[Report] Duchene and Landeskog could be hitting the market

[mll]

1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

That's a pretty big risk and if they get caught making that type of negotiation could forfeit picks.

 

"There has to be a high level of diligence to make sure those things don't happen and to make sure people know there will be significant penalties imposed if they were to screw around with the rules,'' Daly said.

Daly said violators of the expansion rules forgo a first-round draft pick, so penalties in the same vein would be "appropriate." New Jersey Devils GM Ray Shero insisted anyone would be crazy to attempt that type of circumvention.

 

  It would be pretty hard to prove that was NSH's intention and I certainly do believe some of that will be going on but it's still a risk.

 

They do have a few young promising players in the AHL right now  Carrier, and Murphy are both having very good seasons and Dougherty is doing not bad for his first full AHL season.  Sure they might be a year or two away from making impacts in the NHL but their depth isn't that bad and farther out they have Fabbro and Girard.  Especially if Av's are willing to add in a D into the offer.  Gelinas/Wierchioch or even see if Beauchemin is willing to waive his NMC.

 

 If all you said was true you wouldn't be hearing there name in rumours. NSH knows the price AV's are looking for and yet still are in on the Duchene interest.

 

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/insider-trading-duchene-on-predators-radar~1047202

 

 

 

Any team can start negotiating with their UFAs.  Vegas can have a discussion with him but it won't go anywhere.  Fisher a.k.a. Mr Carrie Underwood is highly unlikely to want to play anywhere else than in Nashville.  

 

Poile has definitely contacted Colorado - it's been reported by their beat writer Vingan but it hasn't gone anywhere so far.   

They are likely offering a D prospect like Girard and maybe even Fabbro but I don't see them moving one of their current NHL Ds.  I could see them even adding Arvidsson - ie they can only protect 4Fs so Duchene, Johansen, Neal and Forsberg and 4Ds Josi, Ekholm, Ellis, Subban.

 

Duchene is also under contract for only two more years after this season.  The idea is to have a group that can compete immediately and not wait until their younger Ds are ready.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

21 minutes ago, mll said:

 

Any team can start negotiating with their UFAs.  Vegas can have a discussion with him but it won't go anywhere.  Fisher a.k.a. Mr Carrie Underwood is highly unlikely to want to play anywhere else than in Nashville.  

Yes they can, but if it comes out that NSH told Fisher they are intending to sign him but to wait until July 1st before signing the next contract they would be in big trouble. 

 

Quote

Poile has definitely contacted Colorado - it's been reported by their beat writer Vingan but it hasn't gone anywhere so far.   

They are likely offering a D prospect like Girard and maybe even Fabbro but I don't see them moving one of their current NHL Ds.  I could see them even adding Arvidsson - ie they can only protect 4Fs so Duchene, Johansen, Neal and Forsberg and 4Ds Josi, Ekholm, Ellis, Subban.

I can't see Arvidsson getting added, i'd say he's off limits, too much promise.

 

I don't think Ekholm is off limits though,  Irwin has been a good LHD signing for them taking on 18 minutes per game, and as I said Av's could add a D like

Beauchemin (as long as he waives) to help sweeten the deal. 

 

Duchene + Beauchemin for Ekholm + Wilson/Smith + Fiala + Conditional pick (playoff success)

 

Preds protect

Forsberg, Neal, Fisher, Johansen, Duchene, Arvidsson, Wilson/Smith

Subban, Josi, Ellis

Rinne

 

 

[mll]

20 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Yes they can, but if it comes out that NSH told Fisher they are intending to sign him but to wait until July 1st before signing the next contract they would be in big trouble. 

 

I can't see Arvidsson getting added, i'd say he's off limits, too much promise.

 

I don't think Ekholm is off limits though,  Irwin has been a good LHD signing for them taking on 18 minutes per game, and as I said Av's could add a D like

Beauchemin (as long as he waives) to help sweeten the deal. 

 

Duchene + Beauchemin for Ekholm + Wilson/Smith + Fiala + Conditional pick (playoff success)

 

Preds protect

Forsberg, Neal, Fisher, Johansen, Duchene, Arvidsson, Wilson/Smith

Subban, Josi, Ellis

Rinne

 

 

 

Then every team would be in big trouble.  A team can tell their UFA how much they would offer.  He can then talk to Vegas and decide for himself where he wants to sign.  The risk is that he signs with Vegas - he's UFA and free to do what he wants.  It's like any regular UFA situation except it happens a bit earlier for Vegas this year while other teams have to wait for July. 

 

We simply don't agree on how they value their players.  I don't see them wanting to protect Smith or Wilson or Colorado wanting them for that matter.  Duchene is a key player so they have to offer quality.   I would see Arvidsson part of the deal.  

 

I doubt there is any interest in Beauchemin - they want speed and skills and Ds who can cycle with the Fs.   It's all about mobility and offence for them on D.

 

I think their protection list will be 

Forsberg, Neal, Johansen, Arvidsson or Duchene

Josi Ellis Ekholm Subban

 

 

[Bigturk8]

15 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Yes they can, but if it comes out that NSH told Fisher they are intending to sign him but to wait until July 1st before signing the next contract they would be in big trouble. 

Would they? I asked about this awhile back because I hadn't seen anything about this exact scenario before. I've checked the expansion draft rules and there doesn't seem to be anything that says you can't have verbal agreement then wait until expansion is over to sign the papers.

As it stands, it seems to be a very big loophole, and something I'd imagine that every team will take advantage of if they have the opportunity.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

4 minutes ago, Bigturk8 said:

Would they? I asked about this awhile back because I hadn't seen anything about this exact scenario before. I've checked the expansion draft rules and there doesn't seem to be anything that says you can't have verbal agreement then wait until expansion is over to sign the papers.

As it stands, it seems to be a very big loophole, and something I'd imagine that every team will take advantage of if they have the opportunity.

"There has to be a high level of diligence to make sure those things don't happen and to make sure people know there will be significant penalties imposed if they were to screw around with the rules,'' Daly said.

Daly said violators of the expansion rules forgo a first-round draft pick, so penalties in the same vein would be "appropriate." New Jersey Devils GM Ray Shero insisted anyone would be crazy to attempt that type of circumvention.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/concerns-expansion-draft-shenanigans-rear-ugly-head-gms/story?id=43575505

[mll]

1 minute ago, Bigturk8 said:

Would they? I asked about this awhile back because I hadn't seen anything about this exact scenario before. I've checked the expansion draft rules and there doesn't seem to be anything that says you can't have verbal agreement then wait until expansion is over to sign the papers.

As it stands, it seems to be a very big loophole, and something I'd imagine that every team will take advantage of if they have the opportunity.

There's no loophole.  

Take Eriksson.  He talked to Boston who offered him a deal.  He liked the Vancouver offer more and did not sign with Boston.   

Expansion is the same for UFAs.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 minute ago, mll said:

There's no loophole.  

Take Eriksson.  He talked to Boston who offered him a deal.  He liked the Vancouver offer more and did not sign with Boston.   

Expansion is the same for UFAs.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/concerns-expansion-draft-shenanigans-rear-ugly-head-gms/story?id=43575505

[Bigturk8]

Just now, ForsbergTheGreat said:

"There has to be a high level of diligence to make sure those things don't happen and to make sure people know there will be significant penalties imposed if they were to screw around with the rules,'' Daly said.

Daly said violators of the expansion rules forgo a first-round draft pick, so penalties in the same vein would be "appropriate." New Jersey Devils GM Ray Shero insisted anyone would be crazy to attempt that type of circumvention.

Out of curiosity, can you send me the link? I asked these questions about 3 months ago, so I'm curious as to when these comments were made.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Just now, Bigturk8 said:

Out of curiosity, can you send me the link? I asked these questions about 3 months ago, so I'm curious as to when these comments were made.

yeah I just added it to that post

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/concerns-expansion-draft-shenanigans-rear-ugly-head-gms/story?id=43575505

 

[mll]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/concerns-expansion-draft-shenanigans-rear-ugly-head-gms/story?id=43575505

Thanks for the link.  The subtlety will likely be around the wording of the discussions. 

[Bigturk8]

1 minute ago, mll said:

There's no loophole.  

Take Eriksson.  He talked to Boston who offered him a deal.  He liked the Vancouver offer more and did not sign with Boston.   

Expansion is the same for UFAs.

I disagree. If the player and team agree to terms but wait to sign until afterwards, the team gets to protect another player without risking the loss of that one. It's against the spirit of the expansion draft which is that if a player is signed on for the next season, they are eligible, but since this particular scenario is not specified they would be able to get away with it. They're exploiting a weakness in the rules, that seems like a loophole to me.

[Bigturk8]

23 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/concerns-expansion-draft-shenanigans-rear-ugly-head-gms/story?id=43575505

I found my original post questioning this rule, It was the day before this was published lol.

The one thing I'll say about the article is that they don't actually say there's a rule against it. They say there would be a high penalty if you tried to circumvent the rules, but there is no specific rule stating that you can't do it. You're probably right, and GM's likely wont test it, but at the same time, I don't see how the NHL could, in good conscience, penalize a team that doesn't technically break the rules.

With that being said, we've all seen the retroactive Luongo rule so I wouldn't put it past them.

[mll]

22 minutes ago, Bigturk8 said:

I disagree. If the player and team agree to terms but wait to sign until afterwards, the team gets to protect another player without risking the loss of that one. It's against the spirit of the expansion draft which is that if a player is signed on for the next season, they are eligible, but since this particular scenario is not specified they would be able to get away with it. They're exploiting a weakness in the rules, that seems like a loophole to me.

They can offer term and the player is free to choose what he wants to do.  Wording will play a role like it does for the week where UFAs can talk to other teams while still not being able to sign a contract yet.

 

Will be interesting to see how many teams protect their UFAs or sign them after expansion.

[Bigturk8]

Just now, mll said:

They can offer term and the player is free to choose what he wants to do.  Wording will play a role like it does for the week where UFAs can talk to other teams while still not being able to sign a contract yet.

 

Will be interesting to see how teams protect their UFAs or sign them after expansion.

This is where the confusion is coming in. I'm specifically saying, "if they have an agreement but wait to sign the papers". If the player is legitimately waiting to test the market, it's a different scenario. The trick for the NHL would be telling the difference between the two.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 hour ago, Bigturk8 said:

I disagree. If the player and team agree to terms but wait to sign until afterwards, the team gets to protect another player without risking the loss of that one. It's against the spirit of the expansion draft which is that if a player is signed on for the next season, they are eligible, but since this particular scenario is not specified they would be able to get away with it. They're exploiting a weakness in the rules, that seems like a loophole to me.

Yes but the league has made it clear that they won't stand for any types of circumvention.   Technically when NJ signed kovy it was legal according to the CBA but the league let teams know that if that if they were caught trying exploit the loop hole there would be a penalty.  in which NJ was caught and punished (which the league went back on)

 

44 minutes ago, Bigturk8 said:

This is where the confusion is coming in. I'm specifically saying, "if they have an agreement but wait to sign the papers". If the player is legitimately waiting to test the market, it's a different scenario. The trick for the NHL would be telling the difference between the two.

That's exactly the point.  If a team does this, it's done to circumvent expansion and it will likely be looked into and penalized.  NSH would have to prove that Fisher was realistically looking to test free agency and not just waiting till after expansion. 

 

 

[Tower102]

51 minutes ago, Bigturk8 said:

This is where the confusion is coming in. I'm specifically saying, "if they have an agreement but wait to sign the papers". If the player is legitimately waiting to test the market, it's a different scenario. The trick for the NHL would be telling the difference between the two.

There is no way the NHL would be able to know the difference unless they were to find an actually signed contract with a date left off for submission at July 1 type of thing. They will talk to him, tell them what they think he is worth or what they are considering offering, he will tell them what he is looking for. They can both be sure that they are in the same ballpark to each other and have mutual interest. He then goes to Vegas, Nashville risks that in that time frame Vegas offers him something he can't refuse and he signs there before July 1st when they can actually submit their offer. 

 

 

[Tower102]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Yes but the league has made it clear that they won't stand for any types of circumvention.   Technically when NJ signed kovy it was legal according to the CBA but the league let teams know that if that if they were caught trying exploit the loop hole there would be a penalty.  in which NJ was caught and punished (which the league went back on)

 

That's exactly the point.  If a team does this, it's done to circumvent expansion and it will likely be looked into and penalized.  NSH would have to prove that Fisher was realistically looking to test free agency and not just waiting till after expansion. 

 

 

Nashville would have zero onus to prove anything, the league and or Vegas would have the responsibility to prove anything was wrong. There is nothing wrong with a UFA going to free agency and then re-signing with their old club. It is the risk of Vegas to pick a UFA in the draft, and they probably would avoid FIsher understanding that they probably wouldn't be able to sign him.

[D-Money]

11 minutes ago, Tower102 said:

Nashville would have zero onus to prove anything, the league and or Vegas would have the responsibility to prove anything was wrong. There is nothing wrong with a UFA going to free agency and then re-signing with their old club. It is the risk of Vegas to pick a UFA in the draft, and they probably would avoid FIsher understanding that they probably wouldn't be able to sign him.

I was under the understanding that a UFA only counted as the expansion selection if they actually agreed to terms and signed with Vegas.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

26 minutes ago, D-Money said:

I was under the understanding that a UFA only counted as the expansion selection if they actually agreed to terms and signed with Vegas.

Yeah vegas has a 3 day grace period to negotiate with UFA prior to expansion draft.  If that talk to fisher and he give no intention of signing anywhere but Nashville they will have a case to believe that NSH was trying to circumvent the rules.

[captainhorvat]

Lets package virtanen for duchene.