it. Many star players have also have been drafted later than 6th in the 1st round. I would rather trade up into the top 5 over every other option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Nor should we pick Ritchie specifically to "match up" against current big division rival teams. Chicago deals with that by letting Hosea and Toes handle match ups. Their elite talent guys, Sharp and Kane, are put on the ice to score! Not that Hosea cannot score, but you get the point. Similarly, this mentality worked for us with Malhotra and Kesler. And look what happened this year when we tried to toughen up the Twins by making them all everything players. We should be picking Ritchie if we project him to be a match up other teams can't handle, not because we expect him to shut down Getzlaf. His reports say he is improving defensively, but really that's not his forte'. I would argue big players that can skate and have skill are tough for any team to match up against, not just teams in our division. If we draft Ritchie it should be with the idea that other teams will have to find ways to shut him down, not so that we can use him to shut down other teams. I would also argue we have drafted the skilled guys in Jensen and Shinkaruk. We need to focus on maximizing their potential. We have also drafted the high end two-way guys in Gaunce and Horvat. That's why I think it would be great to add another big body to go along with Kassian. Then we would have a nice mix of skill and size on every line. Shinkaruk - Horvat - Kassian Ritchie - Gaunce - Jensen Or even load up Kassian and Ritchie on the same line. If those guys reach even close to their potential, that would be a scary duo for any team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Besides the Sedins and Jensen almost everyone who is a regular player plays on both on the perimeter and in the dirty areas. Montreal beat Boston. Speed and skill beat size and skill. It can make sense if you are getting a 2nd round pick out of it. Many star players have also have been drafted later than 6th in the 1st round. I would rather trade up into the top 5 over every other option. The Canucks didn't go to the dirty areas nearly enough last season. Which is a big part of why they failed to score. So because Montreal beats Boston once, the model suddenly changes again? Boston has a combination of size, speed, and skill; something every team needs to win. They're still the best team in the league IMO. I don't think people should ignore the fact that they went to the finals last season, and were probably somewhat burnt out. The difference between the 5th and the 6th pick is not worth giving up what it would cost to move up one spot. Outside of the top 3 there's not a whole lot of separation between 5-10. And one of the top 5 like Draisaitl or Dal Colle could very well fall to 6th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 At the end of the day, I agree regarding Ritchie. As mentioned earlier > as long as his fitness testing at the combine suggests he is fit enough to skate and carry the play all day. A match up problem is worth having. But we should not avoid a skill player because we have Jensen and Shinkaruk. First, they are wingers. Nylander and Ehlers can play centre. More importantly they are play makers and commanding puck possession guys, not just snipers. That's a completely different dimension. Edit: And that dimension is a factor. We don't really have single player who can break down and beat their man most times you put the puck on their stick. The Twins do it in tandem, on the cycle and with smarts. These guys are explosive, and like Keith, Giroux or similar, they are constantly getting away, jumping into seams, drawing dbl teams or just breaking in on goal. If the dbl team arrives, they just pass to the guy who is suddenly in an open lane. We don't have that either, just like we don't have a commanding big guy who goes in the tough area's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 At the end of the day, I agree regarding Ritchie. As mentioned earlier > as long as his fitness testing at the combine suggests he is fit enough to skate and carry the play all day. A match up problem is worth having. But we should not avoid a skill player because we have Jensen and Shinkaruk. First, they are wingers. Nylander and Ehlers can play centre. More importantly they are play makers and commanding puck possession guys, not just snipers. That's a completely different dimension. I can't see Ehlers being a center at the NHL level. Pretty sure he'll be a winger. Nylander is definitely intriguing, but he's got the biggest boom or bust potential for me. If we're looking for a future first line center, I'm not sure this is the draft to do it. Ritchie also has pretty good passing abilities and isn't simply a sniper. He can also hold onto the puck using his big frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Gotta admit: Ritchie / Cassel / Kassian. Sounds a little like Lucic / Krecji / Horton. (over projecting Cassel maybe, but hey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Kassian can pass, that does not make him a play maker. Nor will it Ritchie. There is no inner Jagr in either big man. Before passing, the more important skill is handling the puck, and breaking down the D. A play maker has to handle the puck under pressure all day, and have enough moves to create opportunities for their snipers. Then the vision and passing comes into play. We already need a secondary play maker behind Hank in a big way. And to ultimately replace him. But again I agree. Is a guy available good enough to project as able to do that? In comparison to Ritchie's potential to be a Shanahan?? Its BPA. At the end of the day, scouting will have to make a call as to who is most prepared to be the best player. We can definitely use either skill set if its available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Kassian can pass, that does not make him a play maker. Nor will it Ritchie. There is no inner Jar in either big man. Passian isn't a play maker? I would argue that early on in his time here, but this season he really showed another level of playmaking. Not saying Ritchie will make plays at the level of Henrik, but he can make saucer passes on the rush, and knows how to look for the open man. He's definitely not a puck hog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Sure Kassian makes plays from time to time. So did Shanahan. He still let Oates, Yzerman and Zetterberg handle the puck. His main jobs remained winning the puck in the corner, getting it to the play maker then heading to the net. In Kassian's infamous five goals in (what was it) seven games with the Twins that's what he did. And so it should be. That Shanahan could also convert a play off the rush made him a hall of farmer and all star. But make no mistake, he earned his role and place on the team starting with the fundamentals. If we get excited by a few plays, and let Kassian play on the perimeter his whole career (or Ritchie), it will be a mistake and a near complete waste of the physical tools on offer. I do not believe Kassian, nor Ritchie, have the skills puck handling to take on the NHL did as Jagr did. I'd be more than happy with them being Nathan Horton. Ecstatic if they became Lucic or Shanahan. Just concentrate on being a proper PF and make use of opportunity when it is available. Kassian has 25 career assists to illustrate the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckleHorse Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Besides the Sedins and Jensen almost everyone who is a regular player plays on both on the perimeter and in the dirty areas. Montreal beat Boston. Speed and skill beat size and skill. It can make sense if you are getting a 2nd round pick out of it. Many star players have also have been drafted later than 6th in the 1st round. I would rather trade up into the top 5 over every other option. Top 5 scorers Montreal Pk Subban 6'0 216lbs 12pts Lars Eller 6'2 209lbs 9pts B Gallagher 5'9 178lbs 9pts T Vanek 6'2 205lbs 8pts M Pacioretty 6'2 219lbs 7pts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Top 5 scorers Montreal Pk Subban 6'0 216lbs 12pts Lars Eller 6'2 209lbs 9pts B Gallagher 5'9 178lbs 9pts T Vanek 6'2 205lbs 8pts M Pacioretty 6'2 219lbs 7pts What does that have to do with anything I have said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckleHorse Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 What does that have to do with anything I have said? Montreal's size helped them beat Boston these are the guys that are getting it done the small guy is Canadian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Montreal's size helped them beat Boston these are the guys that are getting it done the small guy is Canadian. I still stand corrected. The Canadiens were still a much faster team than Boston in each of their wins, hence why they won. Boston is still a bigger team and played a lot more physical in that series than the Canadiens did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 The Canucks didn't go to the dirty areas nearly enough last season. Which is a big part of why they failed to score. That and we had key players get injured. We also don't have a lot of depth and offensive minded players besides the Sedins. We also had a defensive coach who only rolled 3 lines, overplayed top players and constantly was switching up his style due to injuries. So because Montreal beats Boston once, the model suddenly changes again? I never said that because of anything to do with any model. Good teams can neutralize speed, they can't neutralize strength and brute force though. I was using it as an example to prove your point wrong. They're still the best team in the league IMO. I believe the best team in the league wins the Stanley cup. one of the top 5 like Draisaitl or Dal Colle could very well fall to 6th. We would be lucky if someone fell from the top 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robongo Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 I believe the best team in the league wins the Stanley cup. Except with todays NHL, the difference between teams is extremely small. A lot of it comes down to health, matchups and you obviously need a bit of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckleHorse Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 I still stand corrected. The Canadiens were still a much faster team than Boston in each of their wins, hence why they won. Boston is still a bigger team and played a lot more physical in that series than the Canadiens did. The Bruins small fast player Marchand had 5 assists and their medium sized player 6'0 188lbs Krejci had 4 assists in these playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absent Canuck Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Nor should we pick Ritchie specifically to "match up" against current big division rival teams. Chicago deals with that by letting Hossa and Toews handle match ups. Their elite talent guys, Sharp and Kane, are put on the ice to score! Not that Hossa cannot score, but you get the point. Similarly, this mentality worked for us with Malhotra and Kesler. And look what happened this year when we tried to toughen up the Twins by making them all everything players. We should be picking Ritchie if we project him to be a match up other teams can't handle, not because we expect him to shut down Getzlaf. His reports say he is improving defensively, but really that's not his forte'. Edit: Big defenders, whom forwards have to fight and battle with to get to the net, are not the issue in our conference. No Chara here, and Weber's team is not a major factor ATM. Anaheim has Maroon, LA King, SJ Thornton and Burns. But these guys are all a challenge for our D, not Ritchie if we pick him... I am all for picking Ritchie if he is the best player left where we draft.. I see him as a best case scenario 25 to 30 goal 60 point power forward. They take a long time to develop but if you can develop one, they are very hard to contain. I always take the best player avail. And that will be Dal Colle, Draisatl , Ehlers or Nylander. To the best of my ability I have looked at what these players can bring and they are the ones I choose at #6. I also look at it from the point of view of a total rebuild and what our needs will be 4 years from now. Drafting a player looking at our line up today is a mistake in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absent Canuck Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 The Bruins small fast player Marchand had 5 assists and their medium sized player 6'0 188lbs Krejci had 4 assists in these playoffs. He might be 188 but the guy is 5ft 9 tops. If he wasnt such a punk I might even like him. He has talent and drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 The Bruins small fast player Marchand had 5 assists and their medium sized player 6'0 188lbs Krejci had 4 assists in these playoffs. You stand corrected but I fail to see how that has to do with anything. Would you elaborate, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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