-AJ- Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 NO TEAMS have tried to fail and ended up winning EVER. Please find an instance of it and prove me wrong.I'm not a proponent of tanking by any means (see my above post), but would the Penguins of '84 count? Many people apparently thought they intentionally lost games to fall below the Devils and get the #1 pick for Lemieux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I'm not a proponent of tanking by any means (see my above post), but would the Penguins of '84 count? Many people apparently thought they intentionally lost games to fall below the Devils and get the #1 pick for Lemieux.The problem is, unless if it's outright confessed by the tanking party, it's only going to be speculation that a team has purposely tanked. Therefore, it's kind of hard to claim or not claim that a team has tanked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 The problem is, unless if it's outright confessed by the tanking party, it's only going to be speculation that a team has purposely tanked. Therefore, it's kind of hard to claim or not claim that a team has tanked.True. Does that sort of make the whole argument unfalsifiable then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 True. Does that sort of make the whole argument unfalsifiable then? Pretty much. There's so little fact to work on that it's really a bunch of opinions flying at each other aside from what we know with the draft positions and who's won the cups. Yet, even then, if we don't actually know if they tanked, we can't even prove that those facts are even helpful. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 I'm not a proponent of tanking by any means (see my above post), but would the Penguins of '84 count? Many people apparently thought they intentionally lost games to fall below the Devils and get the #1 pick for Lemieux.No, because they were not in the same position as us at all. I previously stated that there are plenty of cases of teams at the bottom of the standings very near the end of the season not putting their best roster in the ice to improve their odds of moving up a spot or two in the draft. "Fail for Nail" "Fall for Hall" etc are a real phenomenon, and that is why the league changed the lottery rules.Trying to move from 29th to 30th in the league in the last 5 games of a season comes nowhere near any definition of tanking that people are proposing here. Those teams and their seasons are already a completely lost cause by that point and they have zero chance of winning. What people here are saying is that a playoff team like ours or even a team that has a solid chance of getting into the playoffs should turn itself into one of those bottom 5 teams by intentionally making itself unable to compete for an extended period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamasutra Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Well said. But not only that, with this city's fickle fans, losing would mean 1/2 empty arena in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 No, because they were not in the same position as us at all. I previously stated that there are plenty of cases of teams at the bottom of the standings very near the end of the season not putting their best roster in the ice to improve their odds of moving up a spot or two in the draft. "Fail for Nail" etc are a real phenomenon, and that is why the league changed the lottery rules.Trying to move from 29th to 30th in the league in the last 5 games of a season comes nowhere near any definition of tanking that people are proposing here. Those teams and their seasons are already a completely lost cause by that point and they have zero chance of winning. What people here are saying is that a playoff team like ours or even a team that has a solid chance of getting into the playoffs should turn itself into one of those bottom 5 teams by intentionally making itself unable to compete for an extended period of time.Valid points. While we will be in tough to make the playoffs, it's still a very real possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukoncanuck87 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I almost totally agree other then number 1. The Oilers have been losing for years yet they seem to attract more free agent talent like Shultz who's from BC, pouliot, Hendricks sekera the list goes on look at Buffalo, Tampa, islanders all these teams can attract stars but we can't. The only way the Canucks get elite talent is overpaying for it as sad as it is. Eg. Miller vrbata. And the way we value players by giving them over sized contract is ridiculous as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 Did we really need another thread to try and convince people who won't read it about why we won't full on tank? The don't care about your direct replies in the other threads where they suggest it, why would this thread change their minds?Judging by the number of views and posts over a few hours... apparently the answer is yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocanucks1916 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Every time I hear someone suggest that we tank, I feel a little bit sick. That's not what hockey's about. It's not a winner's mentality. Plus it's not even a very good strategy. Half the teams that (allegedly) try it end up sucking for 10 years or more.I can't even think about the Oilers, for example, without getting angry. I remember when they had players like Doug Weight and Ryan Smyth. That team brought it every night. They played with pride. The current incarnation of the Oilers is an embarrassment. I hope karma gets them and their young players are all either busts or they leave the team for greener pastures.And shame on the NHL for giving teams an incentive to lose games. The draft order should be randomized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jejejester Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 my earlier post before th draft one was about how as canucks fans we can't argue against having top 5 picks, since they hav been a recipe to our teams greatest successes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 And shame on the NHL for giving teams an incentive to lose games. The draft order should be randomized.Personally, I feel that with the changes over the last two years, they've done enough to mitigate the incentive to tank in a season. Buffalo felt it last year and more teams will continue to feel it in coming years. The chance of getting a #1 pick is so far from sure now that it's just not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 my earlier post before th draft one was about how as canucks fans we can't argue against having top 5 picks, since they hav been a recipe to our teams greatest successes.I'd agree that we can't argue that having top 5 picks is nice, but I think we can agree that it's not necessary for success. While we have had top picks for our greatest seasons, they weren't the only great players we had. Not only that, but we didn't specifically tank while having a half-decent team. We had terrible teams and rightly got high draft picks. Currently, we are not close to being a team in contention for a top 3 pick. The playoffs, while still unsure, are a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 And shame on the NHL for giving teams an incentive to lose games. The draft order should be randomized.To be fair, at least the draft does help out the teams that need the help by being low in the standings. I like what they're done already. I don't feel completely randomizing it would make sense as very good teams could get better from the draft getting a top 5 pick while the worst teams could just get worse. It would recreate a gap in the competition which they've worked at thinning out over the past 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
250Integra Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I almost totally agree other then number 1. The Oilers have been losing for years yet they seem to attract more elite free agent talent like Shultz who's from BC, pouliot, Hendricks the list goes on look at Buffalo to. The only way the Canucks get elite talent is overpaying for it as sad as it is. Eg. Miller vrbata. And the way we value players by giving them over sized contract is ridiculous as well.LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocanucks1916 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 To be fair, at least the draft does help out the teams that need the help by being low in the standings. I like what they're done already. I don't feel completely randomizing it would make sense as very good teams could get better from the draft getting a top 5 pick while the worst teams could just get worse. It would recreate a gap in the competition which they've worked at thinning out over the past 10 years.They have made a lot of progress with the lottery changes, but if the draft order were totally randomized, you'd have a completely level playing field. In the long-run, the only way to gain a competitive advantage would be good scouting and development programs. Isn't that what we'd all prefer? Sure, once in a while a cup contender would luck out and get a top-5 pick, but isn't that better than watching teams lose on purpose? Pre-salary cap I thought the draft system made some sense because the rich teams had such a massive advantage in the free agency market. The draft was a way for poor teams to get good players too. That's not really as big a problem anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovesLikeDatsyuk Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 We Simply need to find our Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the late rounds of the draft and we are good to go :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 LOL. I was trying to come up with an appropriate response to his post. That works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 They have made a lot of progress with the lottery changes, but if the draft order were totally randomized, you'd have a completely level playing field. In the long-run, the only way to gain a competitive advantage would be good scouting and development programs. Isn't that what we'd all prefer? Sure, once in a while a cup contender would luck out and get a top-5 pick, but isn't that better than watching teams lose on purpose? Pre-salary cap I thought the draft system made some sense because the rich teams had such a massive advantage in the free agency market. The draft was a way for poor teams to get good players too. That's not really as big a problem anymore.The problem is you generally never see a Crosby or a Stamkos traded unless if under an extreme circumstance. Could you imagine Chicago getting McDavid? Could you imagine Anaheim getting Eichel? Both teams would then have a loaded team PLUS a future superstar to add to the mix. It would literally create another Colorado of the late 90's. It would be the equivilant of having a lineup where you overpaid superstars because you have more money, only in this case you have a combination of superstars and a top 5 draft pick.Sure, such a team would have cap problems in the future, but their future superstar has 3 years under an entry level contract.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearditall Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Anybody who supports intentionally tanking is simply not a fan of sports. Period.If any of them played any type of competitive sports they would NEVER say that.I played competitive sports throughout my life & so are my kids now. Never did I play on a team that didn't try to win every game no matter who your opponent was whether it was hockey, soccer or more of an individual sport in martial arts. Same goes with my kids from atom hockey to junior hockey now, never did I see his team intentionally lose ever. Competitive players especially the elite (Pro NHL Players) never in their lives played to lose. They never would be where they are today if they EVER felt that in their blood. Just not in a Pro's DNA. That goes for the Coaches, GM's, Presidents and the rest of the Staff that got to this level as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.