[Trade] Maple Leafs trade Travis Dermott to Canucks for 2022 3rd-round pick

[Gawdzukes]

28 minutes ago, Alflives said:

If not for the continued foolish Aquilini (imposed upon our management) philosophy of trading futures for older, stalled players in hopes to speed up the process of rebuilding/retooling, we wouldn’t have a Travis Dermott thread.  

Nothing to see here Francesco we're just talking about J.T. Dermott.

 

[BigTramFan]

7 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

You gave some ideas

Even if you did that line up (at what cost) ?

How would it be possible to get rid of the 4 you mention (at what cost)?

Add the 4 players you mention and the pay increases for who we have now? (Your plan includes keeping Miller,Boeser,Bo)?

Here's how all of that could potentially be achieved for next season...but I'd also say this is not what I would do...just showing it can be done.

 

The cost of getting rid of Chiasson, Highmore, Petan and Poolman? Just don't resign the first 3 guys and waive Poolman, that will save you 1.125m on his cap hit. I'd personally keep Highmore, he is a good fit as 13th forward or on the 4th line (e.g. resign for $850k x 3).

 

How could we add Crouse, Paul, Deslauriers and a physical RHD? Trade Dickinson + 2022 1st to Arizona for Crouse. Sign UFAs Paul (3m x 4), Deslauriers (1.6m x 3) and Manson (5m x 5).

 

So trading that 2022 1st is the main cost. Is it worth it? Can we still afford to pay the rest of our guys?

 

I'd go a step further and look to trade: Myers to DAL for a 4th and then trade Garland to NJD for Severson. Although Garland is great, I feel we have forward depth and this improves our D further, and also addresses the fact that Myers and Schenn are aging and may not be on our roster in a couple of years. Manson + Severson bolsters our right side for the next 5 years.

 

This leaves next season's roster as below with 3.4m in cap space. Note that Poolman is in the minors (so if he was picked up on waivers, that would clear another 1.375m).

 

Also of note is that in 2023-24 we would have 33.2m in cap space with 4 forwards and 4 Dmen to sign, we could do the following with 33.2m in 2023-24 if we wanted to retain all our guys:

Miller 9.0 (he'd have to have another amazing season to get paid this)

Horvat 6.75

Boeser 6.25 (assuming he doesn't have a breakout season in 2022-23)

Hoglander 2.5

Severson 5.0

Dermott 1.5

Burroughs 1.0

Juulsen 1.0

 

Although the question is: is this team a cup contender?

 

[JM_]

11 hours ago, aGENT said:

Who's playing on that right side in 2 years when Schenn (1 more season) and Myers (2 more seasons) are gone? And realistically, as admirably as Schenn has played there. He does not belong in the regualar starting 6 on a cup contending team.

 

We're currently 2 years away from Poolman, Woo and Juulsen as our starting, right side D. Agree to disagree (vehemently) that is doesn't need remaking.

who are we drafting this summer? how's Woo progressing? who's a UFA in 2 years? 

[JM_]

11 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

agree to disagree (kind of) on that one (It's the worst I've ever seen in a long time) It's why I I want to poke my eyes out with a fork and then show the TV how to clear the puck 50 times every game. It's the whole reason we play poor 5v5 hockey, can't complete a series of passes, and toss the puck around like a hot potato in our own end for 50 minutes a game.

 

We do need to add a top 4 D. Myers is a complimentary #2 RDman. He's so immobile, add Schenn, and Hamonic/Poolman to that it's horrendous and and it makes us super easy to play against. In that sense if we replace two guys and make them quicker and higher IQ then Myers becomes a strength. But not the way it is now our RD adds nothing to the attack and gets locked in our own end. Not to mention both Schenn, and Myers are no longer in contract next year and the following year respectively. If having to replace 3 out of 3 dmen in short order doesn't require a remake I don't know what does.

 

Rathbone does seem way to small and defensively suspect given Hughes is already on that side. Remaking the right side with a great D might cover that too but you can only really hide one glaring deficiency or two at a time. I should say that Myers, Schenn, and even Poolman are all decent hockey players but you don't want more than one and not any as your #1 option at RD when the game is tight.

definitely don't poke your eyes out with a fork. Yes Myers has his issues, but its going to take two seasons to fix that d group. We need him for next year, and then he's likely quite movable next year once his bonus is paid. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

definitely don't poke your eyes out with a fork. Yes Myers has his issues, but its going to take two seasons to fix that d group. We need him for next year, and then he's likely quite movable next year once his bonus is paid. 

Or do we trade picks, young (ELC) players, prospects for more 25-28 year old D men like Dermott in hopes to speed up the two years?  

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Or do we trade picks, young (ELC) players, prospects for more 25-28 year old D men like Dermott in hopes to speed up the two years?  

I liked that move, we shed Hamonic's salary and brought back in a 6/7 dman on a cheap salary. How much more Hunt can you take? 

[Gawdzukes]

33 minutes ago, JM_ said:

definitely don't poke your eyes out with a fork. Yes Myers has his issues, but its going to take two seasons to fix that d group. We need him for next year, and then he's likely quite movable next year once his bonus is paid. 

Ha ha yes sorry that was crudely stated with much exaggeration. I did really admire Myers in our playoffs ... great tough nastiness but too many costly penalties as well. Like I said he's not bad as long as he's not your quickest and best puck handler as well. As it stands that right side just feeds the opposition the puck all game long. No wonder OEL looks so bad to people. It would be nice to have players that can do things like 1-2 passing, supporting the rush, getting in the play, shooting the puck, and threatening/stretching the opposition out.

 

Yes it will definitely take a couple years unless we make some trades to fill that position. I definitely think they will have to bring in at least one RD in short order. Manson would be great if we can dump some cap. I think they'd be embarrassed to roll out the same configuration for an entire season.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Gawdzukes

[Gawdzukes]

10 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Here's how all of that could potentially be achieved for next season...but I'd also say this is not what I would do...just showing it can be done.

 

The cost of getting rid of Chiasson, Highmore, Petan and Poolman? Just don't resign the first 3 guys and waive Poolman, that will save you 1.125m on his cap hit. I'd personally keep Highmore, he is a good fit as 13th forward or on the 4th line (e.g. resign for $850k x 3).

 

How could we add Crouse, Paul, Deslauriers and a physical RHD? Trade Dickinson + 2022 1st to Arizona for Crouse. Sign UFAs Paul (3m x 4), Deslauriers (1.6m x 3) and Manson (5m x 5).

 

So trading that 2022 1st is the main cost. Is it worth it? Can we still afford to pay the rest of our guys?

 

I'd go a step further and look to trade: Myers to DAL for a 4th and then trade Garland to NJD for Severson. Although Garland is great, I feel we have forward depth and this improves our D further, and also addresses the fact that Myers and Schenn are aging and may not be on our roster in a couple of years. Manson + Severson bolsters our right side for the next 5 years.

 

This leaves next season's roster as below with 3.4m in cap space. Note that Poolman is in the minors (so if he was picked up on waivers, that would clear another 1.375m).

 

Also of note is that in 2023-24 we would have 33.2m in cap space with 4 forwards and 4 Dmen to sign, we could do the following with 33.2m in 2023-24 if we wanted to retain all our guys:

Miller 9.0 (he'd have to have another amazing season to get paid this)

Horvat 6.75

Boeser 6.25 (assuming he doesn't have a breakout season in 2022-23)

Hoglander 2.5

Severson 5.0

Dermott 1.5

Burroughs 1.0

Juulsen 1.0

 

Although the question is: is this team a cup contender?

 

Thank you I was going to do this manually with 1980 methods. You are very good at these roster types of things! The D looks great but those forwards are pretty ugly. It's hard to tell which is the top and which is the bottom 6 lol. Looks like a Jim Benning special. Enough supporting forwards to build 8 teams but missing the main ingredients. Definitely don't want to give AZ another first.

 

LW ... ouch.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Gawdzukes

[aGENT]

44 minutes ago, JM_ said:

who are we drafting this summer? how's Woo progressing? who's a UFA in 2 years? 

Any D we draft this this year is highly unlikely to be ready for top 4, let alone top pair minutes in two years.

 

I already included Woo (Poolman, Juulsen and Woo)

 

Your plan is to cross your fingers and hope for an over priced UFA (or two!) in a couple years to one, be available two,  want to come here and three, have the cap space for while paying now 31 year old Miller $9m+.

 

All while still having an at best, highly mediocre right side for the next two years...

 

Again, agree to vehemently disagree. That's a $&!#e plan. Sorry.

[JM_]

Just now, aGENT said:

Any D we draft this this year is highly unlikely to be ready for top 4, let alone top pair minutes in two years.

 

I already included Woo (Poolman, Juulsen and Woo)

 

Your plan is to cross your fingers and hope for an over priced UFA (or two!) in a couple years to one, be available two,  want to come here and three, have the cap space for while paying now 31 year old Miller $9m+.

 

All while still having an at best, highly mediocre right side for the next two years...

 

Again, agree to vehemently disagree. That's a $&!#e plan. Sorry.

So is the Miller for magic beans plan. No one is going to give us their best prospects in a flat-ish cap environment. 

 

Every trade for a Miller for a RHD at the moment is pure speculation. We've already passed one TDL with it not happening. 

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, JM_ said:

So is the Miller for magic beans plan. No one is going to give us their best prospects in a flat-ish cap environment. 

 

Every trade for a Miller for a RHD at the moment is pure speculation. We've already passed one TDL with it not happening. 

Best? I mean that depends on the team. Teams like Boston or Pittsburgh might. Rangers, probably not. Thankfully their "second best" are as good or better than the Bruins/Penguins best prospects 

 

And you still don't get it do you? It's not about replacing Miller. It's about getting assets that you can use to fill other holes, either directly, or as trade assets, while not committing top cap space to a depreciating asset. It's not remotely about "magic beans". Most of the "trade Miller" faction don't think the trade assets are likely to be organizational "saviors", despite your side constantly straw-manning it. It's about setting the team up to be successful in the future and having the cap space to be able to make moves like the one we made to get Miller, when it's time to do so. Adding depth to our youth so there's a succession plan without having to resort to the whims of overpriced UFA's.

 

And again, in that plan, you still have $9m of cap space even if literally none of those assets amount to anything. Like not even one 4th line grinder (which is far, FAR less likely to happen than Miller regressing).

 

Pure speculation... No, we've had reports of players the Canucks are interested in, suggestions of who teams made available etc. We also have frame works of similar past trades to refer to. So no, it's not just pure speculation. And even if it was, welcome to a discussion board. And yes, obviously nobody was willing to overpay for Miller at the TDL. And? We've already gotten reports of "groundwork being laid"... I'm guessing there's already a framework of " here's what we'll pay in the summer" on numerous guys, Miller included.

[Gawdzukes]

48 minutes ago, JM_ said:

So is the Miller for magic beans plan. No one is going to give us their best prospects in a flat-ish cap environment. 

 

Every trade for a Miller for a RHD at the moment is pure speculation. We've already passed one TDL with it not happening. 

You don't think Miller can be traded for a RD. Why on earth not? It's not magic beans that's young players or draft picks ... how 90% of hockey teams are built. I'm not sure I understand this argument.

 

Are you suggesting we just quit trying to find any right D anymore or we can only sign dmen as free agents? I'm confused.  Nothing new though.  lol I guess we're committed to watching Miller fly around the ice for 8 years. Hmmm, maybe we can move him back to D in the last 4 years of his contract. BOOM! Succession plan. Nice. He'd actually have all the tools if he even remotely cared about keeping the puck out of his own net.

[JM_]

7 hours ago, aGENT said:

Best? I mean that depends on the team. Teams like Boston or Pittsburgh might. Rangers, probably not. Thankfully their "second best" are as good or better than the Bruins/Penguins best prospects 

 

And you still don't get it do you? It's not about replacing Miller. It's about getting assets that you can use to fill other holes, either directly, or as trade assets, while not committing top cap space to a depreciating asset. It's not remotely about "magic beans". Most of the "trade Miller" faction don't think the trade assets are likely to be organizational "saviors", despite your side constantly straw-manning it. It's about setting the team up to be successful in the future and having the cap space to be able to make moves like the one we made to get Miller, when it's time to do so. Adding depth to our youth so there's a succession plan without having to resort to the whims of overpriced UFA's.

 

And again, in that plan, you still have $9m of cap space even if literally none of those assets amount to anything. Like not even one 4th line grinder (which is far, FAR less likely to happen than Miller regressing).

 

Pure speculation... No, we've had reports of players the Canucks are interested in, suggestions of who teams made available etc. We also have frame works of similar past trades to refer to. So no, it's not just pure speculation. And even if it was, welcome to a discussion board. And yes, obviously nobody was willing to overpay for Miller at the TDL. And? We've already gotten reports of "groundwork being laid"... I'm guessing there's already a framework of " here's what we'll pay in the summer" on numerous guys, Miller included.

there's no "sides"  we both want to see the team improve. I think where we differ is on the percentage chance of certain moves happening or not. 

 

I just don't think we're going to see anything like the returns being speculated on this TDL.

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by JM_

[JM_]

6 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

You don't think Miller can be traded for a RD. Why on earth not? It's not magic beans that's young players or draft picks ... how 90% of hockey teams are built. I'm not sure I understand this argument.

most teams get their top d though the draft, unless of you're Calgary and trade away Fox  

 

6 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

Are you suggesting we just quit trying to find any right D anymore or we can only sign dmen as free agents? I'm confused.  Nothing new though.  lol I guess we're committed to watching Miller fly around the ice for 8 years. Hmmm, maybe we can move him back to D in the last 4 years of his contract. BOOM! Succession plan. Nice. He'd actually have all the tools if he even remotely cared about keeping the puck out of his own net.

of course you don't quit, I just think we're going to have to draft a top pair RHD. 

[aGENT]

15 minutes ago, JM_ said:

there's no "sides"  we both want to see the team improve. I think where we differ is on the percentage chance of certain moves happening or not. 

 

I just don't think we're going to see anything like the returns being speculated on this TDL.

 

Which returns? The unrealistic ones? Nope. 

 

Still doesn't mean it's not the smarter, long term play.

[BC_Hawk]

On 4/4/2022 at 12:38 PM, JM_ said:

I don't think we need to remake the right side, just add one more top 4 to it. OEL-Myers has actually been pretty good. Hughes-Schenn works. Who do we pair with Rathbone? thats the need. 

I agree JM; we need to find one more Top 4 Defensive RHD for 2022/23. Myers contract is terrible, but he is serviceable in a top 4 role. In addition, the re-emergence of Schenn allows us to push off having to find another RHD to play with Hughes and saves us cap. We NEED to get rid of Poolman though. What I'd like to see:

 

2022/2023

OEL-Myers

Hughes-Schenn

Rathbone/Burroughs- Top 4 FA RHD (5m ish)

Dermott

 

Changes: Schenn retires or reups for depth/ Myers is moved at TDL to free up cap; 

 

2023/2024

OEL- Top 4 FA RHD from 2022

Hughes- Woo/Dermott/???

Rathbone/Burroughs- 4-4.5m Defensive RHD

 

Two solid D groups that fall roughly within the same salary structure. Once again, the key is to get out of that poolman contract.....maybe even a buyout

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by BC_Hawk

[Gawdzukes]

35 minutes ago, JM_ said:

most teams get their top d though the draft, unless of you're Calgary and trade away Fox  

 

of course you don't quit, I just think we're going to have to draft a top pair RHD. 

Ha ha Calgary. Will definitely be cheering against them in the playoffs.

 

Fair enough but we'd better get a move on and get some guys drafted there. The way I see it if you trade Miller (or Bo or Garland) you target a RD even if it turns out to be a Lundqvist who still has the outside potential to be a "#1 RD" or at least a very solid guy you can pencil into the puzzle of our defence. Then you double down on that and actually start drafting some RD (which we haven't done for some reason), especially a first and second rounder or two, hopefully at this draft. One of which could also be from a Miller trade.

 

We're lucky in the sense that a good RD partner for Hughes can be found via trade or free agency without paying an arm and a leg. If we can then throw some options into producing young talent from within that is cost controlled it will go a long way to making our defensive future flexible and formidable. The thing is at this point we have zero prospects except Woo so trading is the only way possible to get one going now!

 

 

[JM_]

48 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Which returns? The unrealistic ones? Nope. 

 

Still doesn't mean it's not the smarter, long term play.

imo if you move Miller now, you're risking losing Bo as well. He's given his entire career to multiple re-tool promises here and, if I were him, I wouldn't be happy about hearing to wait 2-3 years for another one to mature. I'd be asking to be moved, or just walk as a UFA. He's in his prime now, why the heck would he wait until his 30s? 

 

Thats one of the risks I see with the 2-3 year step back to get better idea. 

[JM_]

17 minutes ago, BC_Hawk said:

I agree JM; we need to find one more Top 4 Defensive RHD for 2022/23. Myers contract is terrible, but he is serviceable in a top 4 role. In addition, the re-emergence of Schenn allows us to push off having to find another RHD to play with Hughes and saves us cap. We NEED to get rid of Poolman though. What I'd like to see:

 

2022/2023

OEL-Myers

Hughes-Schenn

Rathbone/Burroughs- Top 4 FA RHD (5m ish)

Dermott

 

Changes: Schenn retires or reups for depth/ Myers is moved at TDL to free up cap; 

 

2023/2024

OEL- Top 4 FA RHD from 2022

Hughes- Woo/Dermott/???

Rathbone/Burroughs- 4-4.5m Defensive RHD

 

Two solid D groups that fall roughly within the same salary structure. Once again, the key is to get out of that poolman contract.....maybe even a buyout

 

with Poolmans migraine history it might be LTIR, unfortunately. 

[JM_]

6 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Ha ha Calgary. Will definitely be cheering against them in the playoffs.

 

Fair enough but we'd better get a move on and get some guys drafted there. The way I see it if you trade Miller (or Bo or Garland) you target a RD even if it turns out to be a Lundqvist who still has the outside potential to be a "#1 RD" or at least a very solid guy you can pencil into the puzzle of our defence. Then you double down on that and actually start drafting some RD (which we haven't done for some reason), especially a first and second rounder or two, hopefully at this draft. One of which could also be from a Miller trade.

 

We're lucky in the sense that a good RD partner for Hughes can be found via trade or free agency without paying an arm and a leg. If we can then throw some options into producing young talent from within that is cost controlled it will go a long way to making our defensive future flexible and formidable. The thing is at this point we have zero prospects except Woo so trading is the only way possible to get one going now!

 

 

Garland for Lundkvist, I'm 100% for that.