Dr. Crossbar Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 12 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said: The mental gymnastics that some are willing to commit to in order to view this move in a solely negative light is astounding. Kinda like ... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 25 minutes ago, chon derry said: You say you’ve watched hronek closely so my second question to you is how come you never added his positive attributes ? 1 The superior outlet pass’s that most journalists mention or 2 his ability to play big minutes or fail to mention his 3 hard shot? If you did watch him as closely as you say you would concur with these positive attributes even if you did see some down side to his game. But the fact that all you did was mention “he’ll be playing beyond his capability’s “ makes me think you just said it to substantiate a debate of a subject you weren’t entirely up on. The second question is my own quote above that you failed to answer ? Pretty telling when you can't acknowledge the many objective positives 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chon derry Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 Just now, canuck73_3 said: Pretty telling when you can't acknowledge the many objective positives I’ve made no secret of my stance on miller. Not once did I say he wasn’t good. The worlds full of dbags 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 9 minutes ago, EternalCanuckFan said: lol it's possible that OEL comes back as a serviceable NHL D but seems quite unlikely that he's going to come close to his former form. Still, if he signs cheap somewhere, he might still provide a lot of value to a NHL team in a bottom pairing role. Good for him if he wins a Cup with his new team. If that happens, then it will certainly cast a bit of a pall on the decision to buy him out. It's always a risk with buyouts. Sometimes buyouts are for players that really can't hash it out in the league anymore. Sometimes they're for players who are just badly overpaid. OEL was likely more the latter. Buying out OEL was the logical choice for the Canucks despite all the baggage it comes with. It was the only choice they had full control over, and it's the result of a bad trade that was not of their own doing. Sure we could say that they shouldn't have worked themselves into further cap hell by committing large cap hits to Miller, Mikheyev and Kuzmenko, but I also get that they are under direction to try and make the team competitive (whether or not I agree with that direction). Clearing cap space other than the buyout was presumably going to cost them assets which they can't give up either. If OEL finds good footing in the NHL again after this, then good for him, but I do think the team made the right decision. Giving up assets while continuing to compete over $7M in cap space to OEL in hopes of him at least being a serviceable bottom pairing Dman would be a worse look, IMHO. I don't disagree with anything you say at all. Good points all around. Even if OEL does somehow regain his form next season, or even wins a cup, it doesn't matter. The fact remains that we were handcuffed by that contract and we weren't getting value. Based on what we saw and experienced, I don't believe he would have regained his form here in Vancouver. At the very least, it was more likely that he wouldn't have here. Buying him out was the right thing to do for both parties. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 6 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said: Kinda like ... I was thinking more along the lines of this. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 48 minutes ago, Master Mind said: Not sure why cap it at 2015, but yes our draft record on defense is atrocious. Ideally we can turn that around one day. It doesn't need to be 1st rounders, the Slavins and Pesces of the world can be found in later rounds. But we need to keep our picks to land them. At some point you gotta start taking dmen in the 1st round, where the potential is much higher. You cant keep going BPA and hoping it will all sort itself out. The point I was making was if you arent going to select dmen in the 1st, your pick is as good as gone. Makes no difference if you keep drafting forwards, your back end will forever be neglected. JB at least had the foresight to go for a dman shortly after drafting some forwards to hopefully take over. He drafted more dmen in the 1st round than Gillis, Nonis and Burke combined. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 Just now, AnthonyG said: At some point you gotta start taking dmen in the 1st round, where the potential is much higher. You cant keep going BPA and hoping it will all sort itself out. The point I was making was if you arent going to select dmen in the 1st, your pick is as good as gone. Makes no difference if you keep drafting forwards, your back end will forever be neglected. JB at least had the foresight to go for a dman shortly after drafting some forwards to hopefully take over. He drafted more dmen in the 1st round than Gillis, Nonis and Burke combined. Juolevi was in the first round. Myers was too. So was Gudbranson. Weber was drafted 49th overall (second round) Keith was drafted 54th overall (second round) Chara was drafted 56th overall (third round) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastCoastNucks Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 On 6/19/2023 at 5:16 AM, EastCoastNucks said: I actually disagree with you, although I agree room is needed for others to play top pairing. but OEL was great with Bear, so maybe bottom pair? The only thing that was bad about OEL was his contract. He was just not worth the 8 MiL cap hit and the 10 Mil salary. But since we already paid the piper, would you agree we would be happy to add him at 900K per year for 4 years? playing with Schenn at 1.2 M? they will both be free agents this summer. Calgary did this a few years ago, bought out Stone and then hired him back at the senior discount! We should do this for OEL too, considering we are already committed to paying him for the next 8 years from the buyout! https://flamesnation.ca/news/amp/flames-re-sign-michael-stone-who-they-bought-out-last-month Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 15 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said: Juolevi was in the first round. Myers was too. So was Gudbranson. Weber was drafted 49th overall (second round) Keith was drafted 54th overall (second round) Chara was drafted 56th overall (third round) Patrick White was 1OA Rick DiPietro was 1OA Claude Gauthier was 1OA Whats your point? I could keep going if you’d like? You can cherry pick all you want, doesnt change the fact the 1st round is still the best round. 1st round or 2nd and 3rd round, whereare you more likely to find an impact player? I’d guess the 1st round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 1 hour ago, chon derry said: Let’s just say for hypothetical purposes. Question. What if the Horvat deal never happened? Answer. We wouldn’t have had the picks they traded to acquire hronek. How can you miss something you never had in the first place? The debate about the picks being The salvation of the team is wishful thinking. There’s a far better chance hronek regains his game. Than an unproven , and as of yet an undrafted player that even if he did workout DOES NOT FIT INTO THE CANUCKS WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY. If the Horvat trade never happens, then it's likely we let him walk for nothing, which is a huge waste. But they made the trade, one where they got a good return. They then poorly used those assets by overpaying for Hronek. So it undoes some of the good work they did with the Bo trade. I don't buy into this window of opportunity. There are no signs that point to us being a cup contender with this group in the near future. I have no interest in emulating the Minnesota Wild and being a perennial 1st round exit team. I'd rather they keep their picks, accumulate more picks, and draft some quality defense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, Master Mind said: If the Horvat trade never happens, then it's likely we let him walk for nothing, which is a huge waste. But they made the trade, one where they got a good return. They then poorly used those assets by overpaying for Hronek. So it undoes some of the good work they did with the Bo trade. I don't buy into this window of opportunity. There are no signs that point to us being a cup contender with this group in the near future. I have no interest in emulating the Minnesota Wild and being a perennial 1st round exit team. I'd rather they keep their picks, accumulate more picks, and draft some quality defense. So we traded a guy who was walking for a top 4, arguably top 2 defenseman, so quit crying about it already. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 1 hour ago, chon derry said: You say you’ve watched hronek closely so my second question to you is how come you never added his positive attributes ? 1 The superior outlet pass’s that most journalists mention or 2 his ability to play big minutes or fail to mention his 3 hard shot? If you did watch him as closely as you say you would concur with these positive attributes even if you did see some down side to his game. But the fact that all you did was mention “he’ll be playing beyond his capability’s “ makes me think you just said it to substantiate a debate of a subject you weren’t entirely up on. The second question is my own quote above that you failed to answer ? ? I said I think he's a #4 when on a contender. That doesn't mean he brings nothing of value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 Just now, canuck73_3 said: So we traded a guy who was walking for a top 4, arguably top 2 defenseman, so quit crying about it already. No, we traded Bo for other assets, then flipped them. Don't engage with me if you can't handle discussion. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 1 hour ago, IBatch said: I sure do pine for the late 80's and early 90's when Quin just made the best playoff team we've ever had. With a lot of cool trades. Times have changed. Cap is the be all and end all now. Shave a .500 million here, and 1 or 2 million there. I do wonder who the heck will be this years Schenn or Kuzmenko. And that wasn't enough. Cap has certainly limited trades, at least mid season interesting trades (that aren't trade deadline). However I enjoy the extra challenge it adds. Too bad many NHL GMs struggle so mightily with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 49 minutes ago, AnthonyG said: At some point you gotta start taking dmen in the 1st round, where the potential is much higher. You cant keep going BPA and hoping it will all sort itself out. The point I was making was if you arent going to select dmen in the 1st, your pick is as good as gone. Makes no difference if you keep drafting forwards, your back end will forever be neglected. JB at least had the foresight to go for a dman shortly after drafting some forwards to hopefully take over. He drafted more dmen in the 1st round than Gillis, Nonis and Burke combined. Pick is as good as gone? Look at the Hurricanes model. One of the best defenses in the league, and have a strong prospect pool. They got the pillars of that defense through mid picks. It's definitely possible to get franchise changing players beyond the 1st round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 1 minute ago, Master Mind said: Pick is as good as gone? Look at the Hurricanes model. One of the best defenses in the league, and have a strong prospect pool. They got the pillars of that defense through mid picks. It's definitely possible to get franchise changing players beyond the 1st round. Have they been to the Cup Final following this formula? But teams that build out their clubs through good trades and smart UFA signings do. The Canes are stuck in the middle. Not the right place to be if the goal is to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 13 minutes ago, Master Mind said: No, we traded Bo for other assets, then flipped them. Don't engage with me if you can't handle discussion. We still came out with Raty and Hronek, and you don't acquire top 2 potential defensemen without giving something up. And Hronek is far closer to a top 2 dman than magic beans. and I'm sorry that you can't handle that fact. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 8 minutes ago, Master Mind said: Pick is as good as gone? Look at the Hurricanes model. One of the best defenses in the league, and have a strong prospect pool. They got the pillars of that defense through mid picks. It's definitely possible to get franchise changing players beyond the 1st round. Canes haven't been to the finals since 2006 so they're not exactly a flawless formula either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyG Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Master Mind said: Pick is as good as gone? Look at the Hurricanes model. One of the best defenses in the league, and have a strong prospect pool. They got the pillars of that defense through mid picks. It's definitely possible to get franchise changing players beyond the 1st round. I never said it was impossible…. Its about giving yourself the best chance to draft a high end dman. and look how many top 15 selections have been a dman by Carolina. Edited June 20, 2023 by AnthonyG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 16 minutes ago, Master Mind said: No, we traded Bo for other assets, then flipped them. Don't engage with me if you can't handle discussion. It’s our Canuck’s home forum. Your opinions are contrary to us winning. It’s been pointed out repeatedly Hronek is a top pairing D and a number 1 on Detroit. The facts are he’s a great young right shot D who we stole from Yzerman. Your opinions about this trade and pkayer are 100% wrong. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now