Trading theory

[vcr1970]

I respect fans who care about and worship their teams, but I'd say that 75% of the fans in this forum are just delusional and just come online only to bash other peoples' opinions and suggestions.

Why is it that a Canucks player isn't dirty until he's traded to another team (e.g. Matt Cooke, Raffi Torres, Jarko Ruutu).

How come players become better the second they are traded to the Canucks but suck before that and also suck again once they leave (e.g. anyone signed/traded from Minnesota, Kyle Wellwood, Mats Sundin, Dan Cloutier, Bryan Allen, etc.).

If players try out for other teams they suck and are past their prime (e.g. Kovalev, Arnott), but if they try out for the Canucks they are worthwhile gambles.

We have a great talent pool in the minors (e.g. Hogdson, Schroeder, Fedorov), but the facts show they almost never end up playing for us and in most people's opinions' suck as soon as they are traded away (e.g. Hodson, Fedorov).

GM's are great while they are with the Canucks (e.g. Gillis) but suck once they leave (e.g. Burke, Nonis), even though Burke/Nonis are directly related to having the following players on the team:

H. Sedin

D. Sedin

Burrows

Kesler

Luongo

Schneider

Bieksa

Isn't this the core of the team? The entire first line, the center on the second line, one of the best defensemen and both of our "great" goalies?

Gillis is great, but he offered Mats Sundin $20 million over 2 years...........he let Willie Mitchell go (sorry, I forgot that Willie sucks now that he's with the Kings).............he traded for Ballard (but he's good and has a fair cap hit, right?)...........he resigned Mason Raymond, etc.

What has MG actually done on his own (e.g. other than resigning a player already on the roster) to be worthy of praise????

Also, beware of all of those rookie goalies who had great seasons in the recent past (e.g. Reimer, Mason) as those are flash in the pans, whereas Schneider is the real deal even though he was also a rookie goalie. He actually looks like he'll be great, but that's irrelevant because if he was on Toronto, Calgary or Montreal he would suck.

Am I wrong, or is this the feeling others get from this forum?

P.S. Luongo was good until everyone started liking Schneider better. Now he sucks unless we're talking about potential trades..........then he's an all-star goalie (that we don't want with a long-term contract for big $) with good credentials.

[Master Mind]

You make some good points. Although I must say that the majority on here tend to hate on Ballard, and that for Lu proposals, normally they're the other way around where he's being traded for peanuts.

And no, I didn't just come on here to bash as you may suggest, considering I agree with a lot of what you have to say.

[Gollumpus]

I respect fans who care about and worship their teams, but I'd say that 75% of the fans in this forum are just delusional and just come online only to bash other peoples' opinions and suggestions.

Why is it that a Canucks player isn't dirty until he's traded to another team (e.g. Matt Cooke, Raffi Torres, Jarko Ruutu).

How come players become better the second they are traded to the Canucks but suck before that and also suck again once they leave (e.g. anyone signed/traded from Minnesota, Kyle Wellwood, Mats Sundin, Dan Cloutier, Bryan Allen, etc.).

If players try out for other teams they suck and are past their prime (e.g. Kovalev, Arnott), but if they try out for the Canucks they are worthwhile gambles.

We have a great talent pool in the minors (e.g. Hogdson, Schroeder, Fedorov), but the facts show they almost never end up playing for us and in most people's opinions' suck as soon as they are traded away (e.g. Hodson, Fedorov).

GM's are great while they are with the Canucks (e.g. Gillis) but suck once they leave (e.g. Burke, Nonis), even though Burke/Nonis are directly related to having the following players on the team:

H. Sedin

D. Sedin

Burrows

Kesler

Luongo

Schneider

Bieksa

Isn't this the core of the team? The entire first line, the center on the second line, one of the best defensemen and both of our "great" goalies?

Gillis is great, but he offered Mats Sundin $20 million over 2 years...........he let Willie Mitchell go (sorry, I forgot that Willie sucks now that he's with the Kings).............he traded for Ballard (but he's good and has a fair cap hit, right?)...........he resigned Mason Raymond, etc.

What has MG actually done on his own (e.g. other than resigning a player already on the roster) to be worthy of praise????

Also, beware of all of those rookie goalies who had great seasons in the recent past (e.g. Reimer, Mason) as those are flash in the pans, whereas Schneider is the real deal even though he was also a rookie goalie. He actually looks like he'll be great, but that's irrelevant because if he was on Toronto, Calgary or Montreal he would suck.

Am I wrong, or is this the feeling others get from this forum?

P.S. Luongo was good until everyone started liking Schneider better. Now he sucks unless we're talking about potential trades..........then he's an all-star goalie (that we don't want with a long-term contract for big $) with good credentials.

[Rey]

What the OP has posted, has been happening since hockey existed and will continue to happen as long as Hockey or any sport exist.

This is frustrating, because there is so many things that can be said about this, but I don't want to spend too much time on this topic, despite just deleting a 1000 word response but figure no one would read it, anyways So, the shortest way to respond is to say:

Two Terms - Canuck Fan and Hockey fan. Once you accepted the difference, then you can go on with your life.

[Rey]

You make some good points. Although I must say that the majority on here tend to hate on Ballard, and that for Lu proposals, normally they're the other way around where he's being traded for peanuts.

And no, I didn't just come on here to bash as you may suggest, considering I agree with a lot of what you have to say.

[riffraff]

I just hope (though alas, why should I care?) that while a select few have been on these forums blowing smoke out if their collective asses in a hypothetical armchair world of one uppery, that maybe, just maybe they actually accomplished something tangible to the real world over the last few months.

Part of me almost wants to see Schneids dealt to Washington for ovechkin and dj king just to see If some resident avatars disappear and new ones reappear.

[G-52]

2 minutes ill never get back...

[riffraff]

Lol

[86Viking]

i agree, im not thoroughly impressed with gillis. Yes, he signed hamhuis which was good and stole booth higgins and erhoff. Its too be we let erhoff go if we knew we couldnt sign him to an extension, I hope we dont make the same mistake with edler.

I think the Sundin signing was horrid, imagine if he played 2 years...Also signing garrison for 4.6million for 6 years after having 1 season with 33 points, sorry but thats alot for a d man thats only proven that for 1 season. I think he will be a good addition and I was hoping we would sign him, but for around 3-3.5 million for 3 years.

I dont agree how he let kesler come back early when he was injured, he had an ineffective season due to being hurt. In doing so and not giving a proper opportunity for hodgson to play on the top 6, which i may add is what all the scouts and why he was drafted so high is because thats what he was projected to be a top six forward. They didnt even experiment with putting kesler on the wing, or making kesler with the twins a full time thing. To trade our only real nhl caliper young centerman for a winger was risky, now look at the situation we are in.

Dont like how gillis signed schneider to so much before he dealt Luongo. Every team in the nhl knows they dont have to pay a premium to get him, especially now with the new cba complications. So i really do feel Gillis dropped the ball handling this situation. I wish he never gave luongo a 12 year deal, I was all for resigning him but why not sign him for 6 years with a higher cap hit. He must have thought schneider would never be able to become a #1.

Letting Mitchell walk sucked aswell, I know he had some injury issues but he was a great pk and shutdown d man. Im sure he would have taking a shorter term deal to stay in vancouver. Who on our team now can handle the physical forwards that play against us? Bieksa i wouldnt say is shutdown caliber, Hamhuis is good two way d man, well rounded and solid in his own end but hes not as built as mitchell. Edler is offensive, Tanev is solid but hes not big enough to handle the big forwards, ballard well hes so under utilized our coach has ruined him, alberts is a good #7, garrison is the new guy so we shall see what he can do.

Unfortunately when playoffs come, our team cant score, we need to get a legit scoring forward who can score no matter what time of year it is. If we feel we cant sign edler, I would seriously consider trading him for a top 6 scoring forward.

overall Gillis has done ok, but i feel the way he handles luongo is gonna be a big factor. I think he does need to be traded before the season starts as all the media is just a distraction to whats going on, even though no one will admit it when every reporter asks you "how do you feel about luongo being here, is it a distraction to you or the team" When that gets asked to every player, coach in every interview that is gonna grow tiresome very fast.

also, i havent been sold on this coach, I do believe its time for a change, regular season success means nothing in my mind. Our team has a few years to seriously contend for a cup and he consistantly shows during the playoffs that he cant match up or change his teams playing style when the games are on the line. I think he needs to go this year unless we win the cup.

I hope Gillis improves our scoring touch, and if the team isnt going to pay high contract players IE: Luongo, Ballard then they should be traded to get assets we need, solid prospects and draft picks.

Now, drafting... this is a whole new ball game. I really feel we have a poor scouting team, like others have said, we never seem to draft from the WHL, we always draft a ton of swedes that ive seen very little recent success from. Who in our system has a good chance to crack our team and make an impact? There seems that we need to get some new faces into the scouting department, because hoe come other treams can get some great steals later in the draft and we rarely seem to get anyone who pans out in the gillis era. I mean 5 drafts now and 1 player has made the club and he was traded away.

If I had to give Gillis a grade it would be C+

And if he doesnt get a good return from Luongo and keeps Ballard and let the coach underutilize him and isnt able to sign edler or trade him for some significant scoring touch I feel that he and the coach coul dbe on the hot seat after this season is over if we have another poor showing.

No GM is perfect they have have some bad moves and great moves I just feel that MG is to comfortable with how the team sits and is lacking the ability to make that impact trade we need, kinda reminds me of Nonis. We needed scoring punch then and he couldnt get us that, so he got fired. Atleast Nonis got us Luongo. I dont think Gillis has made a trade close to that kind of an impact on the organization as of yet, time will tell

[thad]

Who's been s**t talkin Willie Mitchell?

[Visp]

what has Gillis done for us? 2x Presidents' Trophies consecutively and 1 game away from a Stanley Cup in the past 2 seasons alone... a team that is currently top 3 in most sports betting odds. Not a bad resume if you ask me.

[vcr1970]

ERIK, thanks for the response. I agree with most of your post, your grading of MG and the fact this Luongo deal will speak volumes about things. Hopefully it happens tonight or tomorrow!

Visp, I would say Burke/Nonis are more responsible for those President's trophies than MG. He didn't come in and change much of the line up he inherited before those trophy winning seasons, so BB and Dave Nonis are the ones who put those pieces in place.

It's like trying to blame Obama for the terrible US economy. He's the one that was in power when it occurred, but it was really Bush who wrecked things. Just because you're the figurehead when something goes good or bad, doesn't mean you're the person responsible for making it happen.

If you disagree with that philosophy then you have to think that BB is a better GM than MG as BB has 1 Stanley Cup to his name whereas MG has none. Many posters have pointed out that BB just won the cup because he inherited a great team, so why can't the same thing be said for MG inheriting a President's Trophy calibre team?

[shazzam]

- Signing Hamhuis (Even though it seemed like he had the Canucks in his crosshair)

- Acquisition of Ehrhoff was a steal

- 2yr/20mill offer to Sundin was insane but it didn't bite us in the end. Our players said they were able to learn alot from him.

- Scouting has been overrated but of course it takes years to see results

- Lets see how he handles this situation with Luongo. Big test for him

[Primal Optimist]

What has MG actually done on his own (e.g. other than resigning a player already on the roster) to be worthy of praise????

[stonecoldstevebernier]

He took over on April 23, 2008. it will be five years in about 3 months time. What has he done on his own? He managed to keep the great players, turn over the not so great, add some key peices to the group, maintain lockerroom balance and win two back to back presidents trophies while being a winning team and a playoff team in every season. His team made it to the semi's twice, the FINALS once..game 7 of the stanley cup finals...and then last year lost to the CUP CHAMPS.

What hasn't he done>? Sometimes you are judged not only by your actions, but by what you were wise enough to avoid.

EDIT: Also your list has 7 players on it. The team holds 23 and the system holds 50. So congrats Burke Nonis on 14% of the Canucks recent success.

[Primal Optimist]

yes, its just as skewed as asking what the GM of the last five years has done for the team that did so well during those five years, I agree and appreciate your reading comprehension.

[vcr1970]

I thought Nonis had drafted Hodgson, so if that was MG, kudos to him on that one. The trade that sent him away doesn't look all that good right now though.

He stole Erhoff from San Jose, but also let him get away and he was badly missed.

When you only win 1 game in the entire playoffs, I don't think you can find consolation in the fact you lost to the eventual Stanley Cup champs. Phoenix took a game from LA and NJ took two, so who's to say Vancouver could have beaten either of those teams.

[CanuckFan1981]

Totally agree with the OP. Totally agree with Canucks fan: Everybody sucks except Canuck players, minus the whipping boys (Raymond, Luongo, Bieksa, Ballard etc...) *sarcasm**

BB + DN deserve alot of credit for the core team that we have, as they obviously drafted and developed the players during their tenure. The new owner wanted to try something else to get over the hump (MG) and MG deserves alot of credit for keeping the core intact. Most GM's come into a new team and tear it apart to leave "their mark" on it. Sometime's a team needs the complete overhaul and sometimes not. The GM that doesn't tear apart the team and finds success deserves just as much credit as the GM that does make big changes and finds success. The measure is not how many trades and changes a GM makes, its how many Wins and Losses the GM's team makes. BB + DN assembled them team (thanks guys) and MG kept the pieces he liked and it has worked out for us (IMO). Credit all around. It is nice that we have had 3 good GM's in a row and have had 10 years of consecutively decent/ good and great teams.

[CanuckFan1981]

I thought Nonis had drafted Hodgson, so if that was MG, kudos to him on that one.  The trade that sent him away doesn't look all that good right now though.

He stole Erhoff from San Jose, but also let him get away and he was badly missed.

When you only win 1 game in the entire playoffs, I don't think you can find consolation in the fact you lost to the eventual Stanley Cup champs.  Phoenix took a game from LA and NJ took two, so who's to say Vancouver could have beaten either of those teams.

[Canuck Surfer]

So what is this trading theory I logged in to read about?

Do we need to add a rant, whinge and whine category to the board to accomodate posts like this?

I respect fans who care about and worship their teams, but I'd say that 75% of the fans in this forum are just delusional and just come online only to bash other peoples' opinions and suggestions.

Why is it that a Canucks player isn't dirty until he's traded to another team (e.g. Matt Cooke, Raffi Torres, Jarko Ruutu).

How come players become better the second they are traded to the Canucks but suck before that and also suck again once they leave (e.g. anyone signed/traded from Minnesota, Kyle Wellwood, Mats Sundin, Dan Cloutier, Bryan Allen, etc.).

If players try out for other teams they suck and are past their prime (e.g. Kovalev, Arnott), but if they try out for the Canucks they are worthwhile gambles.

We have a great talent pool in the minors (e.g. Hogdson, Schroeder, Fedorov), but the facts show they almost never end up playing for us and in most people's opinions' suck as soon as they are traded away (e.g. Hodson, Fedorov).

GM's are great while they are with the Canucks (e.g. Gillis) but suck once they leave (e.g. Burke, Nonis), even though Burke/Nonis are directly related to having the following players on the team:

H. Sedin

D. Sedin

Burrows

Kesler

Luongo

Schneider

Bieksa

Isn't this the core of the team? The entire first line, the center on the second line, one of the best defensemen and both of our "great" goalies?

Gillis is great, but he offered Mats Sundin $20 million over 2 years...........he let Willie Mitchell go (sorry, I forgot that Willie sucks now that he's with the Kings).............he traded for Ballard (but he's good and has a fair cap hit, right?)...........he resigned Mason Raymond, etc.

What has MG actually done on his own (e.g. other than resigning a player already on the roster) to be worthy of praise????

Also, beware of all of those rookie goalies who had great seasons in the recent past (e.g. Reimer, Mason) as those are flash in the pans, whereas Schneider is the real deal even though he was also a rookie goalie. He actually looks like he'll be great, but that's irrelevant because if he was on Toronto, Calgary or Montreal he would suck.

Am I wrong, or is this the feeling others get from this forum?

P.S. Luongo was good until everyone started liking Schneider better. Now he sucks unless we're talking about potential trades..........then he's an all-star goalie (that we don't want with a long-term contract for big $) with good credentials.