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The Ethics of Eating Non-Human Animals


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#91 avelanch

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:34 AM

I call bullshi....

yeah, less poo=less CH4, not CO2
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#92 goalie13

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:36 AM

yeah, less poo=less CH4, not CO2


But that doesn't rhyme.
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#93 Tearloch7

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:37 AM

yeah, less poo=less CH4, not CO2


Agreed but it does not rhyme .. studies I have seen indicate CH4 is actually a much more potent "greenhouse gas" .. just that CO2 is more prevalent, so it gets all the ink .. so .. "less bovine spoor .. less CO4" .. :P
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#94 Shift-4

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:43 AM

We were supposed to be rhyming?
Guess I got to work on my timing.
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#95 Tearloch7

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:46 AM

We were supposed to be rhyming?
Guess I got to work on my timing.


I guess you do, when it comes to poo .. :emot-parrot:
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"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

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#96 theminister

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

Don't worry, Shifty. The argument is poo.
Just like the last thread by Cup of Stew.

I know my meter for this rhyme is loose
but it still makes more sense than Silly Goose

Honk! Honk!
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#97 avelanch

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:59 AM

rhyming is overrated



not gonna happen.


meat is good though, Iove meat.

Edited by avelanch, 01 November 2012 - 10:59 AM.

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#98 Tearloch7

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:02 AM

Don't worry, Shifty. The argument is poo.
Just like the last thread by Cup of Stew.

I know my meter for this rhyme is loose
but it still makes more sense than Silly Goose

Honk! Honk!


With rhythm like that, you just may be the next Dr. Seuss .. or a candidate for Sesame Street's writing staff .. :)
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"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

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#99 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:56 AM

With rhythm like that, you just may be the next Dr. Seuss .. or a candidate for Sesame Street's writing staff .. :)

Not if Romney gets his way. ;)
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#100 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:04 PM

Yes, SamIam I do not like green eggs and ham!
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#101 Kamero89

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:17 PM

Intellgience wise there is not much difference between a dog and a pig, yet it's ok to eat and farm pigs, yet illegal to do so with dogs. Why? Because one was deemed to cute to do so.

I DON'T eat meat, obviously, but I am not totally against someone eating it. Just want to point out, we only eat animals that we don't find adorable
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#102 avelanch

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:20 PM

Intellgience wise there is not much difference between a dog and a pig, yet it's ok to eat and farm pigs, yet illegal to do so with dogs. Why? Because one was deemed to cute to do so.

I DON'T eat meat, obviously, but I am not totally against someone eating it. Just want to point out, we only eat animals that we don't find adorable

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I'd make it bacon in an instant.
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#103 D-Money

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:02 PM

I'm all for animal rights...


...but animal lefts are equally good.


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#104 Tearloch7

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:21 PM

Not if Romney gets his way. ;)


Well, anyone who can write for Sesame Street is a shoo in to write speech's for Mittens .. so one door closing could open two more afore him .. :rolleyes:

Edited by Tearloch7, 01 November 2012 - 02:22 PM.

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#105 لني

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:07 PM

http://forum.canucks...ity-of-animals/
same guy


Exactly what i was thinking. Was looking through the thread to see if anyone mentioned it.
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#106 Common sense

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:35 AM

Fun fact - Nov 1st was World Vegan Day, so you all missed your chance to get on your soapboxes and tell us omnivores how bad we are.
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#107 Mountain Man

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:39 AM

Fun fact - Nov 1st was World Vegan Day, so you all missed your chance to get on your soapboxes and tell us omnivores how bad we are.


what, a second thread on non human animals wasn't good enough for you?
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#108 avelanch

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 06:38 AM

Fun fact - Nov 1st was World Vegan Day, so you all missed your chance to get on your soapboxes and tell us omnivores how bad we are.

Fun fact - I doubled my meat consumption on Nov 1st to make up for the idiocy.
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#109 Pistachios

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:09 PM

Fun fact - I doubled my meat consumption on Nov 1st to make up for the idiocy.


I find it hilarious that you throw around terms like "idiocy" when it is blatantly obvious that you (among others) are irrational and therefore being not sensible/idiots.

Argument from Agony
  • Experience tells us that being in agony is morally bad
  • Anything morally bad always gives us a reason to want to avoid it
  • Therefore, being in agony always gives us a reason to want to avoid it
Argument from Moral Consideration
  • Anything that has an interest (e.g. avoiding agony) is morally considerable
  • Sentient beings have interests
  • Non-human animals and humans are sentient beings
  • Therefore, non-human animals and humans are morally considerable
Deduction from Both arguments:

If non-human animals are morally considerable, and being in agony always gives us a reason to avoid it, then it rationally follows that causing non-human animals to be in agony gives us normative reason to alleviate it. If being in agony is worth avoiding, this reason must apply to non-human animals as well because they are morally considerable. To discount their interests requires arguing why animals are not morally considerable, or why their interests ought to be overridden. Taste doesn't cut it. Nutrition doesn't cut it either.

That I rationally recognize these conclusions and act accordingly is the sensible/smart/intelligent thing to do. That isn't being self serving. That's being logical.

What have you said so far Avelanche? All I can say about you is that you are one big nincompoop. To spell it out for you, that means foolish or stupid.

Good day.

Oh and I think the OP deserves to be changed to this really.
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#110 avelanch

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:13 PM

how is being in agony immoral?

so not only are you suffering, but you are committing an act that violates the socially accepted moral code while doing so? wow, that's like throwing salt on a wound.

Edited by avelanch, 02 November 2012 - 12:16 PM.

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#111 theminister

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:20 PM

Still trying the morality card, eh Stew? You failed miserably to prove it last time and you will again this time. I'm still waiting for your answers to my questions.

By your painfully simplistic argument, short quick deaths of animals results in sudden pain but no agony destroying your argument.

Do fish qualify as having sentience? Slugs? Insects?
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#112 unknown33429

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:23 PM

I'll throw in my 2 cents

Two arguments that seem to be prevalent here are:

1) Animals eat other animals and human have been eating animals for centuries, therefore it's acceptable for people to do it too.

The first part of the argument, if applied to all things, would justify all sorts of behaviors we consider inhumane.

Things animals do that we shouldn't: sex without consent, killing of other animals of same species, killing of babies fathered by a previous dominant male, cannibalism (our closest relative in the animal kingdom, chimps, do this as well), incest...i could go on, but I think my point is clear that we should have a higher standard than animals.

The second part of the argument, which is do what humans have done for centuries leads to similar problems.

Things people in history have done that we shouldn't: slavery, racism in general, sexism (no rights for women), rape within a marriage (legal in Canada until the 70,s or 80's), residential schools, genocide...These things, were not only common and legal, but also socially accepted. Basically, we should hold ourselves to higher standards than our previous generations.

2) It is natural for humans to eat animals, since it is part of our biology.

This is a tough one. But humans are omnivores, and can meet most of our nutritional needs from consumption of plants and fungi, and we have the capacity to do so because of our intellect, so eating meat just seems unnecessary.

The morality of not eating meat may likely not be understood by someone that has never been to a slaughterhouse, or killed an animal. It's very easy to detach yourself from the situation when the meat is cut and packaged. It's just a matter of empathy, and the ability of putting yourself in the animals' shoes (I know they don't actually wear shoes). Some people aren't able to do that, but I think eating meat is wrong for the same reason as the killing of dolphins by the Japanese (which generally, people agree is wrong), or killing and eating of dogs (animals we can more easily sympathize with because of their relations to humans), or killing of seals (which most find unacceptable just because we think they are cute).

Edit: The killing of animals in wild by humans is unsustainable for the most part, and the farming of animals has similar problems. For pragmatic reasons, it also makes sense to be a vegetarian.

Edited by unknown33429, 02 November 2012 - 12:27 PM.

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#113 Teen Icarus

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:25 PM

I have a one word argument for eating meat: BACON!!!!
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Bears eat meat when it's available; same with all the other omnivores. They don't go "Oh, I'm causing another animal pain - I guess I shouldn't eat it."
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#114 AbbyNucksFan

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:25 PM

so you're comparing eating meat to slavery and incest? good job.
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#115 avelanch

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:29 PM

so you're comparing eating meat to slavery and incest? good job.

clearly they are analogous situations.
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#116 unknown33429

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:32 PM

so you're comparing eating meat to slavery and incest? good job.


You missed the point. I was trying to show that if a lion does something, or humans have done something in the past, it is not a good argument to say it's ok for humans to do it today. Frankly, human behavior, and acceptance of certain things has changed dramatically in the last few centuries.

Edited by unknown33429, 02 November 2012 - 12:35 PM.

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Are you CRAZY??? Trade Green for ONE first round pick?? He's restricted after this season.... He WILL get an offer sheet for 7-8 million from a number of teams regardless if he plays another minute for us or not. That offer sheet would be worth 4 first round draft choices.


Some fans overrate their players, and then there is this guy.

#117 avelanch

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:39 PM

You missed the point. I was trying to show that if a lion does something, or humans have done something in the past, it is not a good argument to say it's ok for humans to do it today. Frankly, human behavior, and acceptance of certain things has changed dramatically in the last few centuries.

And yet, eating meat is not one of them.
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#118 unknown33429

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:39 PM

clearly they are analogous situations.


My points obviously were:

"but I think my point is clear that we should have a higher standard than animals"
"Basically, we should hold ourselves to higher standards than our previous generations"

What you are talking about were used to exemplify my point, and they don't need to be analogous to the situation at hand. My points, however, can be applied to the situation at hand. No need to attack my examples.
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Are you CRAZY??? Trade Green for ONE first round pick?? He's restricted after this season.... He WILL get an offer sheet for 7-8 million from a number of teams regardless if he plays another minute for us or not. That offer sheet would be worth 4 first round draft choices.


Some fans overrate their players, and then there is this guy.

#119 theminister

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:41 PM

You missed the point. I was trying to show that if a lion does something, or humans have done something in the past, it is not a good argument to say it's ok for humans to do it today. Frankly, human behavior, and acceptance of certain things has changed dramatically in the last few centuries.

The question though is what is not OK? Killing and eating animals? Or doing it humanely, efficiently and with a lessening environmental impact? Is it a question of health or resource allocation? Should humans just eat less meat?See, Stew doesn't make any of these points. His is strictly a black and white argument of morality based on his conception of sentience and moral consideration. Since he cannot make a scientific delineation of these concepts then his case is purely metaphysical. Believing he can decide what is moral for 6 billion people from thousands of distinct cultures is arrogant. This is where his claims fall apart.
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#120 unknown33429

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:44 PM

And yet, eating meat is not one of them.


True, I'll concede to that. But killing of certain animals is becoming socially unacceptable (seals, dolphins) which I believe should be universally applied, since there is no reason to limit it to those species. But that's just my opinion.

Eating meat will become a serious issue since it is not sustainable (wild animals or farm raised), and humans are becoming empathetic towards more species as time goes by. Maybe, we'll reach cows at a certain point (I know they are not as cute as seals, but it's no reason for them to die).
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Are you CRAZY??? Trade Green for ONE first round pick?? He's restricted after this season.... He WILL get an offer sheet for 7-8 million from a number of teams regardless if he plays another minute for us or not. That offer sheet would be worth 4 first round draft choices.


Some fans overrate their players, and then there is this guy.




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