Louie Eriksson and Jake Virtanen and Jim Benning

[VIC_CITY]

On 4/17/2019 at 7:25 AM, stawns said:

I'm basing my opinion on his play on all three zones, which is, actually, quite good in two of them 

I don't know man, I think Eriksson took a significant step back defensively this year. He wasn't very effective on the PK and there were a lot of nights where the effort just wasn't there. He didn't use to be this passive defensively. He was never an overly phsyical player but he used to be a lot harder on the puck. I think he's somewhat checked out, coupled with the fact that he's been on the decline for a few years now. He isn't going to score enough to justify that contract but you better be giving the team $6M worth of effort on a nightly basis and I just didn't see that out of him this year.

[VIC_CITY]

23 hours ago, rekker said:

Have to admit if we are stuck with LE the LE, BO, Pearson line has intrigued.

Noooooo, for the love of god, Jim - get Bo a bloody winger! Pearson, Baertschi and Eriksson can all fight to the death over the last winger spot but Bo needs someone better to play with. 

[VIC_CITY]

22 hours ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Yeah the bench is one of his better zones he's good at, forgot about that one .

 

But seriously, even the one Zone where I give him some credit in on D I don't even think he's that good at it to be honest, he's decent but not crazy good. Just that's all he has for his game so it stands out better then the rest of his game, but I personally don't think he's that good at it he's just decent.

Yup. People up here acting like LE is a selke nominee. Not surprising, it's the pro Sutter/Gudbranson crowd leading the charge.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, oldnews said:

And likewise, the majority of that talent they've surrounded their 1st overall lottery and UFA signings with - pre-dated the alleged 'Shanaplan' #proper-rebuild.

 

One other asset aside from lottery/Auston - Travis Dermott -in the lineup out of their last 5 drafts.....

 

The 'rebuild' has actually been going on....for a decade.....or longer.

 

And still - they don't really have the depth of their competitors/other contenders.  They have a fourth line they can't play/trust in key situations, and a blueline that is still about an injury away from disaster.

 

Having guys like Tavares and Marner taking dzone after dzone draw, blocking shots and scratching and clawing to preserve a lead late in games...is not what I'd call a brilliant 'rebuild.'

I agree with most of what your saying with exception of a few guys you didn’t name.  Specifically Kapanen, Hyman and Andreas Johnsson.  All three of those guys are the type you want on your team to win playoff games.  That said without Tavares and AM (let’s say they got MT instead, and not Puljajarvi and drafted 4th) they’d be struggling to make the playoffs right now, comparable to us actually (Marner/EP Nylander/Boeser/Kafdri/Horvat/Reilly/Hughes etc.)    They have had some luck which has propelled them into a different sphere.   Those other guys Johnsson, Hyman and Kapanen are the guys that could push them over the top though.  If they beat  Boston that’s no small thing, they are undoubtedly a contender right now. 

 

Personally Im conflicted.   Want any Canadian team to finally bring the cup home but TO is my last choice.  Would rather see CAL do it, and I still hate those guys dating back to 89.  And I wouldn’t look forward to the threads about how perfect the Shanahanplan was.  Basically lose and get first overall and draft AM, then poach Tavares their plan worked.   That said I would be happy to see the cup North of the border again, and they do have enough pieces to do it.

[oldnews]

2 hours ago, VIC_CITY said:

Yup. People up here acting like LE is a selke nominee. Not surprising, it's the pro Sutter/Gudbranson crowd leading the charge.

Meh.  When you can't make a point that stands up, or refer to what people are saying -  create a straw one that you might think makes it easier for you.

 

I'd be interested in the quote where anyone on these boards suggests Loui "is a Selke nominee".   Straw nonsense.  I can make embellished crap up as well and put it in your mouth - it wouldn't make them your words.

 

I doubt anyone here would put him beside Bergeron, O'Reilly, or Stone.

At the same time, I doubt you'd be able to flush out what makes them Selke candidates, aside from the level of production that seems to be a prerequisite in NHL Selke circles for some reason.

 

And whether you like it or not, the fact of the matter is that Eriksson has been a 4 time Selke candidate in his career, so mock the people that realize his defensive abilities - or those that realize Sutter's - but wadr, I'd like to hear the basis on which you make these kind of claims - if there's anything to it.   And another fact of the matter - it's rare that a winger like Eriksson or Stone get serious consideration, meaning they were actually exceptional.

I've posted Eriksson's (and Sutter's) defensive, puck-possession, etc numbers many times - I rarely see more than a one-line straw story out of you - not unlike your claim above that "Eriksson took a significant step backward this year."

 

Just a quick look - doesn't confirm that whatsover.

 

16/17

50.5% ozone starts,  50.5% corsi

2.6 on ice goals against per 60

11 goals, 24 pts

37 takeaways, 16 giveaways, +19

 

17/18

46.9% ozone starts, 49.5% corsi

2.4 on ice goals against per 60

10 goals 23 pts,

25 takeaways,  9 giveaways, +16

 

18/19

38.0% ozone starts, 47% corsi

2.6 on ice goals against per 60

11 goals, 29 pts

29 takeaways, 10 giveaways, +19

 

Nothing there at all to indicate a "significant step backwards" - in fact his numbers are quite consistent, his minutes were harder, and his 'possession numbers' arguably the best in the three years he's been here. 

 

I think you're the one following  "a charge" - on what basis is a mystery - and it's not towards accurate assessment of a player, or representing any real outcomes or trends - ie actual information.

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by oldnews

[oldnews]

9 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I agree with most of what your saying with exception of a few guys you didn’t name.  Specifically Kapanen, Hyman and Andreas Johnsson.  All three of those guys are the type you want on your team to win playoff games.  That said without Tavares and AM (let’s say they got MT instead, and not Puljajarvi and drafted 4th) they’d be struggling to make the playoffs right now, comparable to us actually (Marner/EP Nylander/Boeser/Kafdri/Horvat/Reilly/Hughes etc.)    They have had some luck which has propelled them into a different sphere.   Those other guys Johnsson, Hyman and Kapanen are the guys that could push them over the top though.  If they beat  Boston that’s no small thing, they are undoubtedly a contender right now. 

 

Personally Im conflicted.   Want any Canadian team to finally bring the cup home but TO is my last choice.  Would rather see CAL do it, and I still hate those guys dating back to 89.  And I wouldn’t look forward to the threads about how perfect the Shanahanplan was.  Basically lose and get first overall and draft AM, then poach Tavares their plan worked.   That said I would be happy to see the cup North of the border again, and they do have enough pieces to do it.

Kapanen plays on Matthews' wing, Hyman on Tavares.

I was talking about depth - the fact that Babcock can't and won't rely on his fourth line, for example, in key situations.

Picking a couple responsible, two way wingers out of their top 6 isn't really a response to the point I was making.  Yeah - I like Kapanen - but that's beside the point.

[VIC_CITY]

18 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I agree with most of what your saying with exception of a few guys you didn’t name.  Specifically Kapanen, Hyman and Andreas Johnsson.  All three of those guys are the type you want on your team to win playoff games.  That said without Tavares and AM (let’s say they got MT instead, and not Puljajarvi and drafted 4th) they’d be struggling to make the playoffs right now, comparable to us actually (Marner/EP Nylander/Boeser/Kafdri/Horvat/Reilly/Hughes etc.)    They have had some luck which has propelled them into a different sphere.   Those other guys Johnsson, Hyman and Kapanen are the guys that could push them over the top though.  If they beat  Boston that’s no small thing, they are undoubtedly a contender right now. 

 

Personally Im conflicted.   Want any Canadian team to finally bring the cup home but TO is my last choice.  Would rather see CAL do it, and I still hate those guys dating back to 89.  And I wouldn’t look forward to the threads about how perfect the Shanahanplan was.  Basically lose and get first overall and draft AM, then poach Tavares their plan worked.   That said I would be happy to see the cup North of the border again, and they do have enough pieces to do it.

I don't like that our home games start early when the Leafs are in town and I wish Canadian media wasn't so TO biased, but I have a hard time finding anything to dislike about the actual team. They're a young, offensive and exciting team that just so happens to be based out of Toronto. Personally, I'd rather see TO win a cup than conference rivals like Edmonton and Calgary. I think I'm in the minority though for some reason.

[Noble 6]

4 hours ago, oldnews said:

And likewise, the majority of that talent they've surrounded their 1st overall lottery and UFA signings with - pre-dated the alleged 'Shanaplan' #proper-rebuild.

 

One other asset aside from lottery/Auston - Travis Dermott -in the lineup out of their last 5 drafts.....

 

The 'rebuild' has actually been going on....for a decade.....or longer.

 

And still - they don't really have the depth of their competitors/other contenders.  They have a fourth line they can't play/trust in key situations, and a blueline that is still about an injury away from disaster.

 

Having guys like Tavares and Marner taking dzone after dzone draw, blocking shots and scratching and clawing to preserve a lead late in games...is not what I'd call a brilliant 'rebuild.'

 

They have been rebuilding for a decade or longer, but only got over the hump once they got good management. That's exactly my point. 

 

Shanahan was hired in April of 2014. The only important pieces that are currently on the roster from before that are Kadri, Reilly and Gardiner (who's most likely about to leave). Since then, they've added Nylander, Marner, Matthews, Kapanen, Anderson, Dermott and Tavares as "core" pieces. I'm really not sure how you could say that the majority of the core was given to them. What you're saying simply isn't true. 

 

If you don't want to include top-10 picks (even though that's how you build a core), they landed Gauthier (24th OA), Johnsson (7th round), Dermott (2nd round), Bracco (2nd round), Grundstrom (2nd round), Liljegren (17th overall), Woll (4th round), Sandin (29th overall), Durzi (2nd round). Off that list, Gauthier, Johnsson, Dermott and Grundstrom have played NHL games. Liljegren and Sandin are virtual locks to play at some point. Bracco was 2nd in AHL scoring this year as a 21 year old. Durzi was a piece in the deal that landed them Muzzin. They're drafting looks alright to me. 

 

To contrast, let's look at our drafting outside the first round in the last 5 years since that's what you're likely most familiar with. We landed McCann (24th overall), Demko (2nd round), Tryamkin (3rd round), Forsling (5th round), Brisebois (3rd round), Gaudette (5th round), Lind (2nd round), DiPietro (3rd round), Woo (2nd round) and Madden (3rd round). In other words, pretty much the exact same number of noteworthy players. If Toronto's drafting has been bad, then ours has as well, but I got a feeling that's not the case. 

 

And here's something you might find interesting. 

 

 

 

That line worked well defensively for 3 games even though Kadri is their matchup center, so I'm not sure why you're saying Tavares is doing all the work. Panarin has been on the ice in the final minute holding a lead in both Chicago and Columbus. I'm not saying they're a perfect team, but imagine if Benning brought us from being a  terrible, rebuilding team to contender with holes in 3 years. We'd all be over the moon. I get that it's fun to trash the Leafs and it's what everyone wants to do (including me), but don't let it get in the way of reality. I hope they lose this series against Boston. 

[oldnews]

7 minutes ago, Horvat is a Boss said:

 

They have been rebuilding for a decade or longer, but only got over the hump once they got good management. That's exactly my point. 

 

You mean the 'good management' that landed them a lottery win?  and otherwise, has drafted one roster asset despite all the stockpilez?

 

You're referring to Shanahan as management, when their General Manager is Kyle Dubas.   Shanahan doesn't make trades, doesn't draft players.

 

I think what they got was a good coach.  Their management has done little to impress - from the above point, to failing to significantly improve the blueline for quite some time, to furnishing their coach with a lack of depth / fourth line that sits on the bench in key situations - when they're allegedly a 'contender', even "Stanley Cup favorites" in their mind at the beginning of the season, because they struck oil again signing a 1st overall to go with their lottery win....

Sorry, I don't share the Leafs 'good management' koolaid - I think they've given Babcock the task of putting lip stick on it for a few years running.

Edited April 18, 2019 by oldnews

[Noble 6]

1 minute ago, oldnews said:

You mean the 'good management' that landed them a lottery win?  and otherwise, has drafted one roster asset despite all the stockpilez?

 

I think what they got was a good coach.  Their management has done little to impress - from the above point, to failing to significantly improve the blueline for quite some time, to furnishing their coach with a lack of depth / fourth line that sits on the bench in key situations - when they're allegedly a 'contender', even "Stanley Cup favorites" in their mind at the beginning of the season, because they struck oil again signing a 1st overall to go with their lottery win....

Sorry, I don't share the Leafs 'good management' koolaid - I think they've given Babcock the task of putting lip stick on it for a few years running.

 

Did you just cut out the part of my post that refuted pretty much all of what you said? All the core players the Leafs have added since Shanahan took over? 

 

Could you address that please?

[oldnews]

Just now, Horvat is a Boss said:

 

Did you just cut out the part of my post that refuted pretty much all of what you said? All the core players the Leafs have added since Shanahan took over? 

 

Could you address that please?

First of all, you're confusing Shanahan for a General Manager.  Dubas is their GM.   Shanahan drafts no one, trades for no one - and what people typically refer to as "the rebuild" is the tank job they did to acquire Matthews and the "stockpile tha pickz" thing - that has yielded, as pointed out, one roster player aside from Matthews in Dubas' tenure, and nothing outside the top 10 for quite some time. 

If you want to go back to players like Gauthier,( or Morgan Reilly), or Johnsson -  then you're really stretching the boundaries  to the point of meaninglessness - if guys drafted during Brain Burke's tenure, or players drafted in 2013,  that essentially makes my point - that the present "rebuild" started well before the current management groups, and even the current President. 

 

 

[oldnews]

2 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

We won a lottery too, the 2017 lottery.  Only the most stubborn homers can make stockpiling draft picks sound like a bad idea.

Cool story. 

[IBatch]

34 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Kapanen plays on Matthews' wing, Hyman on Tavares.

I was talking about depth - the fact that Babcock can't and won't rely on his fourth line, for example, in key situations.

Picking a couple responsible, two way wingers out of their top 6 isn't really a response to the point I was making.  Yeah - I like Kapanen - but that's beside the point.

For sure they do but Hyman, Kapanen and Johnsson offer depth as they are all guys that can move up and down the lineup and plug away.  Hyman played with Mathews last year, he’s a plug that gets the puck off the boards and goes to the front of the net (a little Hornqvist in him) not really a high end player, Kapanen is just getting started and a bit unknown but looks to have the chops to keep up well enough to contribute in the top six.   Johnsson has shades of St. Louis and could end up a top line player himself in time.  All of these guys aren’t big names but do speak to the depth of TOs top nine.  Their fourth line is meh at best so I do get what young coming from...Nylander, Kadri and one of the aftementioned guys speaks to their actual depth though, their top nine is as about as impressive as it gets, enviable depth IMO.

[IBatch]

35 minutes ago, VIC_CITY said:

I don't like that our home games start early when the Leafs are in town and I wish Canadian media wasn't so TO biased, but I have a hard time finding anything to dislike about the actual team. They're a young, offensive and exciting team that just so happens to be based out of Toronto. Personally, I'd rather see TO win a cup than conference rivals like Edmonton and Calgary. I think I'm in the minority though for some reason.

I’d rather TO win than any US team anytime.  We are all Canadian right?

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

For sure they do but Hyman, Kapanen and Johnsson offer depth as they are all guys that can move up and down the lineup and plug away.  Hyman played with Mathews last year, he’s a plug that gets the puck off the boards and goes to the front of the net (a little Hornqvist in him) not really a high end player, Kapanen is just getting started and a bit unknown but looks to have the chops to keep up well enough to contribute in the top six.   Johnsson has shades of St. Louis and could end up a top line player himself in time.  All of these guys aren’t big names but do speak to the depth of TOs top nine.  Their fourth line is meh at best so I do get what young coming from...Nylander, Kadri and one of the aftementioned guys speaks to their actual depth though, their top nine is as about as impressive as it gets, enviable depth IMO.

When you're referring to top 6 forwards as "depth" - the word doesn't have the typical hockey meaning of depth.

Johnnson was drafted in 2013 - for the purposes of the discussion, I don't consider Johnsson a depth asset added by a recent management group - even Lou Lamourello was hired after the 2013 draft - we're going back three management groups here to congratulate the Leafs for their deep build.

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

When you're referring to top 6 forwards as "depth" - the word doesn't have the typical hockey meaning of depth.

Johnnson was drafted in 2013 - for the purposes of the discussion, I don't consider Johnsson a depth asset added by a recent management group - even Lou Lamourello was hired after the 2013 draft - we're going back three management groups here to congratulate the Leafs for their deep build.

Absolutely.  I’m not debating who got who when, only that they have some very promising players outside the bigger names that play key roles on the team.  Having a bad fourth line used to not mean anything other then they got beat up more then they won fights.   Their top nine is as good as any team or better with the exception of maybe TB.  That’s their strength.  Used to be the fourth line played five minutes a game,   now it’s 10-12.  Does it really matter that much if those seven minutes are divided into the top three lines?  Or roll with that you have?   Is there fourth line any worse than ours?  Those guys (aforementioned) aren’t stars but secondary players I think your nit picking saying they don’t have depth on the fourth line, they have one to the best forward lineups in the league. 

 

As far as rebuilding goes a case can be made for them to be doing that since Gilmour left.  How many series have they won since?  

[oldnews]

Let me make the point simpler/clearer.

 

The Leafs have been drafting in the top 10 - for a decade.

Since 2008.... Schenn...Kadri....Reilly.....Nylander.....Marner....Matthews.

Three management groups.

Nevertheless they managed to tank for Matthews.

 

If Benning were fired tomorrow, the team tanks next year and wins the lottery.....did the 'rebuild' just begin with the next General Manager?

I don't think so.

Would the next guy be a 'genius' based on a lottery win alone?

 

[oldnews]

14 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Absolutely.  I’m not debating who got who when, only that they have some very promising players outside the bigger names that play key roles on the team.  Having a bad fourth line used to not mean anything other then they got beat up more then they won fights.   Their top nine is as good as any team or better with the exception of maybe TB.  That’s their strength.  Used to be the fourth line played five minutes a game,   now it’s 10-12.  Does it really matter that much if those seven minutes are divided into the top three lines?  Or roll with that you have?   Is there fourth line any worse than ours?  Those guys (aforementioned) aren’t stars but secondary players I think your nit picking saying they don’t have depth on the fourth line, they have one to the best forward lineups in the league. 

 

As far as rebuilding goes a case can be made for them to be doing that since Gilmour left.  How many series have they won since?  

Like I said elsewhere - yeah, it does - if your 1C is taking repeat dzone draw after dzone draw in the last four minutes of games, with Marner throwing himself in front of point blasts trying to preserve a one goal lead in the first round of the playoffs.    Having one of the best top 6 in the league is precisely when you built out the rest of your depth in order to contend.  As they're doing it, they're risking their stars, taxing their stars - at the start of a playoff grind - as a result of lacking the depth role players to utilize in those situations.

Edited April 19, 2019 by oldnews

[Noble 6]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

First of all, you're confusing Shanahan for a General Manager.  Dubas is their GM.   Shanahan drafts no one, trades for no one - and what people typically refer to as "the rebuild" is the tank job they did to acquire Matthews and the "stockpile tha pickz" thing - that has yielded, as pointed out, one roster player aside from Matthews in Dubas' tenure, and nothing outside the top 10 for quite some time. 

If you want to go back to players like Gauthier,( or Morgan Reilly), or Johnsson -  then you're really stretching the boundaries  to the point of meaninglessness - if guys drafted during Brain Burke's tenure, or players drafted in 2013,  that essentially makes my point - that the present "rebuild" started well before the current management groups, and even the current President. 

 

 

 

First off, you referred to the "Shana-Plan" first. I simply used that as the timeline for what you were talking about since the "Shana-Plan" started when he took control obviously. 

 

Second, you said that they don't have one player on their current roster who wasn't a top 10 pick or named Dermott drafted in the last 5 years. You're just plain wrong. I proved that wrong easily looking at the last 5 drafts since that's the timeline you laid down. You said last 5 years, not me. 

 

You said that that most core players in the current lineup were provided for them already when they took over and I proved that wrong again. 

 

You're just repeating the same thing again even though I already proved you wrong. 

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

6 hours ago, VIC_CITY said:

Yup. People up here acting like LE is a selke nominee. Not surprising, it's the pro Sutter/Gudbranson crowd leading the charge.

Yeah they really like to defend him for some reason not sure why just a waste of time in the end really, pretty much the same as the Gudbranson one, but I guess they get a kick out of it or something.