Whitehouse Visit

[Undrafted]

4 hours ago, Tystick said:

 Okay first of all, you're insinuating that because I'm white, I can't speak on this subject. That in itself is racist, and I find that hilarious coming from someone fighting racism. Would my arguments be better if I told you I was actually black? 

 

I don't know why you're saying racism doesn't affect me. I experience racism often when I'm debating a minority group. I just experienced it from you in your last paragraph. The difference is I don't try to ruin the country because of it...

Your post is textbook example of false equivalency, something I’m sure you heard people say a lot in response to Trump’s answers following Charlottesville.

 

If you think non-whites telling you that you don’t know what you’re talking about is some kind of ‘reverse racism’, not only is that false equivalence, it also shows you clearly have no real understanding about what racism is all about.

 

Several years ago, a co-worker once opined that she understood what being homeless was like because her and a boyfriend once camped out in the street for two days, lining up for concert tickets.  And she was serious.

 

Do you not agree that’s beyond dumb?  Well, that’s another example of false equivalence.  It’s the same as idiots who actually believe they could be NHL GM or coach because they played a video game.  It’s the same as someone telling a vet with PTSD that they know what war is like because they spent a weekend at paintball camp.

 

And it’s also the same as your assertion that you’ve experienced (reverse) racism.  That’s the same as Trump saying Antifa was as bad as the Neo-Nazis.  There’s a reason why leading Republicans said Trump was wrong about Charlottesville and that there IS no moral equivalence between Antifa and Neo-Nazis.

 

TBH, I’m not sure I want to extend any further “debate” with you.  I get the sense that you aren’t really interested in listening or understanding anything; that all you want to do is pick at what I say using talking points from whatever alt-right websites you’ve been going to for your information.  I get the sense that for you, this discussion is just a game and that all you want to do is “win”; whereas for me, this is NOT a game—this is life for me.  If nothing I’ve said already will make you see, then nothing I say in the future will either.

[Undrafted]

5 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

The Pens are not being used, as it is a tradition which predates this crap brought on by radical agenda, not Trump. 

I'd our political leaders had no time in their days for this kind of work. Maybe the Pens not going would set a precedent and save a few tax dollars and resources to do meaningful work by politicians, instead.

Wow, so racial equality is a "radical agenda"?  What is this, the 60s?

 

I'm not wasting my time with you

[Ronaldoescobar]

16 minutes ago, Tystick said:

I appreciate the breakdown but I'm going to keep it short, I can't take these long posts anymore 

 

- Thank you for the kind words.

- The liberal left is ruining the country. They're creating mass hysteria, specifically the liberal media, and the liberals are eating it up.

- Okay sure, there are right leaning, minority, extremist groups. The majority of the left is perpetuating hysteria that isn't there. They're effectively keeping the idea of racism alive.

- CNN picks emotions they want to target and run with it. Fox analyzes in an emotionless way. I really don't care for either, but I don't mind watching Tucker.

 

Thanks for the reply, I'd be happy to debate or discuss anything with you, just keep it to a point or two 

I appreciate your reply as well and apologies for the length of my post but wanted to make sure I was capturing everything.

 

That said, I do agree with some of your thoughts just not to the same extent:

 

-I do not agree the liberal left is ruining the country just as I dont think the conservative right is either. The conservative media uses the same tactics and many on their side eat it up just the same.

-Second point I agree with in that there are some on the left exaggerating the hysteria although I do not agree its the majority. And as above it is the same on the other side (an example being: using the fear of Islamic terrorism which since 911 has been far outdone by domestic terrorists). Again not the majority of them.

-Agree that CNN plays more to the emotional side of the viewer and Fox not so much but I also believe Fox to be more opinionated and push said opinion far more. I also hate Carlson but that is more of my personal opinion on him and I will throw out there that I cant stand Don Lemon from CNN either....

 

I dont think we will see eye to eye on this but I do appreciate you taking the time to respond in a civil manner that is pretty well thought out. 

[Tystick]

56 minutes ago, tkanuk said:

I gotta take issue with this statement. Saying that everyone's equal ignores A TON of historical context. Was slavery solved? We're there no effects from removing First Nations from their lands? When women were given the vote did they automatically have the same opportunities as men? I don't think so. You have privilege, even if you can't see it. 

 

And saying that the inequalities out there are because of individual choices is suspect to me. Are young black men just more inclined to commit crimes? Are they inherently more violent? Are they dumber than white people, and so invest their money more unwisely? I hope you're not saying that. Because saying those things would be racist. 

I agree, our history sucks, but what does that have to do with the choices people make today? And as a white male, why am I condemned to have no voice on these issues (that affect all of us) because some crappy people (that I have no relation with) happened to be white? And where is my privilege? I want to cash in. 

 

You said those things, not me. If the inequalities across the board aren't about the individual choices that people make, then what are they about? Because no one is stopping anyone from doing anything. 

[Tystick]

55 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

Your post is textbook example of false equivalency, something I’m sure you heard people say a lot in response to Trump’s answers following Charlottesville.

 

If you think non-whites telling you that you don’t know what you’re talking about is some kind of ‘reverse racism’, not only is that false equivalence, it also shows you clearly have no real understanding about what racism is all about.

 

Several years ago, a co-worker once opined that she understood what being homeless was like because her and a boyfriend once camped out in the street for two days, lining up for concert tickets.  And she was serious.

 

Do you not agree that’s beyond dumb?  Well, that’s another example of false equivalence.  It’s the same as idiots who actually believe they could be NHL GM or coach because they played a video game.  It’s the same as someone telling a vet with PTSD that they know what war is like because they spent a weekend at paintball camp.

 

And it’s also the same as your assertion that you’ve experienced (reverse) racism.  That’s the same as Trump saying Antifa was as bad as the Neo-Nazis.  There’s a reason why leading Republicans said Trump was wrong about Charlottesville and that there IS no moral equivalence between Antifa and Neo-Nazis.

 

TBH, I’m not sure I want to extend any further “debate” with you.  I get the sense that you aren’t really interested in listening or understanding anything; that all you want to do is pick at what I say using talking points from whatever alt-right websites you’ve been going to for your information.  I get the sense that for you, this discussion is just a game and that all you want to do is “win”; whereas for me, this is NOT a game—this is life for me.  If nothing I’ve said already will make you see, then nothing I say in the future will either.

It is racist because you're saying that because I am a White person, I can't speak on this subject.

That's very much racist. You're telling me I can't speak because I'm White. 

 

I know what racism looks like. If drive up to northern Alberta and go find the deep reserves, I would probably be killed just because I'm White. I get what you're saying, but I don't need to step in the shoes of someone (in general) who has experienced intense racism to realize that it's 100% wrong and should be justified to the highest degree possible. Like I said, point it out and I'll fight it with you. 

 

I never suggested they were morally equivalent. Antifa are not hero's.

They violently protest events they don't like because they're offended and can't see past their own ideas. 

 

Alt-right websites? Wow that's new. They're just general statistics that you can find anywhere. My talking points are my own. I feel they're very logical and fair. The general idea behind a debate is to win the debate. If you think I'm being unfair, please let me know how I can better understand your side. If not, that's fine too, I'm not trying to hurt you, just wanted to debate. We don't have to continue. 

[tkanuk]

21 minutes ago, Tystick said:

I agree, our history sucks, but what does that have to do with the choices people make today? And as a white male, why am I condemned to have no voice on these issues (that affect all of us) because some crappy people (that I have no relation with) happened to be white? And where is my privilege? I want to cash in. 

 

You said those things, not me. If the inequalities across the board aren't about the individual choices that people make, then what are they about? Because no one is stopping anyone from doing anything. 

What??

 

All those things still affect people today. That's my point! Women make less than men. Is that because of their bad choices? That's inane. 

 

And no ones condemning you. You can say anything you want. But if I disagree I'm going to say so. Where's the condemning? 

 

And i I already said what they're about! People get treated differently based on how they look. Women get raped. Brown people are suspected of being terrorists. Black men are shot by police. Are these all bad choices? No! If you refuse to see what's happening to people all around you, then I can't help you. 

[tkanuk]

3 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

 

 

I am going fishing. This should do for now.

As for the B lies M...

 

 

this literally took 30 seconds.

 

I thought you were going to drop truth bombs, not share links to the garbage dump. 

[Tystick]

16 minutes ago, tkanuk said:

What??

 

All those things still affect people today. That's my point! Women make less than men. Is that because of their bad choices? That's inane. 

 

And no ones condemning you. You can say anything you want. But if I disagree I'm going to say so. Where's the condemning? 

 

And i I already said what they're about! People get treated differently based on how they look. Women get raped. Brown people are suspected of being terrorists. Black men are shot by police. Are these all bad choices? No! If you refuse to see what's happening to people all around you, then I can't help you. 

Once again, I never said everyone is equal.

I never stated that the past doesn't affect people today.

I'm saying that today, everyone has equal opportunity.

No one is stopping anyone from doing anything. 

 

You're trying to paint me like someone who doesn't care that people are raped and discriminated against.

Please tell me, what's the solution to making everyone 100% equal?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

37 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

TBH, your post made me really angry.  Not because of anything YOU said specifically:  But in asking me to relate my personal experiences, that meant remembering and reliving a lot of really, REALLY angry memories.  And at my age, that’s NOT a good thing for my health.

 

I thought long and hard about how to respond and in the end, I don’t think I want to write about those experiences.  I don’t know you, nor do I know your intent, but I do know that there are others here who would use the opportunity to both discredit and denigrate my experiences and I’m not going to allow them to do that.

 

I’ve already said I’ve been arrested and held without charge multiple times when I was younger, just for being the wrong colour—if that isn’t institutional racism, what is?

 

I will say this much however: you can’t compartmentalize racism into a personal, institutional and most importantly, cultural level.

 

The thing is, laws and gov’t actions/programs can be easily circumvented.  Taking legal action against racism takes time and money most people don’t have.  Moreover, the onus is always on the aggrieved party to prove (beyond reasonable doubt) that racism IS a factor.  So for the most part, when we non-whites encounter racism, we don’t have a lot of realistic recourse.

Most post wasn't meant to be taken in a negative way. I'm actually just curious. I see a lot of talk about institutional racism but without actual evidence of first hand events I don't know what to believe. If there was some thing people can bring up its Obviosly something we should be fighting against.  

 

From my own experience. I was falsely detained handcuff and put in the back of a cop car once simply because I was a white male driving black SUV and fit the description of recent theft. So It does happens and was embarrrsing but in my opinion the cops were just doing there job. A poor job but none the less. 

 

Individual racism sucks but at the same time unless we are going to control people's thoughts and speech there's not a lot that can be done. And at the same time, skin colour isn't the only appearance factor that gets decriminated against.  These situation require more teaching the young than any sort of govt interaction. Govt interaction only segments and devides people more then it does to remedy. 

[King Heffy]

30 minutes ago, Tystick said:

I know what racism looks like. If drive up to northern Alberta and go find the deep reserves, I would probably be killed just because I'm White.

That comment isn't racist at all... 

[Tystick]

4 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

That comment isn't racist at all... 

Racist? I worked up north and that was very much a real thing.

[Toews]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Most post wasn't meant to be taken in a negative way. I'm actually just curious. I see a lot of talk about institutional racism but without actual evidence of first hand events I don't know what to believe. If there was some thing people can bring up its Obviosly something we should be fighting against.  

 

From my own experience. I was falsely detained handcuff and put in the back of a cop car once simply because I was a white male driving black SUV and fit the description of recent theft. So It does happens and was embarrrsing but in my opinion the cops were just doing there job. A poor job but none the less. 

 

Individual racism sucks but at the same time unless we are going to control people's thoughts and speech there's not a lot that can be done. And at the same time, skin colour isn't the only appearance factor that gets decriminated against.  These situation require more teaching the young than any sort of govt interaction. Govt interaction only segments and devides people more then it does to remedy. 

Sure this is something that happens to people once or twice in their lifetime. What black folks have been complaining about is this happening repeatedly. Its not just about fitting the description but cops regularly stopping them because they are looked upon as more threatening than others. The fact that people want to continue telling these people that what they are experiencing isn't really a problem infuriates them. People are so hung up on denying that racism, real racism exists that they will deny the experiences of honest black folk. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Just now, Toews said:

Sure this is something that happens to people once or twice in their lifetime. What black folks have been complaining about is this happening repeatedly. Its not just about fitting the description but cops regularly stopping them because they are looked upon as more threatening than others. The fact that people want to continue telling these people that what they are experiencing isn't really a problem infuriates them. People are so hung up on denying that racism, real racism exists that they will deny the experiences of honest black folk. 

That's a double ended sword and your not looking at it from both ends.  I could have been pissed that my appearance became an inconvenience for me but from the other side, I would have never fit the description had some idiot not stole a vehicle....and when I fit the description, what are the cops just supposed to do?

[Toews]

26 minutes ago, Tystick said:

Racist? I worked up north and that was very much a real thing.

What you are describing isn't racism, it's prejudice. There is a big difference between the two, you should read up on it if you are interested in learning more. Honestly your responses in this thread have been incredibly naive. Multiple people have come to the conclusion that you do not have any idea what you are talking about. You are lucky to have lived a very sheltered existence, away from the problems that many people of color deal with on a daily basis. No one is saying you are not allowed to have an opinion. They are just saying you are clueless and not very informed on the topic because the color of your skin protects you from the injustices that certain people do have to face. Saying that to you is not racist, the fact that you drew that absurd conclusion just underscores that you aren't prepared to have this discussion. But that's fine, many people aren't. I would suggest reading more about the experiences of those that face these problems and approaching it with an open mind. 

[Toews]

6 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

That's a double ended sword and your not looking at it from both ends.  I could have been pissed that my appearance became an inconvenience for me but from the other side, I would have never fit the description had some idiot not stole a vehicle....and when I fit the description, what are the cops just supposed to do?

It happened to you once. If it keeps happening to you, 3, 4, 5 times then you begin to lose your patience. Its not just about fitting a description, something goes wrong the first suspicion is on the black guy. If a description comes in about shots fired somewhere the guy, the person they single out is the black guy. Recently a NFL player Michael Bennett was detained by cops because of a fight and some statue falling over gave people the impression that shots had been fired. In the chaos and everyone trying to get away from what they perceived to be gun shots, the police singled out the big 6'3 black guy over everyone else. This is a common occurrence for black people. You can let it go once, maybe twice but if it keeps repeatedly happening to you but people who don't share the same color of skin do not have to face this then it will no doubt frustrate and anger you.

 

What are the cops supposed to do?

 

Maybe not look upon every black person as a suspect. Maybe not judge people based on the color of their skin, or their build. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 minute ago, Toews said:

What you are describing isn't racism, it's prejudice. There is a big difference between the two, you should read up on it if you are interested in learning more. Honestly your responses in this thread have been incredibly naive. Multiple people have come to the conclusion that you do not have any idea what you are talking about. You are lucky to have lived a very sheltered existence, away from the problems that many people of color deal with on a daily basis. No one is saying you are not allowed to have an opinion. They are just saying you are clueless and not very informed on the topic because the color of your skin protects you from the injustices that many certain people do have to face. Saying that to you is not racist, the fact that you drew that absurd conclusion just underscores that you aren't prepared to have this discussion. But that's fine, many people aren't. I would suggest reading more about the experiences of those that face these problems and approaching it with an open mind. 

My wife lived in fox lake for two years from the age of 10-12 because her mom was teaching there and life was horrible for her. She was picked on and beaten up because she was the only white girl in the community. It got to the point where she was scared for her safety and had to move.   An ex of mine was a 1/2 native and grew up of the reserve but when ever she visited family she was constantly beat up and in fights because wasn't considered a "real" native, because he mom was white.  These are real life experiences.   Sure maybe they weren't going to be killed because they were "white" but they were clearly discriminated against because of there skin.  

[Toews]

Just now, ForsbergTheGreat said:

My wife lived in fox lake for two years from the age of 10-12 because her mom was teaching there and life was horrible for her. She was picked on and beaten up because she was the only white girl in the community. It got to the point where she was scared for her safety and had to move.   An ex of mine was a 1/2 native and grew up of the reserve but when ever she visited family she was constantly beat up and in fights because wasn't considered a "real" native, because he mom was white.  These are real life experiences.   Sure maybe they weren't going to be killed because they were "white" but they were clearly discriminated against because of there skin.  

What you are describing is prejudice. And it can be just as ugly as racism but your wife was able to get away from it and leave the situation behind. For people of color there is no escape. Leaving one area doesn't mean you will face better treatment in another. That's the reality of racism that it is so entrenched in society that getting up and leaving the area still won't guarantee that you won't encounter it again. That's what African Americans have to face. For example leaving Chicago to go to New York doesn't mean that the police there will treat you any better.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 minute ago, Toews said:

It happened to you once. If it keeps happening to you, 3, 4, 5 times then you begin to lose your patience. Its not just about fitting a description, something goes wrong the first suspicion is on the black guy. If a description comes in about shots fired somewhere the guy, the person they single out is the black guy. Recently a NFL player Michael Bennett was detained by cops because of a fight and some statue falling over gave people the impression that shots had been fired. In the chaos and everyone trying to get away from what they perceived to be gun shots, the police singled out the big 6'3 black guy over everyone else. This is a common occurrence for black people. You can let it go once, maybe twice but if it keeps repeatedly happening to you but people who don't share the same color of skin do not have to face this then it will no doubt frustrate and anger you.

 

What are the cops supposed to do?

 

Maybe not look upon every black person as a suspect. Maybe not judge people based on the color of their skin, or their build. 

Again i asked for examples, as far i undrafted has provided it's happened once in his life time, same as me (that was falsely being accused of something, spent a few times in a drunk tank for legit reasonsings).  I also have plenty of black friends that have never had a single altercation with police, so there's more to play then simply all cop showing racism towards all black people.  Where you live and also plays a lot into the situations.  If you live mafia district, i'd assume the first suspension in that neighbour hood is an Italian.  

[Tystick]

24 minutes ago, Toews said:

What you are describing isn't racism, it's prejudice. There is a big difference between the two, you should read up on it if you are interested in learning more. Honestly your responses in this thread have been incredibly naive. Multiple people have come to the conclusion that you do not have any idea what you are talking about. You are lucky to have lived a very sheltered existence, away from the problems that many people of color deal with on a daily basis. No one is saying you are not allowed to have an opinion. They are just saying you are clueless and not very informed on the topic because the color of your skin protects you from the injustices that many certain people do have to face. Saying that to you is not racist, the fact that you drew that absurd conclusion just underscores that you aren't prepared to have this discussion. But that's fine, many people aren't. I would suggest reading more about the experiences of those that face these problems and approaching it with an open mind. 

Right, well actually it's called murder, but nice try, and good job taking things out of context. My responses have been fact-based and fair. I thought I was having a political debate, but apparently my words are now offending people. What exactly is it that I don't know? Please explain. Is it the different, unique problems people face? You're right. Just like you don't know the problems I face day to day. Our problems might not be equal and fair. Well guess what, life's not fair. I find it hilarious that you are now profiling me as if you know me. What does the color of my skin protect me from? I want evidence, statistics; not your opinion. I am very prepared for this discussion. Everyone I'm talking to circles back to the same argument. That I don't know what the black community goes through therefore I can't speak about the subject because I'm white (once again, racist). Yet the people debating me conveniently ignore that I've answered this argument already. I've never said individual racism doesn't exist, I said show me where it is and I'll fight it with you. When you start saying that it just must exist out there, I have a problem with that. This ends up fueling the liberal hysteria that's dividing the US.  

[Toews]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Again i asked for examples, as far i undrafted has provided it's happened once in his life time, same as me (that was falsely being accused of something, spent a few times in a drunk tank for legit reasonsings).  I also have plenty of black friends that have never had a single altercation with police, so there's more to play then simply all cop showing racism towards all black people.  Where you live and also plays a lot into the situations.  If you live mafia district, i'd assume the first suspension in that neighbour hood is an Italian.  

Actually @Undrafted has stated that he has been detained multiple times without cause.

 

There are plenty of people that have spoken about their experiences in the States and being detained multiple times. I choose to take their words at face value.

 

I honestly don't think this problem exists to the same extent in Canada. I might be wrong on that.

 

I am not saying that all cops are racist but when people keep repeating the same stories of constantly being harassed by the cops then its time to take the matter seriously. Sure a certain degree of profiling is to be expected but the police will still have a hard time telling between an Italian and say a Portuguese in your example. With black people the color of their skin makes them stand out and gets them targeted.