aGENT Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Sorry JR it's not flawed but people are looking too much into it thinking I'm saying things like "it's easier for an atheist to murder someone" which is of course ridiculous and not even close to what I was saying. Again I never said people don't answer for their actions. My point was at the end of your life you aren't judged for those actions by a god and that is what is appealing. To what I first bolded: That's my whole point. Forget my stupid murder example. My point is atheism has an appeal as well and you just put in your own words why it does for you. To what I second bolded: Exactly - religion has a way of making you feel guilty for things that you shouldn't. I don't see how I "stepped in it" everyone seems to actually agree with my main point that there is a certain appeal to not have to worry about being judged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 And I'm telling you that holds no "appeal" because it's most likely NO ONE is judged by a supreme being at the end of their life. I'm judged IN this life, just like everyone else. If they weren't things to be guilty of in the first place, how is that "appealing"? That's just common sense IMO. I'm not arguing there is no appealing merits to atheism, there certainly is! I'm arguing that what you're saying they are is bass-ackwards. If you're only atheist so you can "get away with things", I think you're missing the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I guess it's just how you choose to look at it. I disagree with what you say but I guess that'll have to be ok. But yeah what you bolded is not what I was arguing.... Anywho... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 What are you arguing then? Because that's seemed to be the entire premise of your argument to me and a couple other people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Simply put just that I find it appealing to not be worried about being judged at the end of my life (and that atheism can be appealing to some similarly to how religion can be appealing to some...not that appeal should make one a theist or atheist). Unfortunately it turned out to seems like I was arguing atheists can do whatever they want. I guess it was just a poor or unclear example that started that off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Simply put just that I find it appealing to not be worried about being judged at the end of my life (and that atheism can be appealing to some similarly to how religion can be appealing to some...not that appeal should make one a theist or atheist). Unfortunately it turned out to seems like I was arguing atheists can do whatever they want. I guess it was just a poor or unclear example that started that off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I don't see any reason or evidence for an objective meaning for existence. It'd be nice if there was, but what I want has no bearing on what there actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 This has to be one of the weakest arguments that the religious use. As an atheist, I can confirm that my life feels very far from meaningless. However, meaning is certainly subjective (even if I think that's part of what makes the whole thing beautiful, you're welcome to disagree). Here's an analogy. Imagine someone that had never been exposed to English. The letters, the sounds, all of it, meaningless to this person. Pretty useless, right? Except that, for us, we have given it meaning. A lot of meaning. Words, in any language, can topple governments and build empires. And yet it's composed of symbols, each of which would indeed be meaningless if we didn't have agreed upon meanings for them. And, by the very act of ascribing meaning to those letters and sounds ... guess what? They gain actual, true meaning. It's the same with us, as humans. What we choose to give meaning, has meaning. Like the basic sociological principal: "a situation defined as real, is real in its consequences". I know what's important to me, but it sure as hell isn't some imaginary dude in the sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICanucksfan5551 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Just because you don't see a reason, doesn't mean that there isn't one. You are presenting your claim as a fact, when there is no evidence to support it. Your argument can go both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I haven't claimed anything. You're the one who said there's a purpose for existence. I simply asked for your justification and you haven't been able to back up your claim with anything other than saying that "it makes sense". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICanucksfan5551 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 When you say it would be nice for there to be a meaning to existence, you're making a claim for that to be true. And I say it makes sense for there to be meaning to life. That's my reasoning for believing it. I never said it was true, or that I'm right. If someone challenges my beliefs, I will explain why I believe it. I don't know any of the answers, and neither does anyone else, which has been my argument the entire time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.DirtyDangles Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 So you're saying we're not really here...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tearloch7 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 We are only here because we think we are here. Without thought there is nothing. So technically we came from something or somewhere that someone had initially thought of or it is all just an elaborate dream and we are just in the matrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I'm making a claim for what to be true? But you never explained why it "made sense", aside from wishful thinking and appeals to emotion. At least be honest and admit that you believe it because you want it to be true. Common sense has been proven to be a failure at describing the universe on so many levels, anyways. Stuff like general relativity and quantum mechanics go completely contrary to common sense, yet the weight of evidence supports them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICanucksfan5551 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 The claim of there being no meaning to life. At least, that's what you said in your one post. I've explained why I believe what I believe in other posts. For example: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevlach Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Everyone has to admit it is something like a miracle that concepts like reason and purpose can even exist in a universe that was mindless, unguided, without reason or purpose. If you think about it long enough I'm pretty sure your mind will explode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 So you believe that everything just happened for no reason, yet there is reason to life because we say there is? All that means is a person giving their life a meaning because they believe that they didn't have one to begin with. Where does the meaning in people's lives come from then? Because clearly all of our ancestors' lives meant nothing, considering the only way to have meaning in life is while being alive. Since the end result is the same for everyone, what was the point in everything you did, it's not like you will remember any of it. That's as if life was like that slender video game. No matter what you do, or how well you do, the result is the same. A bad ending... caught by slenderman. Big Bang has no purpose if the end result is nothingness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Where did I say that? I can't answer for the poster you were replying to, but people can make their own subjective reasons for living just fine if they so wish. They're called subjective for a reason. Why would subjective purpose not exist if something is finite? That just does not follow. Does a charity fundraiser not have purpose because it doesn't last forever? Does a bomb not have purpose because it's destroyed in being used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Our ancestors lives meant things to them and the people they loved. We wouldn't exist if they hadn't created us. They also gained knowledge which has been passed on and added to. All part of evolution really. Why does there need to be more than that? Our purpose is to live and try and pass on our genetic material and give that material it's best fighting chance to do the same. I try to be the best person I can to, in some small part, "make the world a better place" (for my offspring). The whole "be the change you wish to see" theory. I try to experience different places, cultures, food etc and love my family and friends to the fullest because I know I and they are all temporary, so it's best to enjoy them while we can. But everything else is really secondary to the genetic material thing. We amuse ourselves with other things because we have evolved brains that enjoy stimulation at the root of it. We work so that we can afford things that attract a mate and provide food, shelter etc for them and our offspring. Why do you need a magic man in the sky to make something "more" of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICanucksfan5551 Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 People can and will subjective reasons all they want, but it's the objective reason that I'm referring too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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