PassittoBoeser Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 14 minutes ago, higgyfan said: Yes, TB need to be a contender right away and I think CT would help them along. They have ++ high end forwards, so they may not be able to protect their top dmen. If they lose Stralman or Sustr in the ED they will be desperate for a top 4 rh dman. The issue becomes for us, what does Tampa have that is attractive coming back given they've traded Drouin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 12 minutes ago, appleboy said: It doesn't look like our management will do squat. Disagree, I think your management team will use their picks and not make silly moves that disrupt the excellent draft positions they have in the first 100ish picks. I also think they will avoid dumb moves that weaken their growth plan - that is a LOT. Doing squat would be making a lot of fanboi moves just for the sake of making moves. If they are your team, you don't want them making a bunch of stupid moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleboy Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 34 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Disagree, I think your management team will use their picks and not make silly moves that disrupt the excellent draft positions they have in the first 100ish picks. I also think they will avoid dumb moves that weaken their growth plan - that is a LOT. Doing squat would be making a lot of fanboi moves just for the sake of making moves. If they are your team, you don't want them making a bunch of stupid moves. That still adds up to squat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassittoBoeser Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, higgyfan said: I don't think Tanev alone gets a top 4 pick. Would the Canucks trade their #5 for a Tanev-like player? I would hope not. Still, considering that many scouts have been saying that the picks in the teens could be as good as the 4-9 overall, it still makes sense for JB to search out a trade. There are some very good players in the 12-18 range for sure. I am so hoping that JB can get something done with TB and then pick the bpa. Even the Toronto or Boston picks will likely be players with good potential. I would also be fine if they decide to keep Chris for the upcoming season and then trade him to a contender at the deadline for a similar pick in the 2018 draft. Gives the team another year closer to having fully developed d prospects. I would agree with you in principle but you are missing some key variables A . Before this lottery system, the worst teams picked the highest so most were in need of youth and potential as clearly a rebuild is in order B. Some of the teams at the top end (Dallas and Philly) got lucky in the lottery and are actually in a "Win Now" scenario but need some key pieces - particularly Defense. They are both playoff teams if healthy and playing well and will be for a number of years. They want a cup, their windows are open right now. C. This draft is by no means 'exceptional' Those issues have to factor into the process of who will give up what for Tanev. Your comment and Robb Zepp's are implicitly ignoring these important nuances. Dallas is not rebuilding, they could very well value Tanev more than the 3rd pick this year if he means they have a shot at a cup by his addition to their lineup Edited June 17, 2017 by PassittoBoeser 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BananaMash Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 On 2017-06-16 at 7:35 AM, PassittoBoeser said: If Gradin thinks that highly of Petterson, I'm fine with it. Gradin is one our best scouts - when has he gone wrong with a high Swedish pick? Never. Ohlund the Sedins, Edler (say what you will but he's been a horse for us). etc...Gradin does his work and if we go 'off the board' its for a reason. He also apparently pushed hard that we take Nylander and not Virtanen, and we all see how that's turned out (so far, hopefully Jake gets himself back on track). Petterson would be a bit off the board, but I have a sneaking suspicion he might end up being the best player outside of the top two. His development will most likely be a little slower than a Glass or Vilardi, but his skill-set is undeniable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassittoBoeser Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BananaMash said: He also apparently pushed hard that we take Nylander and not Virtanen, and we all see how that's turned out (so far, hopefully Jake gets himself back on track). Petterson would be a bit off the board, but I have a sneaking suspicion he might end up being the best player outside of the top two. His development will most likely be a little slower than a Glass or Vilardi, but his skill-set is undeniable. Yes I recall that as well. Regardless, I think if we get Virtanen straightened out, he will actually bring a valuable and rare skillset to our team. Much moreso than Nylander. I think Nylander's numbers were inflated by alot of PP time and playing with Matthews. He would not have been the same player with us, but not denying his talent. That being said, with Goldobin, Dahlen, Baer, Granlund, skill is less of an issue for us and Virtanen adds a unique dimension, that will be immensely valuable in the playoffs. The key is his commitment to be a pro and how he develops. Edited June 17, 2017 by PassittoBoeser 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 55 minutes ago, appleboy said: That still adds up to squat. You need a new dictionary. Have a nice day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgyfan Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 42 minutes ago, PassittoBoeser said: I would agree with you in principle but you are missing some key variables A . Before this lottery system, the worst teams picked the highest so most were in need of youth and potential as clearly a rebuild is in order B. Some of the teams at the top end (Dallas and Philly) got lucky in the lottery and are actually in a "Win Now" scenario but need some key pieces - particularly Defense. They are both playoff teams if healthy and playing well and will be for a number of years. They want a cup, their windows are open right now. C. This draft is by no means 'exceptional' Those issues have to factor into the process of who will give up what for Tanev. Your comment and Robb Zepp's are implicitly ignoring these important nuances. Dallas is not rebuilding, they could very well value Tanev more than the 3rd pick this year if he means they have a shot at a cup by his addition to their lineup I don't recall ever using the word 'exceptional' when talking about the upcoming draft. What I have said, is that there are still a lot of good picks after the 9th overall (between 10-18); in some cases, just as highly regarded as the candidates before them. As you have likely noticed, the rankings are all over the place other than the 1st and 2nd. Nobody seems to know where these prospects will end up. Dallas may not be rebuilding, but they are a long way from being a contender. I think just making the playoffs would be their target. I agree that CT would be as good step in that direction, I just don't think the Stars throw away a 3rd overall pick to acquire him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassittoBoeser Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, higgyfan said: I don't recall ever using the word 'exceptional' when talking about the upcoming draft. What I have said, is that there are still a lot of good picks after the 9th overall (between 10-18); in some cases, just as highly regarded as the candidates before them. As you have likely noticed, the rankings are all over the place other than the 1st and 2nd. Nobody seems to know where these prospects will end up. Dallas may not be rebuilding, but they are a long way from being a contender. I think just making the playoffs would be their target. I agree that CT would be as good step in that direction, I just don't think the Stars throw away a 3rd overall pick to acquire him. I never said you said it was exceptional, I was stating that you are implicitly overvaluing a 3rd overall pick in this draft. In a strong year, a player like Vilardi would be a 10-15 pick for instance. As for long way from contender? Dallas was expected to be top 4 in the West this year but had an awful year with injuries and their defense and goaltending was awful. It's why they brought in Bishop and a defensive oriented coach. Not sure what sport you're watching but in 2015/16 Dallas was FIRST in the Western Conference with 109 pts and SECOND IN THE NHL behind only Washington who had a crazy year Dallas had 50 - FIFTY wins the year prior sir, they had a really BAD / OFF year, they are in win now and are a contender if they stay healthy and fix their defensive issues. They've corrected goaltending for a reason And by the way, the year prior they had 92 points (and while they missed the playoffs, it was by 7 points and 41 wins is nothing to scoff at) Clearly the trend was up and this year was a mulligan, in fact they were 12-1 odds for 2016/17 as winners of the cup http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2666673-stanley-cup-odds-for-every-nhl-team-at-start-of-2016-17-nhl-season Fifth highest odds to win in 2016/2017 - odds makers had them in 'win now' sir http://www.inquisitr.com/3588417/nhl-stanley-cup-odds-2017-chicago-blackhawks-tampa-bay-lightning-early-favorites/ Edited June 17, 2017 by PassittoBoeser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messier's_elbow Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 7 hours ago, scheif16 said: If we get the 3rd overall from dallas. A lot of people prefer a combination of - vilardi / glass / mittelstadt -makar / heiskanen / liljegren What if we would take Vilardi at 3 and Glass at 5. We would definately solve the C problem with these selections. The best situation would be Glass in the middle and Vilardi ( plays Center or winger) on the wing. If Glass ( compared to Scheifele / Johansen) isn't our future 1st line C, we would still have Vilardi as an option. Future Top 6 Vilardi Glass Boeser Baertschi Horvat Dahlen We could use our 2nd 3rd & 4th round picks for D selections, as well as the 2018 1st round ( Dahl.....) This is exactly what we should do if we get the 3rd overall as well. Those actually look like lines we could win with. I'm a big Vilardi and I like Glass as well. Pick a defenceman next draft. If we got 3rd overall I have a feeling Benning would take Makar though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messier's_elbow Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 4 hours ago, Sugar baby watermelon said: it will go Patrick, Hischier, Vilardi, Glass..... then who do the Canucks take lol? middlestadt, pettersson, makar or heiskanen If that's the case which I doubt, I'd take Heiskanen without hesitation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleboy Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 11 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: You need a new dictionary. Have a nice day! It has many meanings such as to have a seat or to sit down. Put it with the word diddly and it means "nothing". That is exactly what our management team did. Hopefully they will do a lot better at the draft table. We are already in good shape for the expansion draft so it is not a big loss. This is the time of year when we get to see if they are truly in a rebuild or if they will revert to build on the fly system. As a fan ( (not sure what you are ) I would like to see a clear direction. If we are in rebuild then lets do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honky Cat Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 minute ago, messier's_elbow said: If that's the case which I doubt, I'd take Heiskanen without hesitation. That would be the most prudent move...as an asset,Heiskanen brings top value...Sergachev got Drouin,which demonstrates that even a 'potential' top pairing D,has a lot of value. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, appleboy said: It has many meanings such as to have a seat or to sit down. Put it with the word diddly and it means "nothing". That is exactly what our management team did. Hopefully they will do a lot better at the draft table. We are already in good shape for the expansion draft so it is not a big loss. This is the time of year when we get to see if they are truly in a rebuild or if they will revert to build on the fly system. As a fan ( (not sure what you are ) I would like to see a clear direction. If we are in rebuild then lets do it! If you are rebuild mode, you DON'T make a bunch of crap trades and you USE all your own draft picks. IF you can make trades to improve your number of picks or can obtain prospects, you make those deals BUT all other 30 teams are trying to do similar things. If the Canucks use their picks and do not make any stupid trades, that is not "doing nothing", it is actually pretty active and precisely how you rebuild. "Your" management team as you keep calling it, is finally on the right track and you seem to be criticizing them for not making some of the knee jerk moves that other teams have done and kept themselves mediocre versus embracing an actual rebuild. You cannot have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleboy Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: If you are rebuild mode, you DON'T make a bunch of crap trades and you USE all your own draft picks. IF you can make trades to improve your number of picks or can obtain prospects, you make those deals BUT all other 30 teams are trying to do similar things. If the Canucks use their picks and do not make any stupid trades, that is not "doing nothing", it is actually pretty active and precisely how you rebuild. "Your" management team as you keep calling it, is finally on the right track and you seem to be criticizing them for not making some of the knee jerk moves that other teams have done and kept themselves mediocre versus embracing an actual rebuild. You cannot have it both ways. Just keeping the normal allotment of picks is not making moves to improve for the future. It means you are staying status quo. If they are in a rebuild they need to be turning older assets into future stars. This idea that we need to be competitive while we are rebuilding is just a recipe for a ten year rebuild. The team will just continue to get worse each year until it hits rock bottom. Rock bottom is inevitable so might as well get it over with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassittoBoeser Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) 45 minutes ago, appleboy said: Just keeping the normal allotment of picks is not making moves to improve for the future. It means you are staying status quo. If they are in a rebuild they need to be turning older assets into future stars. This idea that we need to be competitive while we are rebuilding is just a recipe for a ten year rebuild. The team will just continue to get worse each year until it hits rock bottom. Rock bottom is inevitable so might as well get it over with. LOL tell that to edmonton and chicago - ten years before they got lucky in the draft and had picks when generational players showed up and do note, they got them before the lottery system started screwing teams over. Wake up guy wow just wow You completely ignore that your "TANK" strategy just makes us worse for a longer period, breeds a culture of losing, busts players, and is predicated on the freak chance we are lucky enough to win the lottery the same year a crosby/ovie/ kane appears. Ask Colorado how that tank worked this year? Ask Philly and Dallas and NJ how their non tanked worked? Hell, look at the Canucks two years running 3rd to last and 2nd to last what more do you want guy? And both years we fell back the max spots. CLEARLY with a lottery system there is no longer any guarantees of getting the top pick and that ignores you need to actually win that pick when there is actually a generational player. Basically your strategy is crap the bed and pray - lol -effective strategy to be successful at anything in life I hear. Edited June 17, 2017 by PassittoBoeser 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleboy Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, PassittoBoeser said: LOL tell that to edmonton and chicago - ten years before they got lucky in the draft and had picks when generational players showed up and got them before the lottery started screwing people over. Wake up guy wow just wow You completely ignore that your "TANK" strategy just makes us worse for a longer period, breeds a culture of losing, busts players, and is predicated on the freak chance we are lucky enough to win the lottery the same year a crosby/ovie/ kane appears. Ask Colorado how that tank worked this year? Ask Philly and Dallas how their non tanked worked? Basically your strategy is crap the bed and pray - lol My way is to give Benning as many picks as possible over the next few years and let him do what he was hired for. Your way is build this club with left overs from other teams and pray. You will never land a franchise player if your not at the table. Your way may get us to the playoffs but it will never bring a cup. "Never". All of your WOW's won't change that. Edmonton is well on their way to being a cup contender and I think Chicago has won a few also. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 37 minutes ago, appleboy said: Just keeping the normal allotment of picks is not making moves to improve for the future. It means you are staying status quo. If they are in a rebuild they need to be turning older assets into future stars. This idea that we need to be competitive while we are rebuilding is just a recipe for a ten year rebuild. The team will just continue to get worse each year until it hits rock bottom. Rock bottom is inevitable so might as well get it over with. OK, give an example of a "move" that they can make with this group. It is NOT a ten year rebuild what the can do from here as the plan seems to be but as you seem so despondent re. drafting and developing prospects, pray tell what older assets you would trade and what they would provide in return for your team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleboy Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said: OK, give an example of a "move" that they can make with this group. It is NOT a ten year rebuild what the can do from here as the plan seems to be but as you seem so despondent re. drafting and developing prospects, pray tell what older assets you would trade and what they would provide in return for your team. Dear god, don't you pay attention. Go back and read mine and half of the other posters on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Just now, appleboy said: Dear god, don't you pay attention. Go back and read mine and half of the other posters on here. All you do is whine about no moves and then propose trading Tanev for a top 3 pick or Gubby for another first round pick. You cannot make those trades as no one will do that as the other 30 GMs have no vested interest in making crap trades to improve the Canucks at the expense of their own teams. Realistically, the Canucks have very few trading assets other than picks and prospects if you consider Horvat untouchable. No one is coming off a statistically unusually great year that may lure a team into overpaying. What they do have is a bunch of picks in a draft that a 30th pick could be as good as a 10th and they finally have a semblance of a prospect pool. The management team will be doing a very positive and proactive job with your team if they don't screw with that and add to it his draft year and next and if they can move a veteran or three the best timing would be TDL next season when value in return likely highest. What you call proposals = things no other GM will do. What you call "inaction" is what I see your team finally doing, something positive in their actions to turn the ship around much quicker than could otherwise be the case. Stay negative or perhaps find another team to root for because I think this particular team seemingly is finally getting it and won't just make a bunch of crap trades. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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