CHL. Would you support it?

[skolozsy2]

That was CBS who demanded 2 teams in California or no TV deal.

Okay....so the honorable guys who basically started the process to "Americanize" the NHL. Anyway you want to describe it, it still shows that the NHL was trying to expand into the US and catering to TV execs demands well before Gary Bettman.

And you're right, two California teams was a CBS demand...St. Louis, Pitt, and Philly were not though, and CBS didnt say no expansion to Canada, that was the league's decision. Expanding teams into US cities over Canadian cities is not some new phenomenon, its been like that since the league started.

[skolozsy2]

There is a level of viciousness in todays game the 74 Flyers would cringe at, I've seen plenty of pre 70's games, nowhere near as violent as today.

Its really a matter of opinion, but after watching the HBO documentary "Broad Street Bullies", which specifically focused on those Flyers teams, I disagree.

Clarence Campbell re-wrote the rulebook because of that team. Those guys were animals.

Speaking of Clarence Campbell, didnt he get in trouble for bribing a Canadian senator or something like that, cant remember exactly.

[Bill Sikes]

Its really a matter of opinion, but after watching the HBO documentary "Broad Street Bullies", which specifically focused on those Flyers teams, I disagree.

Clarence Campbell re-wrote the rulebook because of that team. Those guys were animals.

Speaking of Clarence Campbell, didnt he get in trouble for bribing a Canadian senator or something like that, cant remember exactly.

I grew up watching that team and the Big Bad Bruins, lots of fights sure, but not the level of stickwork or hits from behind I see now, or the flying elbows to the head we see regularly these days.

[Bill Sikes]

Okay....so the honorable guys who basically started the process to "Americanize" the NHL. Anyway you want to describe it, it still shows that the NHL was trying to expand into the US and catering to TV execs demands well before Gary Bettman.

And you're right, two California teams was a CBS demand...St. Louis, Pitt, and Philly were not though, and CBS didnt say no expansion to Canada, that was the league's decision. Expanding teams into US cities over Canadian cities is not some new phenomenon, its been like that since the league started.

Pittsburgh, Philly and St Louis all had teams before the Double whammy of the Great Depression and WWII killed them (along with the Montreal Maroons, Ottawa Senators and New York Americans) leaving the mis-named original six, so it wasnt a stretch to return, Minnesota is where most of the US players came from so again not a bad choice. I just think the NHL has expanded too fast, catered too much to know nothing TV execs and not listened to the people who are the core audience and know the game inside out and backwards to pander to the bandwagoners who will disappear as soon as a new fad takes root.

[Neko]

The 70's Bruins and Flyers were the answer to stacked teams with no salary cap, and it had to be done to make the league change the game.

[awalk]

There is a level of viciousness in todays game the 74 Flyers would cringe at, I've seen plenty of pre 70's games, nowhere near as violent as today.

Everything I saw from hockey during that time makes me disagree with you. But that is a matter of subjective opinion. The conditions surrounding the league, ie the treatment of players, their salaries, the travel, the scheduling, the racism/xenophobia vs french canadians, all of that is well documented. Romanticizing the past is fun, but also dangerous.

[skolozsy2]

Pittsburgh, Philly and St Louis all had teams before the Double whammy of the Great Depression and WWII killed them (along with the Montreal Maroons, Ottawa Senators and New York Americans) leaving the mis-named original six, so it wasnt a stretch to return, Minnesota is where most of the US players came from so again not a bad choice. I just think the NHL has expanded too fast, catered too much to know nothing TV execs and not listened to the people who are the core audience and know the game inside out and backwards to pander to the bandwagoners who will disappear as soon as a new fad takes root.

I dont disagree with anything you're saying.

I think we are both on the same page regarding this specific subject and are actually just debating semantics now.

Expansions, relocations, and defunct teams have occurred since the creation of hockey leagues. Good decisions, bad decisions, right decisions, and wrong ones...its a problem all leagues in all sports have endured and will continue to endure. So sometimes it gets irritating to hear how right now the league is worse off than its ever been. (Not claiming thats what you said or are saying, its just an impression I get when reading topics similar to this one.)

[Bill Sikes]

I dont disagree with anything you're saying.

I think we are both on the same page regarding this specific subject and are actually just debating semantics now.

Expansions, relocations, and defunct teams have occurred since the creation of hockey leagues. Good decisions, bad decisions, right decisions, and wrong ones...its a problem all leagues in all sports have endured and will continue to endure. So sometimes it gets irritating to hear how right now the league is worse off than its ever been. (Not claiming thats what you said or are saying, its just an impression I get when reading topics similar to this one.)

On the topic of a CHL I would support it although I doubt it would get anywhere unless for some reason the Habs and Leafs left the NHL and joined, then it might stand a chance. As for todays game I don't liike it as much as the 70's and 80's. I see too much head hunting and low bridge go for the knees. I feel the game is too structured now, players aren't allowed creative freedom to do what they are good at, they are told to "play the system" from the time they step on the ice at 5 years old. If Gretzky played today his coach would be harping at him to play his position and be more responsible in his own end.

[skolozsy2]

On the topic of a CHL I would support it although I doubt it would get anywhere unless for some reason the Habs and Leafs left the NHL and joined, then it might stand a chance. As for todays game I don't liike it as much as the 70's and 80's. I see too much head hunting and low bridge go for the knees. I feel the game is too structured now, players aren't allowed creative freedom to do what they are good at, they are told to "play the system" from the time they step on the ice at 5 years old. If Gretzky played today his coach would be harping at him to play his position and be more responsible in his own end.

I agree, without Montreal, Toronto, or the rest of the Canadian teams, a CHL has no chance. And since those teams aren't leaving the NHL, whether we will support it or not is irrelevant.

As for the 70's and 80's style versus today, some things are better and some things are worse. There is more defensive structure, but more individual creativity on offense.

But I'll be honest, I'm a Hawks fan...our d1ckhead owner blacked out our games. We didnt get to see many out-of-market games...hell, I didn't see the Hawks play a home game on TV til I was 30! (That's Bill Wirtz for ya) So a player could have stabbed another player in a Philly-Rangers game back then and we'd never know about it.

[Chalky]

The CFL is like a "minor league" compared to the NFL. I don't think any of the Canadian franchises want to be downgraded to a league like that.

The NHL does have a lot of problems but it is still one of the top four sports leagues on North America. It'd be great to have teams in Canada winning the cup, but most of the players who win are Canadian and bring the cup back to Canada anyways. To me it's not really that big of a deal.

The CFL is the second largest football league globally behind the NFL. I have debated (on both sides of the argument) the validity of adopting the American rules and making the CFL a true "minor league". Deep down, I still love our game more (yup, I'm the minority opinion) and I really like having our own identity. Having said that, I would love to see a Canadian specific hockey league. I've said for many years that I really don't care about the NHL itself, I care about hockey, and if the NHL ever failed there would be hockey in Canada with the same level of talent as there is now...the players would definitely make less money. I agree it is not a big deal, no matter what, Canada will always get to watch the best live hockey.

[awalk]

The CFL is the second largest football league globally behind the NFL. I have debated (on both sides of the argument) the validity of adopting the American rules and making the CFL a true "minor league". Deep down, I still love our game more (yup, I'm the minority opinion) and I really like having our own identity. Having said that, I would love to see a Canadian specific hockey league. I've said for many years that I really don't care about the NHL itself, I care about hockey, and if the NHL ever failed there would be hockey in Canada with the same level of talent as there is now...the players would definitely make less money. I agree it is not a big deal, no matter what, Canada will always get to watch the best live hockey.

It's not really that much of a claim to fame to the be the second largest football league when you are on the only continent that contains legitimate leagues. Europe has tried but the majority of what you see there is complete disinterest in gridiron.

CFL is really fun, entertaining football...I love the rules compared to the NFL. But damn it gets boring watching the same teams play each other over and over and over and over again.

Majority of the best Canadian hockey players already play in the U.S. An all Canadian league would be screwed when all the top players get lured to the states for better money and far greater availability of all things consumption related.

[Bill Sikes]

I think if the Canadian teams left and formed their own league it would kill BOTH leagues. The US league would collapse without the Canadian reveue streams. Now if the Canadian teams along with a handfull of strong US based teams (NYR, ChI, Det, Bos, Phil, Stl, Min) were to get sick of supporting lame ducks and form a new league that would be something to see.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Should have started about 20 yrs back:

Northern league: Vancouver, Victoria, Cal, Edm, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, TO, Hamilton, Ottawa, Quebec, Montreal, Eastern Canada(they could play in Halifax, or NB)

South: About 12 valid, INVESTED US cities(NOT fair-weather sunbelt, welfare-locations)

Each league has a requirement for nationality. Northern league needs at least 14 players hailing from Canada.

Southern league, at least 10~12 US players. Aim to increase this number, as US increases involvement in youth hockey.

Have a lower level league, so relegation is possible for the worst team.

Champions of these two leagues play for the Cup.

The intensity of 'Canada Cup' tourneys(& 1996-style world cup) would be more prevalent, by encouraging both leagues to emphasize native players.

Eventually could have dealt in a Euro league. If they'd adapt their rules, their champion could also compete for the Cup.

Feature the different styles of NA'n vs European teams.

edit-pointless to compare notion to CFL football. Only useful if half of NFL's players came from up north.

Hockey should have looked at world football (soccer) for how to grow what WAS a compelling, exciting product. Simultaneously, they should have eliminated the goonery, & adapted rules to bring out the offensive creativity & skill.

[skolozsy2]

Should have started about 20 yrs back:

Northern league: Vancouver, Victoria, Cal, Edm, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, TO, Hamilton, Ottawa, Quebec, Montreal, Eastern Canada(they could play in Halifax, or NB)

South: About 12 valid, INVESTED US cities(NOT fair-weather sunbelt, welfare-locations)

Each league has a requirement for nationality. Northern league needs at least 14 players hailing from Canada.

Southern league, at least 10~12 US players. Aim to increase this number, as US increases involvement in youth hockey.

Have a lower level league, so relegation is possible for the worst team.

Champions of these two leagues play for the Cup.

The intensity of 'Canada Cup' tourneys(& 1996-style world cup) would be more prevalent, by encouraging both leagues to emphasize native players.

Eventually could have dealt in a Euro league. If they'd adapt their rules, their champion could also compete for the Cup.

Feature the different styles of NA'n vs European teams.

edit-pointless to compare notion to CFL football. Only useful if half of NFL's players came from up north.

Hockey should have looked at world football (soccer) for how to grow what WAS a compelling, exciting product. Simultaneously, they should have eliminated the goonery, & adapted rules to bring out the offensive creativity & skill.

"Southern league, atleast 10-12 US hockey players. Aim to increase this number, as US increases in youth involvement."

How do you propose USA Hockey increase youth involvement? Do you really understand the disadvantage that hockey faces against other youth sports in the US? Do you also realize how much the NHL has invested in USA youth hockey under Gary Bettman to try and increase involvement?

[Nuxfanabroad]

Propose is the wrong verb..did that 20 yrs ago, & she's STILL beautiful.

I'd suggest they provide for whatever sport the people(regionally) want..but I don't really give a hoot, anyways.

Far bigger issues in the world. But rest assured, I SAID these sorta' things 20 yrs back, but there's no links for random conversations in Tim Ho's, way back when...

[skolozsy2]

Propose is the wrong verb..did that 20 yrs ago, & she's STILL beautiful.

I'd suggest they provide for whatever sport the people(regionally) want..but I don't really give a hoot, anyways.

Far bigger issues in the world. But rest assured, I SAID these sorta' things 20 yrs back, but there's no links for random conversations in Tim Ho's, way back when...

I hope you understand that I'm not being confrontational, but educational. Many Canadians dont realize how hard it really is to grow the sport of hockey in the US, or realize just how much youth hockey has actually grown in the last 20 years. It takes a long time to really grow a fanbase in this sport, and the NHL has done it the right way...building through youth.

Face it, no commissioner is going to be able suddenly get a 40 year old football fanatic to start being a hockey fan. Ain't happening. What they can do is get that 40 year old's son interested in hockey. From someone who makes a living in the youth hockey industry, thats not as easy as it sounds.

I'm gonna throw some numbers at you, these are our cities youth sports fees.

Basketball: House-$60/season. Travel-$140. Equipment required: shoes($50) Everything else provided.

Baseball: House-$50. Travel-$120. Equipment required: Glove, cleats.($100) E/E/P.

Football: House-$90. Travel-$210. Equipment required: mouthgard, cleats, jock ($100) E/E/P

Soccer: House-$70. Travel-$150. Equipment required: shin pads, cleats ($75) E/E/P

Hockey: House-$1100. Travel-$5300. Equipment required: helmet, mouthguard, neck guard, shoulder pads, elbow pads, skates, sticks, sharpenings, etc... (</>$1000+)

You see the huge disadvantage...10 years of travel hockey is a college tuition.

Hockey is not an easy sell in the US. All NHL teams contribute free equipment to their communities and make massive donations throughout all the youth leagues in their area. The NHL has made FAR more strides in growing the game in the 15 years than ever before.

And its showing in the youth involvement. 20 years ago you never heard of youth teams in California, Texas, Florida...now there are literally hundreds of teams in these states. Chicago hosts the largest youth hockey tournament in the world, Nike Bauer Hockey, and its amazing to see how many more teams from new areas participate every year.

Hockey is growing in the US, but it starts with the youth...and it takes time before that youth becomes ticket-buying adults.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Skolozsy,

Appreciate the reply, & it's certainly a valid point, you put forth. When you get down to the nuts & bolts, economics, & assorted issues connected to participation, afraid I've already gone bleary-eyed. Elitism & cash have a long history in this sport, & probably always will.

I can't say at all what Americans should do with regards to ice hockey..but I really don't like what I've seen happen to the NHL game, since the BOG planted this sneaky little lawyer in HQ's, to do their dirty work.

"Grow the game" always meant NOTHING to me. It's like trying to motivate eskimoes(can I still use this word?!) to take up surfing.

My opinions may be radical, but to me, sports(overall) has become too much about business. It's a societal pattern, that achieves many objectives all at once. I keep informed on hockey, whilst living abroad; but they haven't got a red nickel from me in decades. Thus, I'd assume to the NHL, opinions like mine have no VALUE..they know a lot about this word, it appears.

When nostalgia's all you're left with, the establishment will try to market memories.

[skolozsy2]

Skolozsy,

Appreciate the reply, & it's certainly a valid point, you put forth. When you get down to the nuts & bolts, economics, & assorted issues connected to participation, afraid I've already gone bleary-eyed. Elitism & cash have a long history in this sport, & probably always will.

I can't say at all what Americans should do with regards to ice hockey..but I really don't like what I've seen happen to the NHL game, since the BOG planted this sneaky little lawyer in HQ's, to do their dirty work.

"Grow the game" always meant NOTHING to me. It's like trying to motivate eskimoes(can I still use this word?!) to take up surfing.

My opinions may be radical, but to me, sports(overall) has become too much about business. It's a societal pattern, that achieves many objectives all at once. I keep informed on hockey, whilst living abroad; but they haven't got a red nickel from me in decades. Thus, I'd assume to the NHL, opinions like mine have no VALUE..they know a lot about this word, it appears.

When nostalgia's all you're left with, the establishment will try to market memories.

And I don't necessarily disagree with most of your complaints. I think business has ruined sports as well, not just hockey but all sports. Salaries are astronomical, agents have become worse than lawyers, you cant build a new arena in any sport for less than $500 million...my season tickets in 2009 were $650/seat. Next year its $2200 for the same seats...no better view, or extra cushioning in my seat, or free soda, just a nice 300% increase in 7 years. But it what it is...money is power.

And lets not kid ourselves, if a CHL ever did succeed, it wouldn't take long before it became saturated with same issues the NHL faces. The more money the league would make, the more the league would make decisions based on money rather than the sport. Greed conquers all.

[Bill Sikes]

I hope you understand that I'm not being confrontational, but educational. Many Canadians dont realize how hard it really is to grow the sport of hockey in the US, or realize just how much youth hockey has actually grown in the last 20 years. It takes a long time to really grow a fanbase in this sport, and the NHL has done it the right way...building through youth.

Face it, no commissioner is going to be able suddenly get a 40 year old football fanatic to start being a hockey fan. Ain't happening. What they can do is get that 40 year old's son interested in hockey. From someone who makes a living in the youth hockey industry, thats not as easy as it sounds.

I'm gonna throw some numbers at you, these are our cities youth sports fees.

Basketball: House-$60/season. Travel-$140. Equipment required: shoes($50) Everything else provided.

Baseball: House-$50. Travel-$120. Equipment required: Glove, cleats.($100) E/E/P.

Football: House-$90. Travel-$210. Equipment required: mouthgard, cleats, jock ($100) E/E/P

Soccer: House-$70. Travel-$150. Equipment required: shin pads, cleats ($75) E/E/P

Hockey: House-$1100. Travel-$5300. Equipment required: helmet, mouthguard, neck guard, shoulder pads, elbow pads, skates, sticks, sharpenings, etc... (</>$1000+)

You see the huge disadvantage...10 years of travel hockey is a college tuition.

Hockey is not an easy sell in the US. All NHL teams contribute free equipment to their communities and make massive donations throughout all the youth leagues in their area. The NHL has made FAR more strides in growing the game in the 15 years than ever before.

And its showing in the youth involvement. 20 years ago you never heard of youth teams in California, Texas, Florida...now there are literally hundreds of teams in these states. Chicago hosts the largest youth hockey tournament in the world, Nike Bauer Hockey, and its amazing to see how many more teams from new areas participate every year.

Hockey is growing in the US, but it starts with the youth...and it takes time before that youth becomes ticket-buying adults.

It is especially hard to sell in places like Arizona, Texas & Florida, when you can't build a rink in the back yard for the kids to play, or walk to a public out door rink and play for free with only a pair of skates and a stick needed, there is a reason most of the American players come from Minnesota, Michigan, New England states.

[Gollumpus]

The CFL is the second largest football league globally behind the NFL. I have debated (on both sides of the argument) the validity of adopting the American rules and making the CFL a true "minor league". Deep down, I still love our game more (yup, I'm the minority opinion) and I really like having our own identity. Having said that, I would love to see a Canadian specific hockey league. I've said for many years that I really don't care about the NHL itself, I care about hockey, and if the NHL ever failed there would be hockey in Canada with the same level of talent as there is now...the players would definitely make less money. I agree it is not a big deal, no matter what, Canada will always get to watch the best live hockey.

Isn't that a lot like someone saying Canada has the second largest fleet in North America (I think we're ahead of Mexico)?

Otherwise, I do agree with you. I do enjoy the CFL game more than the NFL game. If they could magically expand/adapt the NFL stadiums to be able to play by CFL rules, then I suspect that the NFL would become even more popular (globally) than it is currently.

regards,

G.