Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo

?

Discussion

This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
1823 replies to this topic

#1021 HiFiclub

HiFiclub

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,371 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 08

Posted 04 August 2012 - 03:15 PM

My respect for you just went way up. B)

+1 for Miller as well
Posted Image

Canucks
Posted Image

#1022 WHL rocks

WHL rocks

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,615 posts
  • Joined: 09-May 10

Posted 04 August 2012 - 03:16 PM

My respect for you just went way up. B)


Yep, He's pbbly my favourite guy to have discussions with on here, honest smart and witty.

#1023 WHL rocks

WHL rocks

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,615 posts
  • Joined: 09-May 10

Posted 04 August 2012 - 03:19 PM

I thought winning a Stanley Cup was of most importance to him??


Nope, his family is most important to him, followed by his life style. The Stanley Cup is pbbly in the top 5 but not the most important.

#1024 riffraff

riffraff

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,051 posts
  • Joined: 10-April 07

Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:02 PM

Wrong, its a rhetorical question.


More hypothetical than rhetorical. In any case it gives away that you didn't watch that game, and are talking out of your ass.

Edited by riffraff, 04 August 2012 - 04:03 PM.

Posted Image


CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#1025 Jester13

Jester13

    Canucks Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,814 posts
  • Joined: 30-August 09

Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:16 PM

Yep, He's pbbly my favourite guy to have discussions with on here, honest smart and witty.


No offense to Miller, but holy crap his ego is getting stroked in this thread more than my d!c% on Sundays! Oh man, tomorrow is Sunday :bigblush:

"Education is the inoculator for ignorance."


#1026 Tearloch7

Tearloch7

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,698 posts
  • Joined: 15-July 10

Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:18 PM

You couldn't be more wrong on that one.
You should (re)watch the PHX vs NSH series.. Doan sticks up for his teammates with every ounce of his being. He plays a physical style without going over the edge and taking bad penalties or risking injury in fights best left for "tough guys" to take care of.
IMO hes a perfect fit for the sedins and has the leader ship to mentor our younger guys into being responsible with their aggression and so forth.


I am talking about his career .. you are talking about a short series where the Phx goalie stole a win to make Doana and the boys look "good" .. he does go over the edge and he IS a coward .. leaving fights for the "tough guys" says it all .. he is NOT tough .. but he will elbow you in the head when you are least suspecting .. yep, he'll do that .. so let's get him to teach Kassian how to be a cheap shot coward .. good thinking, Dave .. :towel:

"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

"Always tell the Truth. That way, you don’t have to remember what you said"  ~ Mark Twain ~
 


#1027 WHL rocks

WHL rocks

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,615 posts
  • Joined: 09-May 10

Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:23 PM

More hypothetical than rhetorical. In any case it gives away that you didn't watch that game, and are talking out of your ass.


LOL. My discussion with Miller is not about a game, not a series it's about the career and future 4 years of Doan"s playing ability.

I guess you did not understand what I was saying. Either you lack intelligence or you are being a db.

In any case, move along.

Edited by WHL rocks, 04 August 2012 - 04:32 PM.


#1028 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,509 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:43 PM

You posted a video of the Doan vs brown fight from Feb 16 2012. I've seen that fight and it was hardly a fillng in, True it was because of a cheap shot. But I wouldn't call it "filling in Brown". A couple of punches and then to the ice.

Your stat of Doan having 20 fights from 95 to 00 proves my point doesn't it? Why the huge drop off in fights? I say because he's getting older and its showing already.

He averages about a fight a season for the past 3 years. I can't understand how/why he would be a deterrent for opposing players.

Still, he's a far better scrapper than Burrows... Besides, it doesn't always take 8-10 punches to give someone a concussion. One imperfect connection with the jaw is all it takes sometimes (not unlike Jamie Benn running into a glancing elbow from Doan in an earlier video in this thread) and the odds that Doan connects on a haymaker is 2-3x as likely as Burrows.

Like I said earlier, IMO its a mistake to overpay and give a 4 year term to Doan just so he can mentor Kassian . I agree he would help Kassian but at that price?

I like to drink wine, its good for the heart, puts me in a good mood, helps me enjoy my evening +++ but I don't spend an entire month's salary on one bottle of wine.

I don't expect him to be able to keep up for 4 more years. I don't think he's worth $6 or $7 million per year. Like I said, 2 years max, preferably at Kesler money. But that's not what happens on UFA. Everyone gets over paid.

I see, so you don't think he could produce exactly what Jason Arnott could do at 37 at the age of 38 in spite of being known as one of the highest conditioned atheletes in the league.

People said Gary Roberts was done after what was it, a broken neck, in '96 at age 30? The guy had ten years of success after that because he knew how to take care of himself both nutritionally and in terms of physical fitness. From age 36 to 40 he had 88g 98a 186pts in 282gp, good for a .66 pts/game production rate (aka 54pts per 82gp) on top of averaging well over a hit per game (NHL.com has sporadic RTSS for those years) and 11 fights, including three fights at the age of 40. Interestingly enough he also had several years of "only" 1 fight per season and yet he was still a feared powerforward even at that age...

The only knock on Roberts was the ability to stay healthy but that problem started way before age 35 and the ability to stay healthy and play a full season has never been an issue for Doan.

Why do I think MG wants Doan so bad? I don't know he does. How do you know he wants him that bad? Has he offered him 4 years @ $6 or $7 mill? I'm not privy to what MG thinks and how long he's willing to sign Doan for.

For all I know MG has only offered a 2 year contract at Ryan Kesler money. I'm having a discussion about Doan with other hockey fans on hockey forums who think its a great idea to sign an ageing player to 4 years. I'm saying Doan will be almost 40 years old in 4 years. I'm saying he will not be worth that type of salary or cap hit in years 3 and 4. I'm not attempting to read MG's mind.


Are you honestly suggesting that the well publicized reports of there being "significant mutual interest", that both sides have voiced, are inaccurate? There was reportedly an offer submitted to Doan weeks ago and it was quality enough for Doan to meet with Canucks brass in person just a few days ago. Now you're just in denial if you don't think Gillis & Gillman really want this player since typically GMs who aren't seriously interested in signing a certain player don't end up sitting down with them in person after submitting a formal offer. You take the 4-year/$30m as gospel but don't accept the reports of significant interest. Odd.

I can however take into account MG's previous statements on giving a 35+ player a long term contract. MG is smart enough to know Doan won't be the same player in 3 years from now when he's 38 years old. MG himself has gone on record to say these are risky contracts.

So if that's the case, and Doan will only sign a 4-year offer, why is Doan showing up in Vancouver for a follow-up meeting? Either Gillis has tabled a 3-4 year offer or Doan is still interested in signing in Vancouver even if it's only a 2-year deal.

Who knows how this will play out. If it is a 4 year contract maybe they will structure the contract where Doan gets most of his money in the first 2 years and pay him close to league min for the last 2 years. When he is no longer worth the cap hit, his rights could be traded to a cap floor team and he could retire. The cap floor team could count his salary against the cap but not have to pay him the $1 million or so he would be owed. Everyone wins.


Yeah, but the current CBA (under which this contract would be signed) states that you can't be earning less than 50% of your salary from the previous year so the best that a 4-year/$24m deal could look like would be $10m, $8m, $4m, $2m or $12m, $6.75m, $3.5m, $1.75m.

Incidentally, Kassian has two years left on his ELC so another one to two year deal to prove himself after that puts himself in a perfection situation to pick up the offensive slack left over from Doan's "expected" decline and earn himself Doan's cap hit once Doan hits free agency or is traded after year three to retire .

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#1029 Boudrias

Boudrias

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,165 posts
  • Joined: 14-January 04

Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:54 PM

You never know, he might of changed his mind at the last minute. If I was Doan I would pick Vancouver though.

According to Jesse Spector of the Sporting News, he does have the option to sign a 1 year deal:


Shane Doan became a free agent on July 1. He determined that he would not make a decision on whether to leave the Phoenix Coyotes until July 9. When that came and went, Doan's new deadline for a decision was July 16. Then it was July 27, with Doan saying he wanted to make a decision quickly so that he could get his family settled for his kids to start the school year.


Here it is, August, and Doan still is a man without a contract. If he really wanted to leave the Coyotes, he would have done so by now. It is clear that the 35-year-old winger wants to stay in Phoenix, where he has played ever since the Coyotes moved from Winnipeg. So, why doesn't he?


Doan wants a multiyear deal, reportedly in the range of four years and $30 million. There's little doubt that he would be able to get it. But if he does not want to leave Phoenix, he has an option, even with the future of the Coyotes in doubt: sign a one-year contract.


Even if the sale of the Coyotes to Greg Jamison falls through, there is no way that the NHL would be able to relocate the franchise on such short notice, especially with everything else on the league's plate. If Doan wants to stay in Phoenix, and his continued extension of deadlines is a clear indication of his desires, then he should do what he wants. Nobody is stopping him. Give it another go with Mike Smith, Keith Yandle and Oliver Ekman-Larsson. If Doan wants to play for a contender, a team that just went to the Western Conference finals isn't a bad choice.


Would it be a gamble for Doan to leave money on the table now? He'd run the risk of injury, but it isn't as if he'd be hurt by CBA changes—at 36 next summer, Doan would qualify for unrestricted free agency even by the league's proposed 10-year standard, and it's not as if he would be looking for a decade-long deal.


There also is the chance that Doan could make more money by signing a one-year deal now, then going for a three or four-year deal next summer, with the Coyotes or otherwise. If Alex Semin can get $7 million from the Hurricanes on a one-year deal, why can't Doan get $8 million from Phoenix, especially considering that the Coyotes need to spend about that much to reach the (current CBA's) salary floor?


Doan made $22.75 million over the past five years with the Coyotes. Shouldn't that give him the security to make a decision that will make him happy?


http://aol.sportingn...urgh-penguins-1


The longer Doan does not sign with PHX the less likely he does so IMO. As you suggest a 1 year deal has always been an option and he hasn't taken it. The length of deal and the security of knowing that an ownership is in place that secures the duration of that contract has to be paramount for Doan. At some point he has to realize that security will not be there. Not only is Jamieson short on investors but a clear plan on how he will finance the on going losses is murky. Add to that the incoming City council is on record to being hostile to the arena deal.

I still feal that Doan annouces his Van signing in the coming week.

#1030 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,509 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:54 PM

No offense to Miller, but holy crap his ego is getting stroked in this thread more than my d!c% on Sundays! Oh man, tomorrow is Sunday :bigblush:


Yeah, it's getting a little weird tbh, lol. I appreciate the fact people enjoy discussing topics in detail with me, since I also enjoy exchanging viewpoints with them, but I could certainly do without the electronic pats on the back (no offence guys).

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#1031 shadowgoon

shadowgoon

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 698 posts
  • Joined: 03-January 10

Posted 04 August 2012 - 05:06 PM

I don't buy this idea that the league could turn around and drop the salary cap by 13-20 million - it makes absolutely no sense, and would force a restructuring of half the teams in the NHL, a wave of salary dumping, and a complete disruption to the most powerful teams in the NHL - Boston, New York, LA, Vancouver, etc would all be seriously undermined, and their talent thinned out - not to mention that the behaviour of teams on the UFA market have clearly indicated that no one anticipates this happening - if I were betting, I'd put my money on not going to happen.


For the 2005-2006 season, player salaries league wide totaled just north of $1 billion at $1,024,006,867 vs revenues just south of 1.8 billion. That's a 56.89% share.

For the 2011-2012 season that just passed, league revenues were a reported $3.1 billion, with league wide salaries being reported as $1,765,884,994, roughly 56.96%.

That's only a 0.07% increase in 7 years, but that 0.07% increase has resulted in an average pay bump of just over a million bucks per player. I know I'm completely over generalizing the situation, but that just gives an overview of what they're dealing with. Salary spending has remained constant, it's just a much bigger pie they're now consuming.

If you look at those numbers, it's apparent that the club owners are not benefiting from the situation and why shouldn't they? They're the ones investing their money to run an organization. It's not just player salaries they have to pay, there are arena leases, organizational salaries, travel, accommodations, meals, medical services, and let's not forget at the end of the day this is a business; as such they need to be able to run a profit at the end of the year otherwise what's the point?

The owners SHOULD be taking in the majority of the revenues, players should cease to be so greedy. On top of their ridiculous salaries, EVERYTHING club related is paid for, not to mention a lot of players receive endorsement deals. If these owners did not invest the money that they are, the players wouldn't have a league to play in.

I know the chicken and the egg argument can be an endless tug of war of logic, but it has to start somewhere. Without the owners, there are no teams. Without teams there is no league, in the end all you would really have are groupings of regional bush leagues and no elite level talent.

Everything exists because there is an ultimate goal; make the NHL and play in the best league in the world. It's why the grass root movement happened, it's why there are elite junior and college level development leagues, it's why there is a professional league a tier below the NHL.

My point to all of this, is if the players share of revenues (from which the cap floor and ceiling are derived) is reduced, player salaries will be equally reduced so that current salaries are in line with the cap. Moving forward the poster to whom you responded was correct, the cap will increase at a much less torrid pace.

The players should be mindful that they are part of an elite percentage of the population, being paid to play a sport and have the luxury of retiring before they are 40.

Before you say "well they take an incredible amount of punishment during their short lived careers" I will say this, with the advancement of physical fitness, training, awareness and medical technology, players bodies are in way better shape now than they ever were.

When their playing careers end, they don't simply stop working they continue on. They still make money, whether that be from investments, taking advantage of their education, business ownership etc.

Edit* Holy crap, I didn't mean to go on a rant, but I just don't see how the players can claim (I'm not sure that it's been publicly expressed, but certainly the sentiment is there) that they feel they don't need to leave a lot of money on the table this go around.

Edited by Shadowgoon, 04 August 2012 - 05:13 PM.


#1032 ccc44

ccc44

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,423 posts
  • Joined: 29-April 09

Posted 04 August 2012 - 08:46 PM

Meh, I don't buy it. When Doan's family would ostensibly see Doan end his career in BC, along with the whole Gilman side of things, I assume this article is the SJ guy just trying to get some readers. I guess any news is still better than no news :)

What if Doans family really enjoys the year round sunny weather like they have being in Phoenix and im sure Laurence Gilman working in Phoenix at one time is not going to sway his decision ,how much time do you think assistant GMs spend with players ?
Posted Image
SHOTS ! SHOTS ! SHOTS !

#1033 LiveforCanucksHockey

LiveforCanucksHockey

    Comets Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 237 posts
  • Joined: 28-June 08

Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:35 PM

For the 2005-2006 season, player salaries league wide totaled just north of $1 billion at $1,024,006,867 vs revenues just south of 1.8 billion. That's a 56.89% share.

For the 2011-2012 season that just passed, league revenues were a reported $3.1 billion, with league wide salaries being reported as $1,765,884,994, roughly 56.96%.

That's only a 0.07% increase in 7 years, but that 0.07% increase has resulted in an average pay bump of just over a million bucks per player. I know I'm completely over generalizing the situation, but that just gives an overview of what they're dealing with. Salary spending has remained constant, it's just a much bigger pie they're now consuming.

If you look at those numbers, it's apparent that the club owners are not benefiting from the situation and why shouldn't they? They're the ones investing their money to run an organization. It's not just player salaries they have to pay, there are arena leases, organizational salaries, travel, accommodations, meals, medical services, and let's not forget at the end of the day this is a business; as such they need to be able to run a profit at the end of the year otherwise what's the point?

The owners SHOULD be taking in the majority of the revenues, players should cease to be so greedy. On top of their ridiculous salaries, EVERYTHING club related is paid for, not to mention a lot of players receive endorsement deals. If these owners did not invest the money that they are, the players wouldn't have a league to play in.

I know the chicken and the egg argument can be an endless tug of war of logic, but it has to start somewhere. Without the owners, there are no teams. Without teams there is no league, in the end all you would really have are groupings of regional bush leagues and no elite level talent.

Everything exists because there is an ultimate goal; make the NHL and play in the best league in the world. It's why the grass root movement happened, it's why there are elite junior and college level development leagues, it's why there is a professional league a tier below the NHL.

My point to all of this, is if the players share of revenues (from which the cap floor and ceiling are derived) is reduced, player salaries will be equally reduced so that current salaries are in line with the cap. Moving forward the poster to whom you responded was correct, the cap will increase at a much less torrid pace.

The players should be mindful that they are part of an elite percentage of the population, being paid to play a sport and have the luxury of retiring before they are 40.

Before you say "well they take an incredible amount of punishment during their short lived careers" I will say this, with the advancement of physical fitness, training, awareness and medical technology, players bodies are in way better shape now than they ever were.

When their playing careers end, they don't simply stop working they continue on. They still make money, whether that be from investments, taking advantage of their education, business ownership etc.

Edit* Holy crap, I didn't mean to go on a rant, but I just don't see how the players can claim (I'm not sure that it's been publicly expressed, but certainly the sentiment is there) that they feel they don't need to leave a lot of money on the table this go around.


Good rant though. What baffles me, and yes I do have to put myself in the player's shoes, is exactly what responsibility do they have for the owner's financial well being? If I accept a nice contract, for any job, do I feel responsible for the profitability of the employer? I certainly don't think very hard on that subject at my job.

Now I understand Unions and all this, but it starts to baffle the mind when we start talking about the maximum wage issues. Most unions are primarily concerned with the minimum wage issues, if I understand anything at all. Negotiations turned on their head like this must feel rather awkward. You might ask yourself "So my boss is telling me he can't pay me what he offered me, even though this contract was just offered to me?"

Ultimately I don't think the players will provide the solution to the owner's problems if the ownership continues to so freely hand out the types of contracts being seen.

#1034 LiveforCanucksHockey

LiveforCanucksHockey

    Comets Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 237 posts
  • Joined: 28-June 08

Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:39 PM

Also I hope he is coming here, I think he would be a great addition to the top 6. With Kesler on LTIR to start the year, they know they'll have lots of cap space at the fingertips for some months before they are forced into any kind of move, so signing him is not a problem for their cap.

Was a little off topic that last post.

#1035 Biasbieksa

Biasbieksa

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 527 posts
  • Joined: 03-October 11

Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:53 PM

My faith in us getting Doan, is going down every day.
That article on Nhl.com, took me back to reality though. We are still a far shot at landing him.
He wants to be in Phoenix, and will give them every single opportunity to keep him.
This will be drawn out for a long time, until he finally signs in Phoenix.
Unfortunately thats the most likely situation. Im not going to remain optimistic anymore, maybe just a little hopeful.

Edited by Biasbieksa, 04 August 2012 - 09:54 PM.


#1036 shadowgoon

shadowgoon

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 698 posts
  • Joined: 03-January 10

Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:08 PM

Good rant though. What baffles me, and yes I do have to put myself in the player's shoes, is exactly what responsibility do they have for the owner's financial well being? If I accept a nice contract, for any job, do I feel responsible for the profitability of the employer? I certainly don't think very hard on that subject at my job.

Now I understand Unions and all this, but it starts to baffle the mind when we start talking about the maximum wage issues. Most unions are primarily concerned with the minimum wage issues, if I understand anything at all. Negotiations turned on their head like this must feel rather awkward. You might ask yourself "So my boss is telling me he can't pay me what he offered me, even though this contract was just offered to me?"

Ultimately I don't think the players will provide the solution to the owner's problems if the ownership continues to so freely hand out the types of contracts being seen.


Well no, the players shouldn't feel responsible at all. But at a certain point you gotta stop taking advantage of the slow kid in class, if you catch my drift.

Ultimately it is the owners fault for the mess they're in, they tried to correct it with the last CBA, the problem was that CBA was negotiated in between two economic downturns and they under estimated the willingness of people to spend the money that has been spent, how else do you account for 100% increase in revenues league wide over 7 years?

I believe the owners will get closer with this CBA, I hope they do get the contract term limitations and avoid ridiculous salary structures. It's unfortunate that they actually need rules in place to prevent them from spending their own money, but it's really in everyone's best interest.

With the rate of inflation being what it is, I don't think the players are going to be hurting much - if at all even with a salary rollback and reduced revenue percentages. If anything, the players might lose a bit of freedom to exercise certain rights but they would gain a significant amount of security which I think is paramount in the minds of most players, especially those with families.

#1037 Tystick

Tystick

    Canucks Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,508 posts
  • Joined: 21-February 12

Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:20 PM

My faith in us getting Doan, is going down every day.
That article on Nhl.com, took me back to reality though. We are still a far shot at landing him.
He wants to be in Phoenix, and will give them every single opportunity to keep him.
This will be drawn out for a long time, until he finally signs in Phoenix.
Unfortunately thats the most likely situation. Im not going to remain optimistic anymore, maybe just a little hopeful.


Man Doan't (tehe) get too down. Yes, he wants to stay in Phoenix, but the fact he traveled to other cities to have discussions with teams and view offers shows he IS growing impatient with Phoenix. His family is ahead of everything else, meaning eventually he will want to get everyone settled sooner than later, especially for the sake of his kids (A little stressful moving elsewhere as soon as school starts). His plan is too wait out on the situation as long as possible, but eventually if nothing changes with the coyotes, he will move on. I watched an interview with him on TSN today, and yes he did say he is trying to stay in Phoenix, but he also said the longer it takes to sign there, the more likely it becomes that he will not (Obvious I know, but at least he said it himself).

If I had to guess, I think he will make his decision within 2 weeks from now. Quote me on it.
Posted Image

#1038 Biasbieksa

Biasbieksa

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 527 posts
  • Joined: 03-October 11

Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:23 PM

^ Thanks for the optimism. Im still hopeful

#1039 oldnews

oldnews

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,092 posts
  • Joined: 30-March 11

Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:46 PM

For the 2005-2006 season, player salaries league wide totaled just north of $1 billion at $1,024,006,867 vs revenues just south of 1.8 billion. That's a 56.89% share.

For the 2011-2012 season that just passed, league revenues were a reported $3.1 billion, with league wide salaries being reported as $1,765,884,994, roughly 56.96%.

That's only a 0.07% increase in 7 years, but that 0.07% increase has resulted in an average pay bump of just over a million bucks per player. I know I'm completely over generalizing the situation, but that just gives an overview of what they're dealing with. Salary spending has remained constant, it's just a much bigger pie they're now consuming.

If you look at those numbers, it's apparent that the club owners are not benefiting from the situation and why shouldn't they? They're the ones investing their money to run an organization. It's not just player salaries they have to pay, there are arena leases, organizational salaries, travel, accommodations, meals, medical services, and let's not forget at the end of the day this is a business; as such they need to be able to run a profit at the end of the year otherwise what's the point?

The owners SHOULD be taking in the majority of the revenues, players should cease to be so greedy. On top of their ridiculous salaries, EVERYTHING club related is paid for, not to mention a lot of players receive endorsement deals. If these owners did not invest the money that they are, the players wouldn't have a league to play in.

I know the chicken and the egg argument can be an endless tug of war of logic, but it has to start somewhere. Without the owners, there are no teams. Without teams there is no league, in the end all you would really have are groupings of regional bush leagues and no elite level talent.

Everything exists because there is an ultimate goal; make the NHL and play in the best league in the world. It's why the grass root movement happened, it's why there are elite junior and college level development leagues, it's why there is a professional league a tier below the NHL.

My point to all of this, is if the players share of revenues (from which the cap floor and ceiling are derived) is reduced, player salaries will be equally reduced so that current salaries are in line with the cap. Moving forward the poster to whom you responded was correct, the cap will increase at a much less torrid pace.

The players should be mindful that they are part of an elite percentage of the population, being paid to play a sport and have the luxury of retiring before they are 40.

Before you say "well they take an incredible amount of punishment during their short lived careers" I will say this, with the advancement of physical fitness, training, awareness and medical technology, players bodies are in way better shape now than they ever were.

When their playing careers end, they don't simply stop working they continue on. They still make money, whether that be from investments, taking advantage of their education, business ownership etc.

Edit* Holy crap, I didn't mean to go on a rant, but I just don't see how the players can claim (I'm not sure that it's been publicly expressed, but certainly the sentiment is there) that they feel they don't need to leave a lot of money on the table this go around.



I'll interpret that as a vote of confidence for MG, who has managed to keep Canucks salaries relatively competitive, getting the best bang for the buck that he can under the cap - which in the end, serves ownership with a profitable product, pleases fans who want a competitive team for the prices they pay to access their team, and doesn't necessarily hurt players values whose performances on a great team increase their relative market value.

I'd say it also gives him liscence to sign Doan to a reasonable market value contract if possible.

Anyhow, to respond to your post...
What team has not signed players to contracts in line with current NHL market values? Owners in the NHL can't sing that song when they have sat back and allowed their GMs to operate as they have. The GMs are their agents. Who is the exception that has reeled in their GM?

I can't think of any. So imo, the rest is a reneg.

Burke, who is as vocal as any GM about escalated salaries and critical of long term contracts went out and acquired Phaneuf's 6 year 39 million contract, and then signed Grabovski at 6 million with a 1.5 million signing bonus and a 5.5 million cap hit over 5 years - a 50 point player with scarcely four seasons under his belt. On the other end of the spectrum, on the eve of the new CBA players are being signed to 100 million dollar deals with 13 and 14 year terms...

In terms of "costs" (if you are going to talk "meals") - there is obviously another side to that issue - in addition to tickets, television contracts, merchandise and liscensing agreements, royalties from things like video games, etc, etc, all the spin-off, separated profits - things like concessions, beer sales, parking, etc, etc.

The idea that the sides can drag out the slicing of the gigantic pie to the point where they don't get the show on the road in time to start the season - again - doesn't gain much sympathy.

First thing that comes to mind - whatever their rollback demands are... a relative roll back in ticket prices, merchandise prices, etc, etc.

In other words, get the g.d. CBA done. It's a lose, lose, lose to fail to do so.

Oh yeah, and when is Doan gonna announce he is a Canuck?

Edited by oldnews, 04 August 2012 - 11:24 PM.


#1040 oldnews

oldnews

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,092 posts
  • Joined: 30-March 11

Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:09 PM

did you miss the part about the 20-25% salary rollback, which is exactly what happened last time? what that means is that every single existing nhl contract has its value (and therefore cap hit) reduced by that percentage. in other words, the sedins would be making ~$4.5 million per year instead of $6.1 million and so on.




NHL CBA: Why a Salary Rollback Is a Non-Starter for the NHLPA



By

Steve Silverman(Analyst) on August 1, 2012

Posted Image Donald Fehr is not anatagonizing the NHL with angry rhetoric.
Al Messerschmidt/Getty Images

There's a certain maturity to the early reports of the negotiations between the National Hockey League and the NHL Players' Association.
The rhetoric is calm. Nobody is threatening a strike or a walkout. NHLPA boss Donald Fehr has called Sept. 15 just a "date on the calendar," meaning that if the two sides have not reached an agreement, it doesn't mean that a work stoppage is at hand (source: Wall Street Journal.com).
Additionally, the issues that the two sides are discussing regarding training camp, injuries, roster moves and medical care don't involve a big difference of opinion, according to Fehr (source: Yahoo! Sports).
However, the elephant in the room is the subject of salary rollback.
If the NHL is going to insist that players roll back their salaries further after giving in on that issue in the last Collective Bargaining Agreement, it will increase the level of hostility between the two sides.
In fact, if it's something that the owners are going to demand, it could lead to an end to the negotiations before they begin.
Here's the issue at hand. Salaries were rolled back 24 percent during the 2004-05 work stoppage. At this point, owners are looking for another 24 percent roll back.
Posted Image Gary Bettman and the owners are asking for a salary rollback in their initial proposal.
Mike Stobe/Getty Images
NHLPA analysts came up with this figure because the league is asking for a reduction in the players' share of the revenue to 46 percent. However, it is also asking for certain hockey-related revenue (HRR) to be excluded from the equation.
The exclusions and the owners' proposal would effectively reduce the players' share of the revenue to 43 percent, according to David Shoalts of the Toronto Globe and Mail.
On its face, this would appear to be a hard slap in the face to those who gave up so much in the last CBA.
For all the pleasantries coming from both sides, it might be difficult for Fehr to negotiate seriously with the league if it is going to maintain that position.
Even if Fehr is able to sit across the table from the league's representatives, it would be impossible for him to go to the players and ask them to accept what the owners are presenting.
So, it appears that serious negotiations may be difficult to maintain if the owners are not going to move from their initial proposal.
Does that mean a work stoppage is likely?



That's not necessarily the case. Since Fehr has maintained that Sept. 15 is just a date on the calendar, it is clear that he will force the owners to make the hostile move of locking players out of training camp. Fehr says the players are willing to maintain working under the current conditions whether they have a new agreement or not.
That's a strong position, and it's one that will win points with the game's advertisers and fans. Fehr is maintaining a "reasonable" persona. If the league locks its doors, it will be difficult to see that as reasonable behavior.
The next step is a counter proposal from the NHLPA. Fehr would not commit to a specific date for the proposal, but it is clear that the players will have a different take when they come to the table.
Both sides agree that revenues have increased significantly since the last work stoppage. However, while some teams are quite profitable due to these revenue increases, some of the smaller market teams are not (source: Toronto Globe and Mail). This may be part of the motivation for asking for concessions from the players.
Fehr may suggest new ways for the league to share its revenues as part of the NHLPA's counterproposal.
If the league wants to listen and negotiate, a work stoppage is not inevitable.
However, stubbornness and strong rhetoric may be the indicator that owners will lock their doors Sept. 15.
The owners are not likely to show their hand until the players come back with their counter propsoal. The hockey world waits anxiously.

#1041 MikeyBoy44

MikeyBoy44

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,021 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 09

Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:48 PM

Has this gone on long enough to have a pinned Doan reports/rumors thread? It's getting tougher sifting through the bs.
Posted Image

#1042 Drive-By Body Pierce

Drive-By Body Pierce

    Canucks Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,993 posts
  • Joined: 09-October 08

Posted 05 August 2012 - 12:14 AM

Has this gone on long enough to have a pinned Doan reports/rumors thread? It's getting tougher sifting through the bs.


Posted Image


#1043 hsedin33

hsedin33

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,663 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 10

Posted 05 August 2012 - 12:46 AM

Has this gone on long enough to have a pinned Doan reports/rumors thread? It's getting tougher sifting through the bs.


Seriously. I think I'm pretty much done with CDC, I can find actual information elsewhere much quicker.

Edited by hsedin33, 05 August 2012 - 12:52 AM.


#1044 G-52

G-52

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 694 posts
  • Joined: 29-April 12

Posted 05 August 2012 - 01:07 AM

Thats cuz the mods insist on having 1 god damn thread for the broadest of subjects, you get 1000 frackin replies and its ???? impossible to read anything or get any information. This forum is mostly a joke, full of idiots that don't know hockey from their ass.

Posted Image


#1045 Hobbes!!!

Hobbes!!!

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,987 posts
  • Joined: 07-May 03

Posted 05 August 2012 - 04:49 AM

I would LOVE to have him here. He'd be a great fit. But over 6M and I would run for the hills, given his declining offensive production and age (yesyes, intangibles etc, I know)


#1046 Moonshinefe

Moonshinefe

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,039 posts
  • Joined: 15-March 11

Posted 05 August 2012 - 05:35 AM

Thats cuz the mods insist on having 1 god damn thread for the broadest of subjects, you get 1000 frackin replies and its ???? impossible to read anything or get any information. This forum is mostly a joke, full of idiots that don't know hockey from their ass.


I'm sure we'd get higher quality information if we got rid of the people who whine, cry, and talk trash about groups of people. That'd be a good start.

Edited by Moonshinefe, 05 August 2012 - 05:36 AM.


#1047 Pears

Pears

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,241 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 11

Posted 05 August 2012 - 05:37 AM

I'm sure we'd get higher quality information if we got rid of the people who whine, cry, and talk trash about groups of people. That'd be a good start.


In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1048 Jai604

Jai604

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,039 posts
  • Joined: 14-October 10

Posted 05 August 2012 - 05:40 AM

I'm sure we'd get higher quality information if we got rid of the people who whine, cry, and talk trash about groups of people. That'd be a good start.


RIP LB RR PD


#1049 Special Ed

Special Ed

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,538 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 09

Posted 05 August 2012 - 07:27 AM

Hope this ends soon.

If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#1050 Jester13

Jester13

    Canucks Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,814 posts
  • Joined: 30-August 09

Posted 05 August 2012 - 07:46 AM

Thats cuz the mods insist on having 1 god damn thread for the broadest of subjects, you get 1000 frackin replies and its ???? impossible to read anything or get any information. This forum is mostly a joke, full of idiots that don't know hockey from their ass.


And yet here you are :sadno:

"Education is the inoculator for ignorance."





Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.