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27 Dead in Connecticut Elementary School Shooting


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#631 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:39 PM

Man...first of all...those "rights" you mentioned are not "rights" in the first place. There was never anything in the Constitution giving the right to any of those things...there are however things mentioning "Freedom of Speech, "Freedom of Expression", "Freedom of Assembly", the right to a speedy trial, "Freedom of Religion", et cetera. These are the BIG ones. If the government ever tried to **** with either of THOSE rights, I wouldn't be surprised to see a violent backlash. And yes...states have taken those things away...but the FEDERAL government has not, so they are in essence irrelevant to a discussion on federal laws.

The rights you speak of still have relevance in this day and age. The right to arm oneself to protect against the tyranny of the British government does not.

It's ridiculous to assume that the loss of the right to carry assault weapons, or semi-automatic handguns will lead to the loss of freedom of speech, assembly or religion.
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#632 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

The rights you speak of still have relevance in this day and age. The right to arm oneself to protect against the tyranny of the British government does not.

It's ridiculous to assume that the loss of the right to carry assault weapons, or semi-automatic handguns will lead to the loss of freedom of speech, assembly or religion.


I never assumed anything of the kind...if you read one of the posts I made earlier in this thread I do not support allowing people who are non-military to purchase, own or carry assault rifles or semi automatic weapons of any kind. Shotguns and single shot handguns yes, assault weapons no.

And it isn't the tyranny of the British government that has so many people here paranoid...it's their perceived notion of the tyranny of the American one.

Edited by Munchie Marauder, 16 December 2012 - 05:42 PM.

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#633 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

I never assumed anything of the kind...if you read one of the posts I made earlier in this thread I do not support allowing people who are non-military to purchase, own or carry assault rifles or semi automatic weapons of any kind. Shotguns and single shot handguns yes, assault weapons no.

This is what I have been saying all along. That's what happens when you come late to a thread and start arguing....

And it isn't the tyranny of the British government that has so many people here paranoid...it's their perceived notion of the tyranny of the American one.

You miss my point.

The Brits were the reason for the inclusion of the right to bear arms when the original document was created. Thinking that you need to arm yourself in case you need to "rise up" against your own government is exactly the kind of paranoia that has the rest of the first world shaking their collective heads at Americans.
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#634 Bob Chen

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:56 PM

Lp
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#635 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:00 PM

This is what I have been saying all along. That's what happens when you come late to a thread and start arguing....


You miss my point.

The Brits were the reason for the inclusion of the right to bear arms when the original document was created. Thinking that you need to arm yourself in case you need to "rise up" against your own government is exactly the kind of paranoia that has the rest of the first world shaking their collective heads at Americans.



Oh don't lay this "that's what happens when you come into a thread late" BS on me, man. Like it would have taken you any amount of time to look at the rest of my posts before making an assumption that I assumed anything like you suggested in your last post. I don't own a weapon to start with so it doesn't affect me any but there ARE people down here, in my very state, that harbor the kind of paranoia you spoke about in this post.

Edited by Munchie Marauder, 16 December 2012 - 06:01 PM.

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#636 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

Oh don't lay this "that's what happens when you come into a thread late" BS on me, man. Like it would have taken you any amount of time to look at the rest of my posts before making an assumption that I assumed anything like you suggested in your last post. I don't own a weapon to start with so it doesn't affect me any but there ARE people down here, in my very state, that harbor the kind of paranoia you spoke about in this post.

It's not BS. Why should I look at your posts? You were the one who came into the thread and commented on one of my posts, without knowing the full story. You should have gone back and looked at my posts, before "making an assumption" about my position and starting a debate with me.

Second: I don't doubt that there are people "down there" who are paranoid enough to carry out attacks against their own government. I have heard of Timothy McVeigh, after all. However, I don't see how this strengthens your position. You seem to think that you'd be better off allowing these people to arm themselves.

It isn't the government you need to worry about. It's the Lanzas, McVeighs, Harris', etc.
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#637 Electro Rock

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:14 PM

You've never heard of Fort Hood? One would assume that there was going to be a gun or two there....


I've already covered that, regular soldiers can't have guns, or at least ones with ammunition, on base. It wasn't until the cops arrived that the shooter had anything to worry about.
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#638 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

It's not BS. Why should I look at your posts? You were the one who came into the thread and commented on one of my posts, without knowing the full story. You should have gone back and looked at my posts, before "making an assumption" about my position and starting a debate with me.

Second: I don't doubt that there are people "down there" who are paranoid enough to carry out attacks against their own government. I have heard of Timothy McVeigh, after all. However, I don't see how this strengthens your position. You seem to think that you'd be better off allowing these people to arm themselves.

It isn't the government you need to worry about. It's the Lanzas, McVeighs, Harris', etc.


Allowing them to arm themselves with a handgun or a shotgun to defend themselves yes. First, I wasn't attempting to "strengthen" anything...Second, I wasn't attempting to debate YOU in the first place. I was commenting that maybe the poster you were talking to MEANT the Bill of Rights when he was talking about the Freedom of Speech and not the Second Amendment as he originally stated. YOU were the one who had something snarky to say to me about that, sir. Then you make an unwarranted and out of left field assumption that I PERSONALLY assumed that the loss of assault weapons and the like would lead to the loss of the other freedoms, which is categorically absurd. Climb down off your cross.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#639 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

Allowing them to arm themselves with a handgun or a shotgun to defend themselves yes. First, I wasn't attempting to "strengthen" anything...Second, I wasn't attempting to debate YOU in the first place. I was commenting that maybe the poster you were talking to MEANT the Bill of Rights when he was talking about the Freedom of Speech and not the Second Amendment as he originally stated. YOU were the one who had something snarky to say to me about that, sir. Then you make an unwarranted and out of left field assumption that I PERSONALLY assumed that the loss of assault weapons and the like would lead to the loss of the other freedoms, which is categorically absurd. Climb down off your cross.

You seem to be getting a bit worked up here mate. Perhaps you need another one of those tokes you were talking about earlier in the thread. (See? I Have been reading your posts)
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#640 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:35 PM

You seem to be getting a bit worked up here mate. Perhaps you need another one of those tokes you were talking about earlier in the thread. (See? I Have been reading your posts)


In any case, I was merely commenting on what the other poster had said, and offered a suggestion as to what he actually meant. I never meant to start an argument with you.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#641 Tearloch7

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:39 PM

The President is speaking in Newtown ..
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#642 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:41 PM

In any case, I was merely commenting on what the other poster had said, and offered a suggestion as to what he actually meant. I never meant to start an argument with you.

Fair enough. Lets leave it at that, shall we?
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#643 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:46 PM

Fair enough. Lets leave it at that, shall we?


Agreed.
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#644 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:49 PM

Obama is one hell of a great speaker.
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#645 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

I was questioning the relevance of the 2nd amendment, to which the other poster brought up "freedom of speech". There was no mention of the bill of rights as a whole.

Actually posters who mention speech do mention rights as a whole, you just have an awful selective reading problem:


Restrictive? You have a twisted sense of what restrictive is. Read the article posted earlier about gun ownership in Japan. That's restrictive. (You may also want to note the effect that these laws have had on gun-related deaths in a country where over 100 million people are crammed into a few small islands) As the popular saying goes: "This would never happen in Japan".

In regards to your continued use of the term knee-jerk: I was an adult when Columbine happened and I called for changes then, I did so again after West Nickel Mines School, again Virginia Tech, again after Tuscon, and again after Aurora...

This has been an issue for me for over a decade. Nothing "knee-jerk" about it.

Congratulations on calling for a change while suggesting to impose restricting American rights if not a complete elimination of one of them due to subjectively not feeling others should own them. Its not merely an issue for you because if it were you'd only be talking about yourself being restricted or losing ownership not anyone else. As for the America vs Japan thing everyone knows theres a problem here but some of us can actually blame the people doing it and not the weapon itself and punish those not doing anything wrong, and some of us respect all rights, even those we dont utilise.. and even when some very few abuse them.



Here's a post back in July about the very same thing where you spend all thread talking about how I'm some NRA hack:


I have no "mental block" whatsoever. I understand completely that you believe the lawmakers would be incapable of keeping any kind of gun control legislation to within reasonable levels.

I just don't happen to believe that you're correct in this assertion.

And I don't really care if you say you've "been there and done that" It's patently ridiculous and exactly the type of propaganda that the NRA promotes.

So let me get this straight, you disregard the gun control lobby which has the influence to get gun bans passed in complete contravention to the second amendment, but direct your ire toward the NRA's mindless propaganda machine? You've entirely invested your opinions into fiction and CDC-land theories that are outside the realm of reality.

The sad part is your incapability of separating someone who values constitutional rights (all of them) from the NRA, but given the responses to me here, unsurprising.


Perpetuate myths all you like, thankfully there's a quote function to prove you wrong.

Edited by zaibatsu, 16 December 2012 - 07:00 PM.

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#646 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:55 PM

Dammit I'm crying.
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#647 Tearloch7

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:56 PM

Actually posters who mention speech do mention rights as a whole, you just have an awful selective reading problem:


Bugger off Z .. you are a vexation ..
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#648 Tearloch7

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:57 PM

Dammit I'm crying.


Me as well .. again .. man's inhumanity to man .. while some can only focus on themselves .. time for the USA to fish or cut bait ..
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#649 inane

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:05 PM

Me as well .. again .. man's inhumanity to man .. while some can only focus on themselves .. time for the USA to fish or cut bait ..


Yeah, this is all just political bs until he does something.
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#650 KelownaCanucksFan

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:06 PM

What poignant speech by Obama, if this does not lead to change in America in their attitude towards firearms of this type then all hope is lost for that country. This tragic and senseless act toward the most defenseless and innocent members of society must lead to removal of all these guns from homes and the civilian population. There is no need for anyone not either in military or police to have an assault rifle.
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#651 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:10 PM

What poignant speech by Obama, if this does not lead to change in America in their attitude towards firearms of this type then all hope is lost for that country. This tragic and senseless act toward the most defenseless and innocent members of society must lead to removal of all these guns from homes and the civilian population. There is no need for anyone not either in military or police to have an assault rifle.

The American populace isn't going to sever one of their constitutional rights because a President who is poignant with a speech makes a statement, nor because some random people naively believe Americans have no legitimate (and just as logically.. legal) use for a gun.
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#652 inane

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:13 PM

The American populace isn't going to sever one of their constitutional rights because a President who is poignant with a speech makes a statement, nor because some random people naively believe Americans have no legitimate (and just as logically.. legal) use for a gun.


Probably not, it is a nation built on violence, this won't be the last time this happens that's for sure.
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#653 Tearloch7

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:14 PM

It's too bad Zaibatsu has me on ignore .. it makes it pointless for me to tell him to go frack himself .. he has all the empathy of a two day old booger .. P.S. they had the right to own slaves and gave that up ..

Edited by Tearloch7, 16 December 2012 - 07:15 PM.

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#654 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:17 PM

Probably not, it is a nation built on violence, this won't be the last time this happens that's for sure.

That's a problem that Americans must solve as a country.

Removal of a weapon isn't the magical solution.
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#655 inane

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

That's a problem that Americans must solve as a country.

Removal of a weapon isn't the magical solution.


No, but taking military grade automatic weapons out of k-mart has got to be a start...
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#656 Wetcoaster

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:20 PM

There was a federal ban on semi-automatic assault rifles passed in 1994 and signed into law by Clinton but it had ten year sunset clause and expired in 2004. Since then there has not been another law passed.


Criteria of an assault weapon

Assault weapon (semi-automatic) refers primarily (but not exclusively) to firearms that possess the cosmetic features of an assault rifle (which are fully-automatic). Actually possessing the operational features, such as 'full-auto', is not required for classification as an assault weapon; merely the possession of cosmetic features is enough to warrant such classification as an assault weapon. Semi-automatic firearms, when fired, automatically extract the spent cartridge casing and load the next cartridge into the chamber, ready to fire again; they do not fire automatically like a machine gun; rather, only one round is fired with each trigger pull.

In the former U.S. law, the legal term assault weapon included certain specific semi-automatic firearm models by name (e.g., Colt AR-15, TEC-9, non-select-fire AK-47s produced by three manufacturers, and Uzis) and other semi-automatic firearms because they possess a minimum set of cosmetic features from the following list of features:

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
  • Folding or telescoping stock
  • Pistol grip
  • Bayonet mount
  • Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
  • Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally).

Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
  • Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
  • Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
  • Barrel shroud that can be used as a hand-hold
  • Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
  • A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm.

Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:
  • Folding or telescoping stock
  • Pistol grip
  • Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
  • Detachable magazine.

http://en.wikipedia....ult_Weapons_Ban

One problem may well be the recent SCOTUS cases in 2008 (Heller) and 2010 (McDonald) which seem to have restricted permissible gun control legislation.

The other problem is the powerful gun lobby.
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#657 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:28 PM

One problem may well be the recent SCOTUS cases in 2008 (Heller) and 2010 (McDonald) which seem to have restricted permissible gun control legislation.

Indeed those cases will have an impact when it comes to criteria other judges use to hear future cases but given the increasingly polarised and politicised nature of the judicial branch I wouldn't be surprised if stare decisis is not employed to overrule those decisions.

The other problem is the powerful gun lobby.

There is a very prominent gun control lobby as well, would you suggest they are a problem too?\

I sure would.

The amount of sway lobbies have in general is an enormous problem that places private interests above individual liberty.

Edited by zaibatsu, 16 December 2012 - 07:29 PM.

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#658 Tearloch7

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:40 PM

42+ plus years later, and the "gun" still seems the best "solution" ..



The more things change ..
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#659 Electro Rock

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:49 PM

It isn't the government you need to worry about. It's the Lanzas, McVeighs, Harris', etc.


The Oklahoma city bombing was suspicious, as was 9-11 with its terrorists passports managing to survive the crash, collapse and fires and the rest.

Among other, how was McVeigh the yokel able to construct such a huge and effective IED without training like that?

If it were that easy to do you'd see everybody from the Hills have Eyes Militia to the Mexican Cartels building them, instead of just a few elite terrorist groups with world class bomb makers like Hizballah or the IRA.


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#660 canuck_trevor16

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

sad that one of the victim was from Winninpeg so technically a Canadian was killed? She just transferred from another school...really sad
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