The TDL Benning Complaint Thread Department

[TheRealistOptimist]

33 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Anyone that believes that trading the picks haven't hurt us either believes JB is extremely incompetent at drafting or they don't have a clue about what it takes to build a NHL roster.

 

3x 2nds, 2x 3rds, 2x 4th, 2x 5th, 6th, has resulted in Baertschi, Pouliot and Pearson..  If people don't believe JB could have found some better talent in those 10 picks than what we have to show for it, than do they really believe JB is still a drafting Guru?   Surely the drafting specialist he is could have found more than that.

 

PS. it wasn't a 5th we gave up in the pedan + for pouliot trade.

Nobody has said they didn't want more draft picks. I bet you couldn't find one single person on CDC who has said they don't want more draft picks unless they were trolling. 

 

It's the biggest straw man argument on here. 
 

I also know many "Benning supporters" (although I think their more "don't fire Benning at this point" people), that are able to admit that Benning has made mistakes. It's just the Benning detractors over exaggerate the mistakes so much and make them seem much worse than they are and try not to give him credit for anything. 

 

 

[TheRealistOptimist]

4 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

adding picks is inconsequential to a rebuilding team with a struggling farm system?  

no the signing of FA like Gagner, Del Zotto, Nilsson, trades of draft picks for Etem, Larsen, Pouliot, etc...

 

Those are the types of inconsequential moves I'm talking about.

[Tomatoes11]

1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said:

Well Brisebois, Sautner, Gaudette and Demko being plucked from Utica really depleted their roster. I think Gadjovich and Lind improve upon their year, Palmu could return after his stay in Europe, Lockwood will likely be signed, Mitch Eliot, Rathbone could be a possibility. Not quite as bleak as you make it. 

 

 

As for the Etem, Pedan, Granlund etc. Granlund had a 19 goal season and even though he struggled offensively this year doesn't hurt the team. Definitely not trash. 

 

Etem didn't pan out wasnt good or awful, same goes for Pedan.

 

Sutter was 26 when acquired not “nearly 30”

 

Prust was a dud his attitude was awful but Kassian was a wreck here towards the end. 

 

Gudbranson wasn't trash, wasn't what we all hoped he'd be but as you can see from his play in Pittsburgh he definitely isn't trash either. 

 

Baertschi despite some bad luck with injuries was a great pick up. 

 

Benning hit at about the same odds in the trades as you get keeping the picks just sped up the process. 

 

Either way picks aren't being traded so why keep bringing it up? 

 

 

 

 

Lol sped up the process?! None of that garbage like Granlund and Baertschit will have any bearing whatsoever on the Canucks team that eventually wins a cup.

 

Why do we even need to speed up the process? And why would we waste picks and prospects to do so? Should have stayed course like any competent GM would have. 

[canuck73_3]

Just now, The 5th Line said:

I'm talking about giving away picks for players that did nothing while they were here.  It was a 6th and Jensen who was probably just as good as Etem.  I don't care if it was a 6th rounder or a 20th rounder, far too many were wasted and you can't even admit it?  I like Jim I don't want him fired. But I can admit that we wasted away a lot of assets that could be helping our organization right now

I don't think a 6th rd pick (Dominik Lakatos) is worth crying over. It's easy to say the picks were wasted with 3 and 4 years of hindsight.

 

It's easy to say trade everybody for picks. The team is trending upwards one year removed from the Sedin’s. We have Brisebois, Teves, Eliot, Lockwood and likely Rathbone, and possibly Palmu in Utica next year on top of players already there. DiPietro and Woo on the way to Utica soon after like I said earlier not as bleak as you paint the picture. 

 

 

[canuck73_3]

2 minutes ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Lol sped up the process?! None of that garbage like Granlund and Baertschit will have any bearing whatsoever on the Canucks team that eventually wins a cup.

 

Why do we even need to be speed up the process? And why would we waste picks and prospects to do this? Should have stayed course like any competent GM would have. 

Again lane name calling warrants your opinion worthless. Drop that crap and maybe I'll continue responding. 

[Tomatoes11]

53 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Anyone that believes that trading the picks haven't hurt us either believes JB is extremely incompetent at drafting or they don't have a clue about what it takes to build a NHL roster.

 

3x 2nds, 2x 3rds, 2x 4th, 2x 5th, 6th, has resulted in Baertschi, Pouliot and Pearson..  If people don't believe JB could have found some better talent in those 10 picks than what we have to show for it, than do they really believe JB is still a drafting Guru?   Surely the drafting specialist he is could have found more than that.

 

PS. it wasn't a 5th we gave up in the pedan + for pouliot trade.

Not just the picks. Forsling and Mcaan would have been nice too. Heck, even Kassian probably would have been better than the other rejects we got. 

 

Even Subban. If he ever became 1/10th of his brother he would be better than a lot of our Current D. Most likely a bust yes, but I’d rather gamble on him than Dowd who we let walk for free.

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Not just the picks. Forsling and Mcaan would have been nice too. Heck, even Kassian probably would have been better than the other rejects we got. 

 

Even Subban. If he ever became 1/10th of his brother he would be better than a lot of our Current D. Most likely a bust yes, but I’d rather gamble on him than Dowd who we let walk for free.

Forsling is a fringe player. 

 

McCann while good wasn't well liked in the room and to acquire a young physical defenseman you do have to give up quality. 

 

IMO Florida made the worse decision regarding McCann trading him for players who will walk at seasons end. 

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, The 5th Line said:

Why are you naming the player drafted like it's relevant?  It's not like we would of ended up with that player.  Aren't you using hindsight by saying this Lakatos guy isn't worth crying over?

 

Fine you win, we haven't wasted our draft picks on useless players over the years.  

 

 

Obviously we don't know who Benning would have picked maybe Lakatos maybe someone else, but we do that is the player picked with that pick. Jury still out on Lakatos ever becoming anything but we do know Etem was much better than Jensen. Not really a trade I would praise or lament 3 years later. 

[TheRealistOptimist]

15 minutes ago, Tomatoes11 said:

5 years is a long time to tear it down completely. Doesn’t matter how handcuffed you think he was that’s a long time. We should be much further along right now in the rebuild for sure. 

 

Dont see how people can justify a 5 year tear down.

No it's not, I just posted examples of how Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA built through the draft. 

 

Each had 4 year runs of having the worst combined records over that time. It took them all 5 drafts+ to turn it around and closer to 6 to 7 years to go from bottom to Stanley Cup Champions. The difference, Pittsburgh drafted #1 twice, #2 twice and #5 once. Chicago drafted #1 once, #3 twice, LA drafted #2 once, #4 once and #5 once. We have only drafted in the top 5 twice in the last 4 years and they were both only #5. 

 

This is only going to be our 4th year drafting high, we need to be patient for a couple more years before we see the team as a consistent playoff team and then hopefully Cup Contender after that. 

[Tomatoes11]

14 minutes ago, TheRealistOptimist said:

No it's not, I just posted examples of how Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA built through the draft. 

 

Each had 4 year runs of having the worst combined records over that time. It took them all 5 drafts+ to turn it around and closer to 6 to 7 years to go from bottom to Stanley Cup Champions. The difference, Pittsburgh drafted #1 twice, #2 twice and #5 once. Chicago drafted #1 once, #3 twice, LA drafted #2 once, #4 once and #5 once. We have only drafted in the top 5 twice in the last 4 years and they were both only #5. 

 

This is only going to be our 4th year drafting high, we need to be patient for a couple more years before we see the team as a consistent playoff team and then hopefully Cup Contender after that. 

Just because the had the worse combined records over a 5 year span doesn’t mean that’s how long they took to tear down. Could have easily been a 2 year teardown and 3 years of growing pains.

 

Ours was literally a 5 year tear down.

 

I hope you are right for the sake of me ever seeing a cup, but sorry, I don’t see us making noise next year yet. We would have to make serious noise next year to be in the same trajectory as those teams you mentioned. And if we give it a couple of more years like you said to, we would be way off that trajectory. Which means I would be right in saying 5 years is a lonnnggg time just to tear something down.

[TheRealistOptimist]

1 hour ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Just because the had the worse combined records over a 5 year span doesn’t mean that’s how long they took to tear down. Could have easily been a 2 year teardown and 3 years of growing pains.

 

Ours was literally a 5 year tear down.

 

I hope you are right for the sake of me ever seeing a cup, but sorry, I don’t see us making noise next year yet. We would have to make serious noise next year to be in the same trajectory as those teams you mentioned. And if we give it a couple of more years like you said to, we would be way off that trajectory. Which means I would be right in saying 5 years is a lonnnggg time just to tear something down.

We're only in year 4 since we started falling back in the standings. 

After the Pens drafted Malkin, Crosby in back to back years, they finished 2nd last in the NHL the next year and got the #2nd Overall pick (J. Staal over J. Toews). 

End of the year finishes for a 4 year period - 2001-02 26th, 02-03 29th, 03-04 30th, 05-06 29th 

 

After the Hawks drafted #3 and #7 in back to back years, they finally got it right and drafted J. Toews #3 Overall in the 2006 NHL Draft, then the following year they finished 25th (6th worst), but they lucked out and won the Lottery and drafted Patrick Kane #1 in 2007. They didn't turn it around until the 2008-09 season.

End of the year finishes for a 4 year period - 2003-04 29th, 05-06 28th, 06-07 26th, 07-08 20th 

 

After LA Drafted #4, #2 and #5 in consecutive years, they had two first round playoff knockouts and then they won the Cup in 2012. 

End of year finishes for a 5 year period - 2003-04 20th, 05-06 20th, 06-07 28th, 07-08 29th, 08-09 26th

 

None of these teams turnarounds were immediate.

 

I thought I laid it out quite nicely. They weren't  2-3 year tear downs as you mentioned they could've been. You can easily do the research. 

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, chilliwiggins said:

Horvat was a Gillis pick

dude they have to at least play nhl games to be quantifiable to any degree and that’s where the problem lies.   And even the fact that draftee have been gifted seasons of play at the nhl level when they had no business in the nhl

 

 

 

Absolutely on the button, Horvat is a Gillis pick which is why I mentioned it but someone else pointed that out.    

 

I agree that the prospects don’t really count as anything if they never play NHL games AND make an impact relative to their draft position.  That’s why I’m preaching patience.  You attacked his drafting and development and cried for new management earlier, when his is one are that Benning may already be ahead of ALL his predecessors.  You say you followed the team since 82.  

 

Quin was a great GM, still my personal favourite, but his drafting wasn’t really that good, except for Bure.  Stajanov and Antoski one high and one that today would be a mid-first rounder back to back, in a time where all first rounders had a good-great chance of making it given how many teams played in the NHL.  Linden was a great pick at 2, but again unless you missed completely when there was only 21 teams in the league each year HHOFers could be found well into the first round and a number two pick was a golden ticket.  It still is today.   

 

Bennings picked the best in the draft year at five.  Imagine if he picked a Stajanov type (total bust) instead of Hughes at 7? 

 

Now as trading goes Quin is the best we’ve had to date unquestionably.   But Bennings a good drafter, go back and look at where we picked from the beginning and who was still available (who we passed on)....there are more misses than hits, and our average draft position from inception to Linden...let’s just say we could have done so much better than we did.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Just because the had the worse combined records over a 5 year span doesn’t mean that’s how long they took to tear down. Could have easily been a 2 year teardown and 3 years of growing pains.

 

Ours was literally a 5 year tear down.

 

I hope you are right for the sake of me ever seeing a cup, but sorry, I don’t see us making noise next year yet. We would have to make serious noise next year to be in the same trajectory as those teams you mentioned. And if we give it a couple of more years like you said to, we would be way off that trajectory. Which means I would be right in saying 5 years is a lonnnggg time just to tear something down.

It’s pretty common knowledge that a complete tear down wasn’t going to happen until the Sedins retired no matter what.  I’d say the roster turnover reached a tear down of what was possible when Burrows and Hansen and Bieksa were sent packing.   The first two years didn’t work, and WD comeback year didn’t help things much (7th overall record) gave false hope the re-tool was working.

 

It is what it is, another high pick this year, and maybe the following one too and then we should start finding out what this young group of players is capable of.  Five years from now EP will only be 25.  Hughes 24.  Horvat 28.  It could take that long to get the best out of their primes, but I’d say with what’s coming behind them added plus at least three or four support players from the draft this team had a decent at worst chance of doing some damage.  Doesn’t mean we won’t make the playoffs before then (I’m thinking maybe next year, likely the following one), it just gives you an idea on how young our team is now, and how young it’s going to be for a long time.  Maybe Benning is still running the club, maybe he isn’t but whomever takes over better be smart enough to keep the core together because it will be one of the best and youngest ones around.

[GreyHatnDart]

7 hours ago, The 5th Line said:

Like how gagner was easy to move, and how Eriksson will be easy to move, and Sutter, etc etc ya ya.  I don't mind Beagle that much he didn't cost picks

 adding picks is inconsequential to a rebuilding team with a struggling farm system?  

Gagner and Eriksson didn’t cost picks either. Absolutely free assets, and while converting those players into picks/prospects is ideal, if Benning isn’t able to, it’s really a net loss of zero. 

[189lb enforcers?]

This thread could easily be renamed, The Silver-linings thread, concerning JB. 

Had he been aiming for the top 5-7 all along, it would be a different title. 

 

 

 

[73 Percent]

2 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

This thread could easily be renamed, The Silver-linings thread, concerning JB. 

Had he been aiming for the top 5-7 all along, it would be a different title. 

 

 

 

Yeah i think that little glimpse of playoff hope kind of messed with alot of our minds. At the end of the day you have to be blind to not see that this team is trending upwards.

[73 Percent]

49 minutes ago, GreyHatnDart said:

Gagner and Eriksson didn’t cost picks either. Absolutely free assets, and while converting those players into picks/prospects is ideal, if Benning isn’t able to, it’s really a net loss of zero. 

Assets would mean that they hold value. They do not. Negative value maybe. 

[189lb enforcers?]

46 minutes ago, GreyHatnDart said:

Gagner and Eriksson didn’t cost picks either. Absolutely free assets, and while converting those players into picks/prospects is ideal, if Benning isn’t able to, it’s really a net loss of zero. 

True, but let’s not pretend those signings were meant to help draft # 5-7, where kids like OJ, EP, or QH are found.

These results are the Silver linings of a failed strategy meant to have the “rebuild” roster remain ‘competitive’. 

 

FTR, I am not really looking to replace JB, not yet at least.

 

After seeing EP get smashed I am more inclined to see him get fired for his lack of vision that way, but I want him to “silver linings” this franchise for one more season, maybe even two.

 

If Schenn hadn’t miraculously, and that’s what it’s been, turned the clock back any started playing like he did when he was 18 again and fiercely protecting the kids, I’d be more inclined to dump on JB. Things see, to have worked out though and you know what they say, “you’ve got to be lucky to be good...”.

 

 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

8 minutes ago, 73 Percent said:

Yeah i think that little glimpse of playoff hope kind of messed with alot of our minds. At the end of the day you have to be blind to not see that this team is trending upwards.

Blind indeed, but is that what is being argued in this thread these days?

After last night, you’d have to troll pretty hard to convince anyone that there isn’t a future here.

How the team got there was what I’d assumed folks were still batting back and forth. 

 

[GreyHatnDart]

9 minutes ago, 73 Percent said:

Assets would mean that they hold value. They do not. Negative value maybe. 

No doubt, but take a look at why they were signed, and when they were signed. Eriksson was a proven commodity internationally with the Sedin’s during the “retool” phase. Coming off a 30 goal season. Smart player who scores garbage goals in front of the net. On paper, seemed like a good fit. 

Gagner has a successful 50 point season with Columbus, and our centre depth and PP needed a lot of help iirc. Overpayment for both, for sure, in hindsight. Had either or both players been successful here you would be praising Benning for his smart moves. He can’t hit home runs with every move, nobody does. 

 

2 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

True, but let’s not pretend those signings were meant to help draft # 5-7, where kids like OJ, EP, or QH are found.

These results are the Silver linings of a failed strategy meant to have the “rebuild” roster remain ‘competitive’. 

 

FTR, I am not really looking to replace JB, not yet at least.

 

After seeing EP get smashed I am more inclined to see him get fired for his lack of vision that way, but I want him to “silver linings” this franchise for one more season, maybe even two.

 

If Schenn hadn’t miraculously, and that’s what it’s been, turned the clock back any started playing like he did when he was 18 again and fiercely protecting the kids, I’d be more inclined to dump on JB. Things see, to have worked out though and you know what they say, “you’ve got to be lucky to be good...”.

 

 

 

Wasn’t arguing that point. Accidental tank, stealth tank, whatever you want to call it, seems to be working. So I’m unsure why the tank crowd is upset with the results this season? The team was a blast to watch this year for the most part, we have young players almost all trending the right way at the NHL level and in the pool. Next year should be another step in the right direction. 

 

His lack of vision to protect his players? What do you call Gudbranson or Dorsett? He recognized we weren’t tough and gritty enough and made trades to acquire players to stand up for teammates. Dorsett was forced into retirement and Gudbranson didn’t come close imo to playing the way we needed him to. Again, hindsight is 20/20. 

 

You gotta be lucky to be good, but you gotta be good to be lucky. I’m not a rose-coloured glasses Benning fan, he’s made his share of mistakes for sure. But if we’re going to continue beating the dead horse of when the rebuild should’ve began, bad past signings and contracts, etc etc etc... I just don’t see the point? I for one can see why certain moves were made at the time they were made, and clearly not all of them have worked out. End of the day though is as I said, this team is trending the right way and I have no reason to think it won’t continue on an upward trajectory.