Canucks Prospect Michael DiPietro invited to Team Canada World Championship Team as a JUNIOR Goaltender

[IBatch]

Osgood was underrated kind of like Crawford is today.  Great team infront of him pundits consider that he was good but not great because of that...

I'm of the opinion he should be in the HHOF as both runs against PIT no way they get there without his outstanding play.  He's a prime example of goalies playing well right into retirement.  His winning percentage is right up there behind Dryden too, that does have a lot to do with him and his team.

[Guest]

On 2018-04-24 at 10:25 AM, tas said:

i wonder if he'll even get any pre-tournament looks or if this is just a way to get him involved in the program early, as they've likely identified him as a guy who might represent Canada in the future. 

Bingo! 

 

[Kevin Biestra]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Osgood was underrated kind of like Crawford is today.  Great team infront of him pundits consider that he was good but not great because of that...

I'm of the opinion he should be in the HHOF as both runs against PIT no way they get there without his outstanding play.  He's a prime example of goalies playing well right into retirement.  His winning percentage is right up there behind Dryden too, that does have a lot to do with him and his team.

I'd probably put him in too, but they haven't even inducted Barrasso or Vernon yet.  It's impossible for goalies to get their due with that committee.

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

I'd probably put him in too, but they haven't even inducted Barrasso or Vernon yet.  It's impossible for goalies to get their due with that committee.

You bet, I've read many times Barrasso hasn't gotten in due to his prickly personality, in dealing with the types that vote, not sure of the validity, especially with McDonalds involvement but he deserves the nod given winning the Vezina as an 18 year old and cups etc.  Vernon never won any invidual hardware, but he was one the best for a long time, and helped Calgary's best team and the early Detroit teams have some of their best seasons ever so he should be on the cusp.  Vachon got in so there is hope.

 

One thing that I've noticed is the last ten years or so guys that weren't good enough to get in right away or within a reasonable amount of time have been slipping in on down years.  Not sure I like this as it's supposed to be the HHOF, legends and greatness, not the Hall of very good.  This started with Gilles ( whom I dont have any problem with one of the best power forwards ever) and kind of snowballed.  

 

[Kevin Biestra]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

You bet, I've read many times Barrasso hasn't gotten in due to his prickly personality, in dealing with the types that vote, not sure of the validity, especially with McDonalds involvement but he deserves the nod given winning the Vezina as an 18 year old and cups etc.  Vernon never won any invidual hardware, but he was one the best for a long time, and helped Calgary's best team and the early Detroit teams have some of their best seasons ever so he should be on the cusp.  Vachon got in so there is hope.

 

One thing that I've noticed is the last ten years or so guys that weren't good enough to get in right away or within a reasonable amount of time have been slipping in on down years.  Not sure I like this as it's supposed to be the HHOF, legends and greatness, not the Hall of very good.  This started with Gilles ( whom I dont have any problem with one of the best power forwards ever) and kind of snowballed.  

 

I'm glad these guys are getting in.  Guys like Mark Howe and Rogie Vachon.  I think there are more deserving guys on the outside than undeserving guys on the inside.

 

I'm still waiting for Doug Wilson and Bernie Nicholls.

[IBatch]

24 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

I'm glad these guys are getting in.  Guys like Mark Howe and Rogie Vachon.  I think there are more deserving guys on the outside than undeserving guys on the inside.

 

I'm still waiting for Doug Wilson and Bernie Nicholls.

Doug Wilson is was a great defenseman, so was Mark Howe much deserving.   Guys that are a tier lower in my mind were Mike Recchi and Dave Andreychuk but it's hard to argue against either not being the hall too.  Longevity helped for sure which is why Thornton and Marleau will both get the call eventually too, the first deserving the second well that's debatable.  

 

Both Recchi and Dave never were close to any individual hardware but won cup(s) and are very high on the overall points or goals list that they got the nod.   To me Mogilny was a better player though.    Bure and Fedorov, Forsberg and Lindros too, even Naslund.    I'm on the side that players should only get in if they were exceptional talents, not just really good for a really long time.....

 

[Kevin Biestra]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Doug Wilson is was a great defenseman, so was Mark Howe much deserving.   Guys that are a tier lower in my mind were Mike Recchi and Dave Andreychuk but it's hard to argue against either not being the hall too.  Longevity helped for sure which is why Thornton and Marleau will both get the call eventually too, the first deserving the second well that's debatable.  

 

Both Recchi and Dave never were close to any individual hardware but won cup(s) and are very high on the overall points or goals list that they got the nod.   To me Mogilny was a better player though.    Bure and Fedorov, Forsberg and Lindros too, even Naslund.    I'm on the side that players should only get in if they were exceptional talents, not just really good for a really long time.....

 

I agree that Recchi and Andreychuk were never really close to being THE BEST player in the league.  But for me, there's a lot to be said for being an elite player and committed to the game for long enough to amass 600 goals or 1500 points.  While Recchi and Andreychuk never were really Hart Trophy contenders, their longevity at a high level sets them apart from players that had a similar peak, such as Hakan Loob or Al Secord, but didn't maintain that level long enough to break 1000 points (or captain a team to the championship or be a major participant in multiple Cups).

 

I'll probably lose some people here, but I think guys like Brian Propp and John Tonelli deserve serious consideration, especially considering their playoff and international hockey records.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

I agree that Recchi and Andreychuk were never really close to being THE BEST player in the league.  But for me, there's a lot to be said for being an elite player and committed to the game for long enough to amass 600 goals or 1500 points.  While Recchi and Andreychuk never were really Hart Trophy contenders, their longevity at a high level sets them apart from players that had a similar peak, such as Hakan Loob or Al Secord, but didn't maintain that level long enough to break 1000 points (or captain a team to the championship or be a major participant in multiple Cups).

 

I'll probably lose some people here, but I think guys like Brian Propp and John Tonelli deserve serious consideration, especially considering their playoff and international hockey records.

I like Tonelli for a few reasons, one been he was given the biggest compliment by the Russians in the early eighties during a tournament he dominated in, when they said he was the best player in the world.  I see your Propp and raise you a Tim Kerr.

[Kevin Biestra]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I like Tonelli for a few reasons, one been he was given the biggest compliment by the Russians in the early eighties during a tournament he dominated in, when they said he was the best player in the world.  I see your Propp and raise you a Tim Kerr.

Kerr is a really sad case.  He was GUARANTEED the Hall of Fame the way he was going, and had he stayed healthy.  He just needed a couple more good years, and he would have got the Kariya / Lindros induction.  I wish his body had held up.

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

Kerr is a really sad case.  He was GUARANTEED the Hall of Fame the way he was going, and had he stayed healthy.  He just needed a couple more good years, and he would have got the Kariya / Lindros induction.  I wish his body had held up.

Definitely, even still what he did manage was impressive, he was a huge man with gifted hands, his GPG is right up there with the pack below Bossy.  Paul Reinhart might have had an outside chance at 800+ points too which is enough to get the call from his era too, both guys were done well before their primes were over.  Sad for sure.  Back to the initial discussion I have Doug Wilson as a snub that probably won't ever get in it's been too long  (although Vachon didn't see it coming after all that time so you never do know) I think he should be in, Osgood an eventual member and Barasso what the heck is wrong with them anyways.  Mogilny should get in too.   The Sedins, Iginla, St.Louis and Thornton should get in from that era, and Luongo of course.    

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Definitely, even still what he did manage was impressive, he was a huge man with gifted hands, his GPG is right up there with the pack below Bossy.  Paul Reinhart might have had an outside chance at 800+ points too which is enough to get the call from his era too, both guys were done well before their primes were over.  Sad for sure.  Back to the initial discussion I have Doug Wilson as a snub that probably won't ever get in it's been too long  (although Vachon didn't see it coming after all that time so you never do know) I think he should be in, Osgood an eventual member and Barasso what the heck is wrong with them anyways.  Mogilny should get in too.   The Sedins, Iginla, St.Louis and Thornton should get in from that era, and Luongo of course.    

I love Reinhart, but if he's getting in, then we should also talk about Dave Babych.  Anyway, before either of them, you have Randy Carlyle with similar points and a Norris Trophy to go with them.

 

I agree that all of Sedins, Iginla, St. Louis and Thornton will get in.

 

I think Mogilny eventually will too, although Bernie Nicholls on the outside doesn't help him.  And Luongo...I'd have him in for sure.  But then I'd also have Vernon and Barrasso in almost on the first ballot, so...my opinions are not a very good indicator of how things will go.

 

#VotePropositionPropp

[MattJVD]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

I love Reinhart, but if he's getting in, then we should also talk about Dave Babych.  Anyway, before either of them, you have Randy Carlyle with similar points and a Norris Trophy to go with them.

 

I agree that all of Sedins, Iginla, St. Louis and Thornton will get in.

 

I think Mogilny eventually will too, although Bernie Nicholls on the outside doesn't help him.  And Luongo...I'd have him in for sure.  But then I'd also have Vernon and Barrasso in almost on the first ballot, so...my opinions are not a very good indicator of how things will go.

 

#VotePropositionPropp

Don't think Marleau has it? 

He'll probably retire with 550+ goals, 1200+ points, 2 Olympic Golds, 1 World Championship Gold, and he's the youngest player in NHL history to hit the 1000 game mark (and 1300, and 1400).

No NHL individual awards though, is that the difference maker?

[Kevin Biestra]

11 minutes ago, MattJVD said:

Don't think Marleau has it? 

He'll probably retire with 550+ goals, 1200+ points, 2 Olympic Golds, 1 World Championship Gold, and he's the youngest player in NHL history to hit the 1000 game mark (and 1300, and 1400).

No NHL individual awards though, is that the difference maker?

I didn't mean to imply that I think he won't.  But I think he isn't quite a lock.

 

I place some value on things like youngest player to hit 1000 games and so on, but it seems like "the committee" couldn't care less.  884 consecutive games and 1000+ points hasn't done anything for Steve Larmer.  I'd put Marleau in, in a Dave Andreychuk-like fashion.  He'll become top 10 in games played in NHL history next year, and that's something I value (but which the committee probably doesn't too much).

 

I don't think World Championship medals count for really anything at all with the HOF committee.  Hopefully the Olympic golds will.  But as I pointed out earlier, Canada Cup championship team + 5 Stanley Cup finals + 1000+ points hasn't done it for Brian Propp, and Canada Cup MVP (over Gretzky) + 4 Stanley Cups + around 980 NHL+WHA points hasn't done it for John Tonelli.

 

It's just hard to say for sure whether Marleau gets in if Bernie Nicholls and Pierre Turgeon don't.

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

I didn't mean to imply that I think he won't.  But I think he isn't quite a lock.

 

I place some value on things like youngest player to hit 1000 games and so on, but it seems like "the committee" couldn't care less.  884 consecutive games and 1000+ points hasn't done anything for Steve Larmer.  I'd put Marleau in, in a Dave Andreychuk-like fashion.  He'll become top 10 in games played in NHL history next year, and that's something I value (but which the committee probably doesn't too much).

 

I don't think World Championship medals count for really anything at all with the HOF committee.  Hopefully the Olympic golds will.  But as I pointed out earlier, Canada Cup championship team + 5 Stanley Cup finals + 1000+ points hasn't done it for Brian Propp, and Canada Cup MVP (over Gretzky) + 4 Stanley Cups + around 980 NHL+WHA points hasn't done it for John Tonelli.

 

It's just hard to say for sure whether Marleau gets in if Bernie Nicholls and Pierre Turgeon don't.

The thing that probably hurt Nicholls chances the most was his trade out of LA, earlier that season after posting some 150 points and 70 + goals playing with Gretzky he asked the owners if he should buy a house and make plans to stay a while.  They said not to worry and to buy a house.  Then traded him and the best gig in hockey at the time.   Take away that one season and his stats weren't the same.

 

Turgeon another great talent.   I think cups matter when they consider these guys, as do individual awards.  Olympic medals too, but only since 98, before Canada Cups probably mattered too.   Marleau is definitely like a modern day Recchi or Andreychuk in that he was very good (but not great) for a very long time.  I remember ten years ago discussing if he had it in him to score 800 goals given he started so early and up to then he was on pace, obviously he did not.  Six hundred should be within reach if he doesn't get injured and now everyone with six hundred is in so I think he will get the in,  plus he played his early year in the dead puck era and it's not like goals have ever gone back to pre 95 levels.  Also if the Sedins get in you also have to consider Alfie.  

 

Edit:. I agree what you said earlier about Carlyle, and Reinhart was a Kerr like guy whos career was cut short but with longevity might have ended up with enough points for consideration.  I was wondering if Babych would come up, he's way up there in all-time scoring, with some big names already in around where he is, but of course that will never happen.  He was never a Norris nominated guy, playing with some pretty stellar competition during his era.  Still he had some great years in WNP and as Canuck fans know was strong as an ox (bye bye Probert hip check was a thing of beauty).

 

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

The thing that probably hurt Nicholls chances the most was his trade out of LA, earlier that season after posting some 150 points and 70 + goals playing with Gretzky he asked the owners if he should buy a house and make plans to stay a while.  They said not to worry and to buy a house.  Then traded him and the best gig in hockey at the time.   Take away that one season and his stats weren't the same.

 

Turgeon another great talent.   I think cups matter when they consider these guys, as do individual awards.  Olympic medals too, but only since 98, before Canada Cups probably mattered too.   Marleau is definitely like a modern day Recchi or Andreychuk in that he was very good (but not great) for a very long time.  I remember ten years ago discussing if he had it in him to score 800 goals given he started so early and up to then he was on pace, obviously he did not.  Six hundred should be within reach if he doesn't get injured and now everyone with six hundred is in so I think he will get the in,  plus he played his early year in the dead puck era and it's not like goals have ever gone back to pre 95 levels.  Also if the Sedins get in you also have to consider Alfie.  

 

Edit:. I agree what you said earlier about Carlyle, and Reinhart was a Kerr like guy whos career was cut short but with longevity might have ended up with enough points for consideration.  I was wondering if Babych would come up, he's way up there in all-time scoring, with some big names already in around where he is, but of course that will never happen.  He was never a Norris nominated guy, playing with some pretty stellar competition during his era.  Still he had some great years in WNP and as Canuck fans know was strong as an ox (bye bye Probert hip check was a thing of beauty).

 

Nicholls was still a 100 point player before Gretzky (3 straight seasons with 95+) and his playoff numbers are surprisingly good.  Dionne had 45 career playoff points.  Nicholls had 114.

 

But yeah, that trade to the Rangers was a really bad break for him.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

Nicholls was still a 100 point player before Gretzky (3 straight seasons with 95+) and his playoff numbers are surprisingly good.  Dionne had 45 career playoff points.  Nicholls had 114.

 

But yeah, that trade to the Rangers was a really bad break for him.

Reading about that trade from Gretzky point of view it blindsided him, he was on the top of the world and envisioned many more years in LA.  Owners can be such dicks at times, this is a good example and it likely derailed a first ballot career for him.  Dionne was the best player never to win a cup....I watched him and Lafluer play a few years after retirement in an old timers game against  the firefighters in Victoria and he was all over the ice doing circles around everyone including Lafluer.  Imagine how many goals he would have scored in MTL if they picked him instead...Marcel says he'd easily score 1000.

[Gurn]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Dionne was the best player never to win a cup...

Dale Hawerchuck is on that list as well

[189lb enforcers?]

16 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

I didn't mean to imply that I think he won't.  But I think he isn't quite a lock.

 

I place some value on things like youngest player to hit 1000 games and so on, but it seems like "the committee" couldn't care less.  884 consecutive games and 1000+ points hasn't done anything for Steve Larmer.  I'd put Marleau in, in a Dave Andreychuk-like fashion.  He'll become top 10 in games played in NHL history next year, and that's something I value (but which the committee probably doesn't too much).

 

I don't think World Championship medals count for really anything at all with the HOF committee.  Hopefully the Olympic golds will.  But as I pointed out earlier, Canada Cup championship team + 5 Stanley Cup finals + 1000+ points hasn't done it for Brian Propp, and Canada Cup MVP (over Gretzky) + 4 Stanley Cups + around 980 NHL+WHA points hasn't done it for John Tonelli.

 

It's just hard to say for sure whether Marleau gets in if Bernie Nicholls and Pierre Turgeon don't.

Yes, good post.

As terrific of a career as he’s had, there are some players much more deserving to get into the hall, first, at least. 

[189lb enforcers?]

Dionne was one of the best players, ever. 

Shame he doesn’t get mentioned more. 

[Kevin Biestra]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Reading about that trade from Gretzky point of view it blindsided him, he was on the top of the world and envisioned many more years in LA.  Owners can be such dicks at times, this is a good example and it likely derailed a first ballot career for him.  Dionne was the best player never to win a cup....I watched him and Lafluer play a few years after retirement in an old timers game against  the firefighters in Victoria and he was all over the ice doing circles around everyone including Lafluer.  Imagine how many goals he would have scored in MTL if they picked him instead...Marcel says he'd easily score 1000.

What are your thoughts on Guy Carbonneau?