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Portland and Seattle as hockey markets.


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#1 Kamero89

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:50 PM

These two cities are clearly the best kept secret in the hockey world. The Portland Winterhawks have even led the entire CHL in attendance a few times. Seattle has led the WHL in attendance themselves.

To call them a "non traditional hockey market", is flat out wrong. Their first hockey teams, pre date team in Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, and most of central Canada. Their first pro teams pre date all american teams expect 2 (New York, and Chicago).

The Rose Garden in Portland, was built the same time as GM Place, and has roughly the same attendance. 50 Canucks games are televised in Portland every year, on their local sports network (pretty much there Sportsnet).

Seattle does not have a team for good reason, no arena. They are in the process of getting a new arena, and hopefully will get a team.

Teams in these markets, will be a HUGE benefit for the Canucks. We'd have team's where our fans could actually make a trip to watch them, and be back in the same day. 1500 Whitecaps fans go to Portland and Seattle for a game. Imagine how many Canucks fans would go. Not to mention the instant rivalry with these teams.
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#2 canucklax

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:02 PM

When did seattle lead the dub in attendance? I've been to several games at Showare and lets just say seats are available, for good reason though the team is horribly managed


On topic: I agree both would be good markets for an NHL team to relocate to, with Seattle probably having the stronger hockey market with rinks ranging from Tacoma to Everett, while Portland has an arena and less teams to compete against with no NFL or major NCAA program in the city
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#3 surtur

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:44 AM

would love to see both get a team as long as the Q gets one also.
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#4 Markus Alexander Cody

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:14 AM

Quebec would need one first for them to be considered relocation or expansion.
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#5 Russ

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:57 AM

These two cities are clearly the best kept secret in the hockey world. The Portland Winterhawks have even led the entire CHL in attendance a few times. Seattle has led the WHL in attendance themselves.

To call them a "non traditional hockey market", is flat out wrong. Their first hockey teams, pre date team in Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, and most of central Canada. Their first pro teams pre date all american teams expect 2 (New York, and Chicago).

The Rose Garden in Portland, was built the same time as GM Place, and has roughly the same attendance. 50 Canucks games are televised in Portland every year, on their local sports network (pretty much there Sportsnet).

Seattle does not have a team for good reason, no arena. They are in the process of getting a new arena, and hopefully will get a team.

Teams in these markets, will be a HUGE benefit for the Canucks. We'd have team's where our fans could actually make a trip to watch them, and be back in the same day. 1500 Whitecaps fans go to Portland and Seattle for a game. Imagine how many Canucks fans would go. Not to mention the instant rivalry with these teams.

Soccer and hockey fans are different. The fact there are alot less soccer games helps the travel and the southsiders are a great group of guys to travel with. That being said I think both markets would be excellent for hockey compared to where teams are now.

They actually telecast Canucks in Portland? I never would have guessed that, wonder how many Portland people are Canucks fans then.
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#6 Boudrias

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 08:43 AM

Seattle is the place. New arena combined with NBA makes it a certainty. I still expect PHX to end up there if another team doesn't beat them. With Seattle in the Pacific Div can be Van-Seattle-SJ-LA-Anaheim! No more Calgary/Edmonton but the Oilers will be killer in a couple of years anyway. It would put Van into a single time zone for all divisional play.
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#7 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:40 PM

I swear all this feet dragging in Phoenix is damage control, and the team will move to Seattle or Quebec.

Despite everything showing Glendale is throwing money at the team, the potential buyer can't even confirm he has enough money or investors to buy the team.

Seattle would be a great city. It's a pity that Paul Allen is so pro-NBA and anti-NHL because the Rose Garden is already there and is ready to go.
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#8 vancanfan

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:47 AM

Seattle and Portland are too close together for the NHL to all of a sudden dispatch 2 teams there, and hope for the best.

Its time to make things right. Put a team in Seattle and one in Quebec City. Next up, Saskatoon and Kansas City.
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#9 canucklax

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:03 PM

Seattle and Portland are too close together for the NHL to all of a sudden dispatch 2 teams there, and hope for the best.

Its time to make things right. Put a team in Seattle and one in Quebec City. Next up, Saskatoon and Kansas City.


Seattle is a 2 and a half hour drive from Portland, plus it would beat going to too small of a market like Saskatoon or Kansas city where there is no hockey(also very close to St. Louis)
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#10 vancanfan

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:38 PM

Seattle is a 2 and a half hour drive from Portland, plus it would beat going to too small of a market like Saskatoon or Kansas city where there is no hockey(also very close to St. Louis)


Kansas City and St Louis are 4 hours apart, not 2 and a half hours like Portland and Seattle.There would be more seat sales in any Canadian city than Portland or Seattle or Kansas City, regalrdless of size. Canadians live for hockey, Americans do not.

Try again sport.

Edited by vancanfan, 31 December 2012 - 12:39 PM.

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#11 canucklax

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:16 PM

Kansas City and St Louis are 4 hours apart, not 2 and a half hours like Portland and Seattle.There would be more seat sales in any Canadian city than Portland or Seattle or Kansas City, regalrdless of size. Canadians live for hockey, Americans do not.

Try again sport.


Kansas City has no hockey, how are you going to sell tickets to a sport no one cares about there?

Yes canadians like hockey more, but the arena is Saskatoon only holds 15,000 which would require a sellout like when Winnipeg moved, but would also require tremendous corporate support and an owner wanting to move the team there. Plus the city has only 200k people, if the NHL is looking at markets that small, then its a joke. you can't just throw an NHL team into any Canadian city and have automatic success, it depends on a lot more than passion for the game, it depends on money.

Try again sport
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#12 avelanch

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:40 PM

Kansas City has no hockey, how are you going to sell tickets to a sport no one cares about there?

Yes canadians like hockey more, but the arena is Saskatoon only holds 15,000 which would require a sellout like when Winnipeg moved, but would also require tremendous corporate support and an owner wanting to move the team there. Plus the city has only 200k people, if the NHL is looking at markets that small, then its a joke. you can't just throw an NHL team into any Canadian city and have automatic success, it depends on a lot more than passion for the game, it depends on money.

Try again sport

260,000 in the metro saskatoon area, plus all the people that would be drawn in from cities within a 2.5 hour drive (regina, prince albert, humbolt, the battlefords, moose jaw, melfort, and even potentially lloydminster and swift current, both closer to 3 hours). as a saskatchewan native, i know first hand that they will travel longer distances than that on the regular to watch hockey (we would go to countless raiders away games when i was growing up, and not just on the weekend). adding in those cities you'd add 338k+ (200k, 35k, 6k, 16k, 33k, 6k, 27k, 15k) bringing the potential draw population to over 598k, comparable to winnipeg. and there are a large number of rich corporations in saskatchewan that would line up to support a team in sask.

Edited by avelanch, 31 December 2012 - 01:50 PM.

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#13 canucklax

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:53 PM

260,000 in the metro saskatoon area, plus all the people that would be drawn in from cities within a 2.5 hour drive (regina, prince albert, humbolt, the battlefords, moose jaw, melfort, and even potentially lloydminster and swift current, both closer to 3 hours). as a saskatchewan native, i know first hand that they will travel longer distances than that on the regular to watch hockey (we would go to countless raiders away games when i was growing up, and not just on the weekend). adding in those cities you'd add 338k+ (200k, 35k, 6k, 16k, 33k, 6k, 27k, 15k) bringing the potential draw population to over 598k, comparable to winnipeg. and there are a large number of rich corporations in saskatchewan that would line up to support a team in sask.


Maybe on a friday or saturday, how many can do 5 hours roundtrip plus the game on a week night? Plus if we are adding everyone within 2 and a half hours of driving, then every markets "draw population" increases as well
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#14 Baercheese

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:53 PM

KCMO has an AWESOME arena. It's only a matter of time before they get professional teams to play in there

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#15 canucklax

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:59 PM

Too bad all KC cares about is football
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#16 Baercheese

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:12 PM

Too bad all KC cares about is football

This is KC Missouri

And it's the 3rd busiest arena in the states, without a professional team.

Edited by Sven Baertschi, 31 December 2012 - 02:14 PM.

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#17 vancanfan

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:29 PM

Kansas City has no hockey, how are you going to sell tickets to a sport no one cares about there?

Yes canadians like hockey more, but the arena is Saskatoon only holds 15,000 which would require a sellout like when Winnipeg moved, but would also require tremendous corporate support and an owner wanting to move the team there. Plus the city has only 200k people, if the NHL is looking at markets that small, then its a joke. you can't just throw an NHL team into any Canadian city and have automatic success, it depends on a lot more than passion for the game, it depends on money.

Try again sport


You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

You don't hear about mulit-millionaire Toronto businessman John Graham talking about putting a team in Seattle or Portland, do you?

Why wouldn't he if these locales are supposedly going to be successful right off the hop?

Raliegh has only 400,000 and sells well, its in North Carolina, where half the population doesn't even know there is a team there.

Credit Union Cente can be expanded anytime, it was built with that in mind.

You talk abut throwing a team into any Canadian city not having success, do you have any studies to back this claim up?

Didn't think so.
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#18 vancanfan

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:30 PM

KCMO has an AWESOME arena. It's only a matter of time before they get professional teams to play in there

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KCMO has an AWESOME arena. It's only a matter of time before they get professional teams to play in there

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I spent 2 days in KC in the summer of 2010, and checked this place out, it was closed but I walked around, this place is incredible on the ouside and right next to the power and light district, an area about 4 square blocks and all bars and restaurants.

Edited by vancanfan, 31 December 2012 - 02:31 PM.

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#19 canucklax

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:07 PM

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

You don't hear about mulit-millionaire Toronto businessman John Graham talking about putting a team in Seattle or Portland, do you?

Why wouldn't he if these locales are supposedly going to be successful right off the hop?

Raliegh has only 400,000 and sells well, its in North Carolina, where half the population doesn't even know there is a team there.

Credit Union Cente can be expanded anytime, it was built with that in mind.

You talk abut throwing a team into any Canadian city not having success, do you have any studies to back this claim up?

Didn't think so.


Carolina was 21st in attendance, and even lower (26th)if you rank by percentage of seats sold, so cool story but false http://en.wikipedia....endance_figures

My point about Canadian cities is that you need more than just the "passion for the game" the other poster talked about to have success, you need corporate sponsorship, strong ownership and a large enough market to sell to, 200k is not big enough, and even adding in people who occasionally would make a trip in from a different city is quite limited in terms of how consistent and how much they would contribute to the revenue stream.

I'm not saying canadian cities can't be successful, but they would need to be cities like QC not Sask

Saskatoon's viability as a market is heavily dependent on how Winnipeg does in the long run(7+ years) to see how big of a drop off occurs in attendance and revenue when the new car smell is gone on the franchise

Also 1 millionaire wanting to put a team somewhere is nothing new, lots of rich people want toys close to home, for example Chris Hansen who is the guy behind the Seattle arena deal that when completed will be made to be top of the line by both NBA and NHL standards
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#20 stawns

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:27 PM

These two cities are clearly the best kept secret in the hockey world. The Portland Winterhawks have even led the entire CHL in attendance a few times. Seattle has led the WHL in attendance themselves.

To call them a "non traditional hockey market", is flat out wrong. Their first hockey teams, pre date team in Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, and most of central Canada. Their first pro teams pre date all american teams expect 2 (New York, and Chicago).

The Rose Garden in Portland, was built the same time as GM Place, and has roughly the same attendance. 50 Canucks games are televised in Portland every year, on their local sports network (pretty much there Sportsnet).

Seattle does not have a team for good reason, no arena. They are in the process of getting a new arena, and hopefully will get a team.

Teams in these markets, will be a HUGE benefit for the Canucks. We'd have team's where our fans could actually make a trip to watch them, and be back in the same day. 1500 Whitecaps fans go to Portland and Seattle for a game. Imagine how many Canucks fans would go. Not to mention the instant rivalry with these teams.


having played for Portland, I can tell you that it is a hockey mad market. I'd have n o trouble believeing that they could support an NHL team. That said, I don't see it happening because the Winterhawks are so engrained in their hockey culture and I can't ever see them giving up the WH.
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#21 Provost

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:50 PM

Naturally as a Vancouver fan I would love to see a Seattle team... we could be playing an Amtrak series with a lot of fans either taking the train, bus or car down as visitors to see their team in an opposing rink.

Likely you could travel, spend a night in a hotel and see a game down there for the same price as tickets here.
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#22 Boudrias

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:04 PM

Carolina was 21st in attendance, and even lower (26th)if you rank by percentage of seats sold, so cool story but false http://en.wikipedia....endance_figures

My point about Canadian cities is that you need more than just the "passion for the game" the other poster talked about to have success, you need corporate sponsorship, strong ownership and a large enough market to sell to, 200k is not big enough, and even adding in people who occasionally would make a trip in from a different city is quite limited in terms of how consistent and how much they would contribute to the revenue stream.

I'm not saying canadian cities can't be successful, but they would need to be cities like QC not Sask

Saskatoon's viability as a market is heavily dependent on how Winnipeg does in the long run(7+ years) to see how big of a drop off occurs in attendance and revenue when the new car smell is gone on the franchise

Also 1 millionaire wanting to put a team somewhere is nothing new, lots of rich people want toys close to home, for example Chris Hansen who is the guy behind the Seattle arena deal that when completed will be made to be top of the line by both NBA and NHL standards

Seattle: will be a go because it is a major USA media market and the arena deal is done. It being so close to Van is another plus.
Portland: would be a real possibility if there was local interest and if Seattle is successfull.
KC: No one remember the Scouts? It ain't working unless major attitudes have c=hanged.
Saskatoon: the way Saskatchewan is growing it could happen in 10 - 15 years. Does not compliment the NHL business plan.
QC: that sad sack province cannot run their own municpalities let alone attract an NHL team. Any hiccup in the economy would sink a team there faster than the house of cards it is.
TO (V2): Next to Seattle the most likely candidate for an expansion team. A new franchise there could easily bring $350 - $400 mil to the NHL owners. A nice pick me up from another lost season. TO, Montreal and Van are the only Canadian cities with any USA appeal.
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#23 avelanch

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:48 PM

Maybe on a friday or saturday, how many can do 5 hours roundtrip plus the game on a week night? Plus if we are adding everyone within 2 and a half hours of driving, then every markets "draw population" increases as well

saskatchewan fans always are willing to travel. we would go to away games from prince albert to saskatoon all the time and a number of times to moose jaw, regina, humbolt, etc., in the middle of the week, on a school night, no problem. i think you are underestimating the will of the prairie fans to travel. it's nothing like spoiled metropolis commuters who feel like the world will end if they travel for more than 45 min in any direction...
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#24 avelanch

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:53 PM

Carolina was 21st in attendance, and even lower (26th)if you rank by percentage of seats sold, so cool story but false http://en.wikipedia....endance_figures

My point about Canadian cities is that you need more than just the "passion for the game" the other poster talked about to have success, you need corporate sponsorship, strong ownership and a large enough market to sell to, 200k is not big enough, and even adding in people who occasionally would make a trip in from a different city is quite limited in terms of how consistent and how much they would contribute to the revenue stream.

I'm not saying canadian cities can't be successful, but they would need to be cities like QC not Sask

Saskatoon's viability as a market is heavily dependent on how Winnipeg does in the long run(7+ years) to see how big of a drop off occurs in attendance and revenue when the new car smell is gone on the franchise

Also 1 millionaire wanting to put a team somewhere is nothing new, lots of rich people want toys close to home, for example Chris Hansen who is the guy behind the Seattle arena deal that when completed will be made to be top of the line by both NBA and NHL standards

i personally know 23 people who still live in prince albert that would buy full season tickets to a NHL team in saskatoon... it would not just be "occasional game" fans from cities outside of the toon.

i do agree that the nhl will wait to see how winnipeg does first before having a team in sask though.

Edited by avelanch, 31 December 2012 - 10:55 PM.

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#25 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:54 PM

LOL. Saskatoon. AHL probably, NHL, no way.
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#26 lx Birdie xl

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:42 AM

Stoon rider fans drive to Regina for games and then back that night. If I wasnt a 7 hour drive away I would hit up as many games as possible.
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#27 bd71

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:12 AM

Naturally as a Vancouver fan I would love to see a Seattle team... we could be playing an Amtrak series with a lot of fans either taking the train, bus or car down as visitors to see their team in an opposing rink.

Likely you could travel, spend a night in a hotel and see a game down there for the same price as tickets here.


That's incentive for an owner to put a team in a new city. Cheap tickets so fans from a team 3 hours away can come three times a year?? I'm not sold at all on Seattle. Markham (northeast of Toronto) is trying to build a 20,000 seat arena and that is way more viable than Seattle.
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#28 Boudrias

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:13 AM

That's incentive for an owner to put a team in a new city. Cheap tickets so fans from a team 3 hours away can come three times a year?? I'm not sold at all on Seattle. Markham (northeast of Toronto) is trying to build a 20,000 seat arena and that is way more viable than Seattle.

Viable from a gate receipt perspective but not from a media sales perspective. It will be bad enough when PHX finally gets moved but I am sure the NHL will have to promise another major USA media market like Seattle as compensation. TO (2) would be hughly successful financially none the less. It might not attract USA viewers as much as a USA city but it would be a safe bet for the NHL along with the hugh franchise fee they would split. The downside risk would be a watering down of the TO Laffers but who seriously cares about that. The downside risk to the Canucks and others might be that the Laffers would actually have to produce a winner to maintain profits. Novel idea.
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#29 zombieksa

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:38 PM

Seattle/Portland have two major advantages that I don't think cities like KC or LV have:
1. Proximity to Canada. Even the NHL recognizes the Canucks fans that travel to California and Arizona for games. Portland and Seattle would almost be guaranteed sell out games when Vancouver or Calgary came to town, let alone die-hard fans coming up from one of the Cali teams.
2. The MLS league is a great showing of what a 3 way rivalry in the Pacific NW can do for a league. Attendance numbers are fantastic for Van/Port/Sea

Combine these two advantages with already good minor league numbers and a past history of hockey support (not to mention one arena ready, one on the way) and I would put these two cities as #2 and #3 as most viable options behind QC.

I do think that southern ontario should have another team, not necessarily in toronto but even Hamilton, Kitchener, London. I just think that the league would be smart to expand the west in viable cities so to balance the league.
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#30 Boudrias

Boudrias

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:44 AM

Seattle/Portland have two major advantages that I don't think cities like KC or LV have:
1. Proximity to Canada. Even the NHL recognizes the Canucks fans that travel to California and Arizona for games. Portland and Seattle would almost be guaranteed sell out games when Vancouver or Calgary came to town, let alone die-hard fans coming up from one of the Cali teams.
2. The MLS league is a great showing of what a 3 way rivalry in the Pacific NW can do for a league. Attendance numbers are fantastic for Van/Port/Sea

Combine these two advantages with already good minor league numbers and a past history of hockey support (not to mention one arena ready, one on the way) and I would put these two cities as #2 and #3 as most viable options behind QC.

I do think that southern ontario should have another team, not necessarily in toronto but even Hamilton, Kitchener, London. I just think that the league would be smart to expand the west in viable cities so to balance the league.

I agree that the Seattle/Portland option has the best possibility, better than QC by far. Obviously there has to be interested parties in these cities. Seattle has a group already and QC as well. I suspect the medicore results of some USA franchises might make investors leery.

Canadian expansion or relocation has strong gate appeal but does nothing to support the NHL business plan of increasing media sales to USA TV. The NHL wants to build on their NBC contract of $2 billion over 10 years and Canadian teams on their TV has limited appeal. A ESPN contract would be 'gold' for the NHL. Once the new CBA is signed the NHL will have longevity and some cost certainty to negociate from. As a cost alternative to the NBA, MLB and NFL the NHL has an advantage.

The NHL has options in Canada of a team in QC which I object to for economic reasons and the obvious option of another team in Southern Ontario which would be a no brainer. S. Ontario wil be an expansion team as the franchise fee will be a hugh benefit to existing owners. The negative will be that it will hurt TO, Buffalo, Detroit maybe even the Sens. It will still happen.

In the mean time putting a team in Seattle and Van into the Pacific division is hugh for the Canucks. Same time zone and four teams within 3 hours travel time. Gotta happen!
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