Master Mind Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 40 minutes ago, StrayDog said: Pointing out when someone has done something wrong is how you get them to (hopefully) correct their behavior. If the players were not being homophobic to begin with, no one would have called them on it. It's no different than the amount of people (yourself included) who complain about management, coaches, refs, etc. Or do you also have the opinion that if too many people complain about a trade (for example) that the team might never make another trade for fear of backlash? The cancellation of jerseys is 100% on Bettman and the League, because they decided they did not wish to deal with any consequences of player actions. Some people are pointing it out, while others just want to slag on the player and/or try to prop themselves up. As I've said before, it's fine to criticize, but at some point it goes too far. People calling for Provorov to be deported (before and after he made a statement) is a prime example of this. It's a bit different, as the warmup jerseys are not integral to the league's functionality, while management, coaches, refs, are required. It's a bad look for the league to have all this backlash. It's better for business to remove the possibility of it continuing. The league wouldn't have to come to this decision if fans and media had a tamer, more reasonable reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 22 minutes ago, Master Mind said: Some people are pointing it out, while others just want to slag on the player and/or try to prop themselves up. As I've said before, it's fine to criticize, but at some point it goes too far. People calling for Provorov to be deported (before and after he made a statement) is a prime example of this. It's a bit different, as the warmup jerseys are not integral to the league's functionality, while management, coaches, refs, are required. It's a bad look for the league to have all this backlash. It's better for business to remove the possibility of it continuing. The league wouldn't have to come to this decision if fans and media had a tamer, more reasonable reaction. It really sounds like you are only blaming the pro-Pride camp for their reaction against the players and the league. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said: It really sounds like you are only blaming the pro-Pride camp for their reaction against the players and the league. As fans, we can't control the actions of the players. We can only control our reactions. Some chose to react in a way that directed a lot of hate towards the players. That decision comes with consequences, as we've seen here 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 15 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said: It really sounds like you are only blaming the pro-Pride camp for their reaction against the players and the league. This players absolved and shift blame. Odd group to white knight for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Master Mind said: As fans, we can't control the actions of the players. We can only control our reactions. Some chose to react in a way that directed a lot of hate towards the players. That decision comes with consequences, as we've seen here And it's not over. They could have made it worse. Now there is another back lash, one to the decision to ban the warm up jersey. There was no actual consequences to the players that refused right? Just court of public opinion. Teams/NHL should have stuck with what they thought was right. If it's a business decision, then imo I think they have now pissed off the majority of their buying public. Sometimes doing the right things is hard. But you do them because they are the right things to do. In time, hopefully those that have their non-inclusive beliefs put some thought into their reasoning. And/or the league, like many other orgs, puts what the players wear into their code of conduct. Then the players have their 'out' , they can simply say they didn't have a choice. I imagine that's what a vegan player would have to do if they play for the Millk sponsored Leafs. They don't get a choice. Edited June 25, 2023 by bishopshodan 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 37 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: And it's not over. They could have made it worse. Now there is another back lash, one to the decision to ban the warm up jersey. There was no actual consequences to the players that refused right? Just court of public opinion. Teams/NHL should have stuck with what they thought was right. If it's a business decision, then imo I think they have now pissed off the majority of their buying public. Sometimes doing the right things is hard. But you do them because they are the right things to do. In time, hopefully those that have their non-inclusive beliefs put some thought into their reasoning. And/or the league, like many other orgs, puts what the players wear into their code of conduct. Then the players have their 'out' , they can simply say they didn't have a choice. I imagine that's what a vegan player would have to do if they play for the Millk sponsored Leafs. They don't get a choice. No actual consequences to the players, but some people were calling for those. If things remained status quo, it opens the door to a player not participating, then making some very heinous comments after. Could see consequences in that case, but it's not good for the brand to leave that possibility open. Let's not pretend the league or any other major corporation cares about doing what's right. Not to mention how subjective that can be -- they care about making profits. I very much doubt they upset the majority of their consumer base. It might seem that way due to being online, and mostly seeing the opinions of those with strong feelings one way or the other. I imagine the vast majority don't have a strong opinion on it, not to the point where they'll stop watching. The league clearly believes that this decision is in their best interests. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Master Mind said: No actual consequences to the players, but some people were calling for those. If things remained status quo, it opens the door to a player not participating, then making some very heinous comments after. Could see consequences in that case, but it's not good for the brand to leave that possibility open. Let's not pretend the league or any other major corporation cares about doing what's right. Not to mention how subjective that can be -- they care about making profits. I very much doubt they upset the majority of their consumer base. It might seem that way due to being online, and mostly seeing the opinions of those with strong feelings one way or the other. I imagine the vast majority don't have a strong opinion on it, not to the point where they'll stop watching. The league clearly believes that this decision is in their best interests. I'm sure they do. I don't. We disagree on the idea that the majority don't really care. Especailly when you include all the other sweaters, besides the Pride one, that is now cancelled from players wearing them. The viewership is down for the NHL. This, and a few other issues make me think that trend will continue. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 10 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: I'm sure they do. I don't. We disagree on the idea that the majority don't really care. Especailly when you include all the other sweaters, besides the Pride one, that is now cancelled from players wearing them. The viewership is down for the NHL. This, and a few other issues make me think that trend will continue. I think viewership issues have more to do with how difficult the league makes it to watch the actual product. Then in the playoffs, the teams who went far are ones that most fans aren't interested in, and the series were too lopsided. I don't think warmup jerseys factor all too much into it. Especially when the themed nights will continue. But yes, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Master Mind said: As fans, we can't control the actions of the players. We can only control our reactions. Some chose to react in a way that directed a lot of hate towards the players. That decision comes with consequences, as we've seen here It... sounds like... you are only blaming... the pro-Pride camp... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 29 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said: It... sounds like... you are only blaming... the pro-Pride camp... It sounds like you're repeating yourself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Master Mind said: It sounds like you're repeating yourself. I feel you're missing my point. Why are you only blaming the PRO-pride camp for their part in this situation? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said: I feel you're missing my point. Why are you only blaming the PRO-pride camp for their part in this situation? 3 hours ago, Master Mind said: As fans, we can't control the actions of the players. We can only control our reactions. Some chose to react in a way that directed a lot of hate towards the players. That decision comes with consequences, as we've seen here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Okay. It seems like you think the ANTI-Pride crowd did nothing wrong, and only supporters of the movement reacted poorly to things online. I have seen far more anti-gay posts complaining about the league being too woke or politically correct. I have also read/listened to the statements made by more outspoken players like the Staals but especially Jim Reimer. Did you read the shit he said? Complete nonsense but typical from conservative Christian ideology. The players definitely took some heat for their decisions. And... so what? Are you suggesting they have the right to promote a society that continues to stigmatize the LGBTQ? That community has been treated like shit for centuries with absolutely zero consequences. Of all the things to object against the league, they picked this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said: Okay. It seems like you think the ANTI-Pride crowd did nothing wrong, and only supporters of the movement reacted poorly to things online. I have seen far more anti-gay posts complaining about the league being too woke or politically correct. I have also read/listened to the statements made by more outspoken players like the Staals but especially Jim Reimer. Did you read the shit he said? Complete nonsense but typical from conservative Christian ideology. The players definitely took some heat for their decisions. And... so what? Are you suggesting they have the right to promote a society that continues to stigmatize the LGBTQ? That community has been treated like shit for centuries with absolutely zero consequences. Of all the things to object against the league, they picked this. Stating the poor decisions by one does not mean the other made no poor decisions. That's quite the flawed logic you're using -- sadly I see that all too often. People have been complaining about the league being too woke/PC for years. Yet everything continued as normal. It wasn't until the backlash against the players went overboard that they felt they needed to change things. Fans refusal to accept accountability and/or consequences to their actions is unsurprising yet disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 50 minutes ago, Master Mind said: Stating the poor decisions by one does not mean the other made no poor decisions. That's quite the flawed logic you're using -- sadly I see that all too often. People have been complaining about the league being too woke/PC for years. Yet everything continued as normal. It wasn't until the backlash against the players went overboard that they felt they needed to change things. Fans refusal to accept accountability and/or consequences to their actions is unsurprising yet disappointing. Ok, but you still refuse to accept or acknowledge the homophobes part in this though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck You Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 It's not exactly pride if you're being forced to celebrate. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 9 minutes ago, Canuck You said: It's not exactly pride if you're being forced to celebrate. Please expand on what you mean. Who was being forced? I have mentioned a few times that there was no punishment for any players that refused to wear the sweaters in warm up. Or am I forgetting something? 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted June 26, 2023 Share Posted June 26, 2023 3 hours ago, Master Mind said: Stating the poor decisions by one does not mean the other made no poor decisions. That's quite the flawed logic you're using -- sadly I see that all too often. People have been complaining about the league being too woke/PC for years. Yet everything continued as normal. It wasn't until the backlash against the players went overboard that they felt they needed to change things. Fans refusal to accept accountability and/or consequences to their actions is unsurprising yet disappointing. So you think the Staals deserve absolutely none of the blame despite their open bigotry? If they had kept their mouths shut and pretended they were decent people, this could have been avoided too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 26, 2023 Share Posted June 26, 2023 12 minutes ago, King Heffy said: So you think the Staals deserve absolutely none of the blame despite their open bigotry? If they had kept their mouths shut and pretended they were decent people, this could have been avoided too. That's not what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RinkonRenfrew Posted June 26, 2023 Share Posted June 26, 2023 i get that buttman’s decision was to be as uncontroversial as possible. it’s a business. after the bud light/trans can fallout, who could blame him. his job is to maximize revenue. the nhl/hockey isn’t a moral leader. wish it was, but there is no evidence to support that it is anything but a trailing indicator of what is ‘okay’. it is too bad that north american society has a significant portion of people who can’t be accepting of people who aren’t the same in some way (from race to gender identity, sexual orientation and abortion stance). the push to grow revenue is on in conservative regions of the american south, so an especially delicate region for promoting rainbow jerseys. i get it. i strongly disagree with the decision, but would probably make the same one if i was tasked with running the league and maximizing revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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