Did Planned Tanking and Management Blow Up Work?

[189lb enforcers?]

Tank Nation was never promoting instant gratification, quite the opposite.

This stealth tank is awesome. 

Team Tank got what they wanted, just a year or two late, but whatever. 

[CanadianRugby]

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎01 at 11:35 AM, IBatch said:

The Sedins money will be needed to sign Boesser and Juolevi if he works out...Which is a big reason why this team can't rebuild until they retire.  Gaurdian speaks the truth in this matter.

Disagree.  You need a ton of draft picks, not cap room, for a rebuild. 

 

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎01 at 5:56 PM, kingofsurrey said:

And then we signed Loui E  to  a  6 yr deal at  6mil per.

Wow, is all i can say.   Huge mistake by our GM. 

What?  But that's like, 0.5 million cheaper than Erik Karlsson.  What a steal! 

 

1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Tank Nation was never promoting instant gratification, quite the opposite.

This stealth tank is awesome. 

Team Tank got what they wanted, just a year or two late, but whatever. 

Disagree.  The Canucks added a grand total of one 4th round pick for this draft.  Simply having a terrible team and drafting high isn't enough.  For Team Tank to get what we want would require a few more picks in the top 3 rounds. 

[TheGuardian_]

51 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Tank Nation was never promoting instant gratification, quite the opposite.

This stealth tank is awesome. 

Team Tank got what they wanted, just a year or two late, but whatever. 

Just to clarify, tanking is something GOOD teams do, this present group is doing the best they can.

 

The new rules hit at a bad time, tanking or finishing DFL won't guarantee any sort of superior player now, this year the Nucks could finish 3rd last again and pick in the 6/7 slot while LA could get the number 1, they are after all, the second biggest media hub in the US.

 

What the Nucks may have to do is similar to what TO did in taking on huge contracts to enhance trades. Eriksson will be a fixture here for awhile and then bought out, I think about another 2 full season's, by then the Nucks will have paid him 23 million of his 36 million so the buy out and cap hit will be much less, if they wait 3 more years then they have paid him 28 of 36 and the cap hit goes backwards I think, sounds off though but that appears to be what capfriendly shows. Then they will have uber cap space as long as this mystifying management group doesn't start giving players like Baerstchi and Granlund 4 to 5 million a year or Horvat 8 mil a season, he's good, but not that good.

 

I was all on board for tank nation for the McDavid draft, last year I was very hopeful for one of the consensus top three, I still think JP is that good and might be available if over payment is made, but now, for the next couple of drafts it doesn't matter, I just hope some posters learn to recognize teams that do tank, 30 point drops from the year before and then a big rebound.

 

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, CanadianRugby said:

Disagree.  The Canucks added a grand total of one 4th round pick for this draft.  Simply having a terrible team and drafting high isn't enough.  For Team Tank to get what we want would require a few more picks in the top 3 rounds. 

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. 

Even though the stealth tank was set to auto-tank, the management couldn't ascertain those quality picks you've mentioned, before the TDL. 

 

There's still a 3-month window left to acquire picks, in an ED year, so clinging to hope that JB has turned over a new leaf, signalled by the trading of Burrows and Hansen. 

 

It doesn't sit well with me that these managers can accidentally tank and still sit at that draft podium talking about "process". I like it even less when fellow fans call for patience or describe the criticism as, "fans needing instant gratification". 

 

So team tank gets a bottom 5 finish, but with no foreseeable draft pick surplus where it counts. What else can we do now but hope that JB doesn't Botchford the opportunity to tank well. 

[TheGuardian_]

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎03 at 9:34 AM, 189lb enforcers? said:

It doesn't sit well with me that these managers can accidentally tank and still sit at that draft podium talking about "process". I like it even less when fellow fans call for patience or describe the criticism as, "fans needing instant gratification". 

This tanking is magnified by the advent of the salary cap, rich teams can no longer buy their way out of trouble. The idea of free agency, especially the RFA's has been circumvented by the "unwritten rule", you don't pursue my players and I won't pursue yours. This is very evident by the shear number of RFA's each year the miniscule number of offer sheets or players changing teams.

 

Today, we watch Edmonton guaranteed a playoff spot, challenging for 1rst in the division and 2nd or 3rd in the conference and Toronto needing 1 point to guarantee their return to the second season. But Buffalo didn't make it, but then they didn't dump the entire management crew either, so it looks like smart, dedicated professionals with vision and fortitude are also needed to pull off this kind of remarkable turn around, oh ya, getting lucky in the draft (with the new rules) didn't hurt either but don't kid yourself, Buffalo is a year away from joining the Oil and TO. Calgary also makes the show, yaaaa, this is fun, "competitive environment" my arse.

 

Next year is looking to be similar with, IMO, Detroit, LA and the Devils (50/50) competing with Vancouver and Vegas for the draft prize. It is still early to be sure as much can happen before July 1, after that date it will become easier to "guess" who is doing what.

[TheGuardian_]

Edmonton on to the second round, TO in a dog fight with the top team in the league fighting to get to the next level with mostly players from the last two years.

 

It wasn't just the tank job, look at the trade Edmonton made, a Boston alumni, I hope Benning has 1/10 the gohanas to make a big deal.

 

There is a Boston media series with the management group that includes Benning, he is kind of quiet and defers to many others and didn't have much to do with the scouting department. Just kind of sat there, real quiet.

 

At any rate tanking isn't what the Canucks have been doing according to this management group, they have tried their hardest to build a winning environment or to win, if you believe the rhetoric. Finishing near the bottom is an accident. 

 

[DSVII]

On Sunday, April 02, 2017 at 9:59 AM, TheOgRook said:

You must not be aware that it is way to early to tell who won the last three drafts.. . How hard is it to understand?

I think we can call the 2014 draft as trending downward at this point. We whiffed on three 50 pt rookies in the 1st round with our two picks. Tryamkin is gone. Virts is a project and Demko is the only blue chip. Of course if he becomes the next Cory Schneider (and that is my hope) it'll be easier to swallow on those misses.

 

May our 2015/16 ones trend better. Boeser/gaudette/juolevi/lockwood would be welcome additions.

[189lb enforcers?]

I really hope Slim-Jim go into this draft with more picks than they have as of today. 

My personal preference would be for them to trade one of Edler or Tanev and also Hutton and one of Goldy or SB because I can't see them as playoff guys in their prime. I used to be pitching for Joel Edmondson, but his value will have gone up since then with a great playoffs, thus far. The other guy I'd like to poach is Adam Lowry. That's two great, young support players to add to Horvat and Guddy who will supplement the core, believed to be coming through these next few drafts. 

[wai_lai416]

On 2017-01-15 at 4:16 PM, Wilbur said:

We're are also not as far into the rebuild as the Leafs, Oilers, Avalanche, Panthers, etc.  More will be added to our core.

All those teams were irrelevant till they picked up a franchise top 3 player. Take out mcdavid like last year they don't make the playoff. Take out Matthew leaf have no where close to the success and chemistry they have now. Ekblad being injured and panther did a total remake of their entire defence they didn't make the playoff. We can add all we want to the core. Until we draft a top 3 player that can actually be a franchise player. Nothing's going to happen. Look at all the other young teams with a bunch of good young players.. nothing is happening with them. They'll be good enough to claw and fight their way to the playoff. But they'll never actually go on to compete in the final for a cup

[189lb enforcers?]

19 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

All those teams were irrelevant till they picked up a franchise top 3 player. Take out mcdavid like last year they don't make the playoff. Take out Matthew leaf have no where close to the success and chemistry they have now. Ekblad being injured and panther did a total remake of their entire defence they didn't make the playoff. We can add all we want to the core. Until we draft a top 3 player that can actually be a franchise player. Nothing's going to happen. Look at all the other young teams with a bunch of good young players.. nothing is happening with them. They'll be good enough to claw and fight their way to the playoff. But they'll never actually go on to compete in the final for a cup

If Toronto had been "unlucky" enough to have drafted Laine or Tkachuck, they still be well on their way to having a stud core.

 

Same goes for Edmonton. So planned tanking does and did work. And the consolation prize for missing McJesus was Jack and for missing AW was Laine. Too bad the Canucks had playoff plans those years, as stated from their PR guy, Slim. 

 

Only the Canucks would manage to finally come to the draft table within lotto pick contention... in a draft year like this one. It's not all luck. Having said that though, Canucks's Luck is a very curious phenomenon. 

[Baggins]

22 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Edmonton on to the second round, TO in a dog fight with the top team in the league fighting to get to the next level with mostly players from the last two years.

 

It wasn't just the tank job, look at the trade Edmonton made, a Boston alumni, I hope Benning has 1/10 the gohanas to make a big deal.

 

There is a Boston media series with the management group that includes Benning, he is kind of quiet and defers to many others and didn't have much to do with the scouting department. Just kind of sat there, real quiet.

 

At any rate tanking isn't what the Canucks have been doing according to this management group, they have tried their hardest to build a winning environment or to win, if you believe the rhetoric. Finishing near the bottom is an accident. 

 

The only two draft picks on the team from the last two years are Matthews and Marner. You can add Nylander if you want to go back three years of drafting. There's an awful lot of guys on the team from the previous regime. Here's a breakdown of Leafs that played 20 or more games this year: Top 10 points producers are bold.

 

Previous regime:

Van Riemsdyk

Kadri

Bozak

Gardiner

Brown

Komarov

Hyman

Gauthier

 

Drafted by current regime:

Matthews

Marner

Nylander

 

Current regime acquired by trade:

Zaitsev

Rielly

Hunwick

Polak

Leivo

Soshnikov

Carrick

Marincin

Anderson

Smith (rental)

Boyle (rental)

 

Seems to me Shanny inherited a pretty good support crew for his three high first rounders. Six out of eight are in their top ten producers. Btw, Zaitsev was 9th with 38 points.

 

Here's the list of top ten point producers Benning inherited from Gillis' skill at drafting....

Horvat

 

If you want to add Nonis' skill....

Edler

 

 

You have to all the back to Burke to add the Sedins. This why comparing where we are to Edmonton and Toronto is ridiculous. We had a very different starting point from them. I highly doubt we'll have to suck for a decade or more, like they did, to get to where they currently are.

[Baggins]

25 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

If Toronto had been "unlucky" enough to have drafted Laine or Tkachuck, they still be well on their way to having a stud core.

 

Same goes for Edmonton. So planned tanking does and did work. And the consolation prize for missing McJesus was Jack and for missing AW was Laine. Too bad the Canucks had playoff plans those years, as stated from their PR guy, Slim. 

 

Only the Canucks would manage to finally come to the draft table within lotto pick contention... in a draft year like this one. It's not all luck. Having said that though, Canucks's Luck is a very curious phenomenon. 

Weren't we there last year???

[189lb enforcers?]

Just now, Baggins said:

Weren't we there last year???

Was it planned???

 

 

[Baggins]

1 minute ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Was it planned???

 

 

It should never be planned as far as I'm concerned. Why does it matter when we wound up where you guys wanted? How silly does this sound:

 

"I got what I wanted but I'm pissed I got it because I didn't actually try to get it"

[189lb enforcers?]

9 minutes ago, Baggins said:

It should never be planned as far as I'm concerned. Why does it matter when we wound up where you guys wanted? How silly does this sound:

 

"I got what I wanted but I'm pissed I got it because I didn't actually try to get it"

Good thing it's not just your opinion forum, huh! 

You sound like a whiney sore loser anyways, now mocking like a baby. 

[Baggins]

4 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Good thing it's not just your opinion forum, huh! 

You sound like a whiney sore loser anyways, now mocking like a baby. 

Oh I'm not the one doing the whining. That would be the tankheads. Whine because they want to shoot for the playoffs and continue to whine when we don't make it. Whine about wanting high picks, yet whine we didn't get them by intentionally tanking. Intentionally losing is for the losers. That's the mindset the brought about the draft lottery in the first place. Now you whine when we don't the pick for where we finished because of that lottery.

[189lb enforcers?]

2 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Oh I'm not the one doing the whining. That would be the tankheads. Whine because they want to shoot for the playoffs and continue to whine when we don't make it. Whine about wanting high picks, yet whine we didn't get them by intentionally tanking. Intentionally losing is for the losers. That's the mindset the brought about the draft lottery in the first place. Now you whine when we don't the pick for where we finished because of that lottery.

Besides the virtue signalling, not a bad story, but I watched most of the Edmonton and Toronto playoff games and rather enjoyed watching "losers" play some of the most exciting hockey I've seen lately. Not much to whine about for those "loser" fans.

 

It must just kill you to admit that Slim-Jim's accidental tank job still has the tankers laughing at the deviation from the winning environment/competitive plan that was handed out to start the season, again. It's not whining, it's laughing at the cheer team who thinks it was all part of the plan! It even has you whining about it. It's rather amusing. 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheGuardian_]

23 minutes ago, Baggins said:

The only two draft picks on the team from the last two years are Matthews and Marner. You can add Nylander if you want to go back three years of drafting. There's an awful lot of guys on the team from the previous regime. Here's a breakdown of Leafs that played 20 or more games this year: Top 10 points producers are bold.

 

Previous regime:

Van Riemsdyk

Kadri

Bozak

Gardiner

Brown

Komarov

Hyman

Gauthier

 

Drafted by current regime:

Matthews

Marner

Nylander

 

Current regime acquired by trade:

Zaitsev

Rielly

Hunwick

Polak

Leivo

Soshnikov

Carrick

Marincin

Anderson

Smith (rental)

Boyle (rental)

 

Seems to me Shanny inherited a pretty good support crew for his three high first rounders. Six out of eight are in their top ten producers. Btw, Zaitsev was 9th with 38 points.

 

Here's the list of top ten point producers Benning inherited from Gillis' skill at drafting....

Horvat

 

If you want to add Nonis' skill....

Edler

 

 

You have to all the back to Burke to add the Sedins. This why comparing where we are to Edmonton and Toronto is ridiculous. We had a very different starting point from them. I highly doubt we'll have to suck for a decade or more, like they did, to get to where they currently are.

The draft did make a big difference, a number 1 line.

So did the new managements trading, the thread did include new management with a new goal.

 

Both teams made insightful and bold trades for players that make a dent one way or the other, this team has traded away a starting defencive prospect and alienated another. They signed horrible contracts to players that ended up not being difference makers, albeit Miller did have a good year this season. The others collected draft picks and this group traded away picks for players to fill roster spots.

 

Gillis did get both Tanev and Hutton either of which may end up being traded for the desperate necessity this team has and Benning will get the credit just like the very best young player, Horvat, who played his first year not badly, is credited to this managements groups skill bringing him along slowly even though he couldn't be sent down to the AHL and he was injured almost until January and at that point not much sense sending him down.

 

TO created cap space, Benning eliminated cap space.

Edmonton traded picks for NHL players, this group, picks for AHLers.

 

It is relevant well in that both those team's management and coaches started around the same time, so blaming some one else 4 years later is kind of moot.

 

[Baggins]

13 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Besides the virtue signalling, not a bad story, but I watched most of the Edmonton and Toronto playoff games and rather enjoyed watching "losers" play some of the most exciting hockey I've seen lately. Not much to whine about for those "loser" fans.

 

It must just kill you to admit that Slim-Jim's accidental tank job still has the tankers laughing at the deviation from the winning environment/competitive plan that was handed out to start the season, again. It's not whining, it's laughing at the cheer team who thinks it was all part of the plan! It even has you whining about it. It's rather amusing.

I watched the Sens-Bruins instead. The Sens being the only Canadian team I'm cheering for. Don't have much interest in TO and never have. I did watch the Oil-Shark series though. I was cheering for the Sharks hoping for that extra 1st rounder. Next round I'll cheer for the Ducks. Couldn't bring myself to cheer for Edmonton when Gretzky was there and nothing has changed since.

 

I never saw finishing where we did as part of some plan. They were in the playoff hunt midseason. Injuries caused problems once again. But we rarely got blown out and were in most games they lost. You're confusing me with those that come with stupid sayings like "Slim-Jim" and "stealth tank".

[TheGuardian_]

16 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

 

28 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Oh I'm not the one doing the whining. That would be the tankheads. Whine because they want to shoot for the playoffs and continue to whine when we don't make it. Whine about wanting high picks, yet whine we didn't get them by intentionally tanking. Intentionally losing is for the losers. That's the mindset the brought about the draft lottery in the first place. Now you whine when we don't the pick for where we finished because of that lottery.

Besides the virtue signalling, not a bad story, but I watched most of the Edmonton and Toronto playoff games and rather enjoyed watching "losers" play some of the most exciting hockey I've seen lately. Not much to whine about for those "loser" fans.

 

It must just kill you to admit that Slim-Jim's accidental tank job still has the tankers laughing at the deviation from the winning environment/competitive plan that was handed out to start the season, again. It's not whining, it's laughing at the cheer team who thinks it was all part of the plan! It even has you whining about it. It's rather amusing. 

 

 

Don't really understand the argument, you both seem to be basically on the same page.

 

While finishing lower helps it isn't the same as before, just finishing lower isn't the sure thing it was. The management group has to make expensive trades to get better players than they have now, much better players and bigger ones. At the very least a big team can work the boards better in most cases

 

That's the way we selected the National and Provincial junior teams, if the kids ducks his head coming in the room he can be taught, two things can't be taught size and skill. At the beginning of these meetings there was a picture of a young Gretzky. It has been awhile since I did this, I am sure his pic was replaced with Crosby and now McDavid.

 

If you believe this management group, they were trying their very best to get into the playoffs, they truly believed this group was good enough and that signing the aging two (contract years) time wonder, Eriksson, would put them over the top. I am sure they were thinking of the PP improvement getting them there.

 

Baggins' post seems to be that he is upset with the fair weather posters.

189's appears to be is in the same vein with a slightly different slant.

 

IMO tanking now is irrelevant, the lower standing may help but the new draft rules DEMAND the team have the very best management people to figure out the cap and makes trades for potential #1 line players or prospects. In the mean time look for players that can/could be effective in the playoffs in third or fourth line roles, big, fast, young and fast. Virtanen may end up in this group but with his injuries he may not.

 

There is still a "style" of hockey that might be effective but it is boring a heck, trap, trap, trap. That style depends on a good goalie, good dmen with lots of fast back checkers, size doesn't matter for them and a slightly better than average PP. Try to get every game to OT or win by a goal. Try for as many "loser" points a possible to get points in the regular season so the team looks better than they are.