[Discussion] Juolevi+Center (Top 5 Pick) vs. Tkachuk+Liljegren

[Roger Neilsons Towel]

[Nucksfollower1983]

11 hours ago, The Lock said:

The very problem I've seen is people want instant gratification. They want things now and aren't willing to wait; yet, we've seen some of the best players develop over time into more than some might even expect (ie. the Sedins). If one doesn't have patience in this industry, then they might as well live in the hospital receiving constant ulcer operations.

dont forget Naslund and Bertuzzi whom pittsburgh and NYI gave up on, especially in the case of Naslund its viewed as one of teh most lopsided trades in the modern era

[wren223]

Um, one of them has played an NHL game. Only two of them are actually drafted. How about a little patience? Also, JB needs to draft based on what this team needs.

 

Tkachuk has had a really good season. He's taken a lot of penalties and also started to build a reputation as a dirty player. So that's some food for thought and maybe a little balance to the idea of Tkachuk vs Juolevi. However, Juolevi hasn't played in the NHL yey and is a ways away. So I'd rather be happy with what we have and address our other big need right now with a top line centre. I'm hoping the lottery goes our way and we stay number 2 overall. I'd hate to see us go backwards to fifth again.

[Phil_314]

In terms of priorities for the team I'd think Olli and the center would meet more immediate needs.  Getting a PP QB like Liljegren would be solid but we have a couple potential options already on the team in Stecher and Hutton (plus maybe Subban) so maybe that's not the most pressing issue to try and fix.  Olli has the potential to become an offensive guy himself anyways so there's that, plus it'd be great to have him around to stabilize the back end as a big minute guy.

Bowie Horvat's also realistically speaking our only surefire top-flight center available to build around at the moment (don't know what we have in Gaudette; Gaunce and Molino likely won't reach the same heights) so I'd say get the center first as winning teams are built up the middle and on the back end.  There will come a time to get an abrasive Tkachuk type but that's later on in the timeline when the team is ready to compete again.  

Having the growing stock of offensive wingers that we do (Sven, Granny, Brock, Boucher, Goldie plus maybe Jake and Dahlen) also lessens the need for more skill on the wings, though the grit is a definitely bonus.  Ultimately we can still scoop up skilled grit later on in the draft too (Lucic, Byfuglien, Marchand, Jamie Benn are just some of the examples of skilled sandpaper available in the 2nd round or later, and that holds true for Minnesota's behemoth Jordan Greenway).  If the team keeps stockpiling picks I'm sure they'd strike gold with some skilled, gritty winger and that would address the need.      

[IBatch]

21 hours ago, drummerboy said:

What about sticking with Juolevi, AND picking Liljegrin?  

 

Chances are we are going to be just as bad next year, and there are several franchise players in the next draft. 

 

We could have 2 potential number 1 defencmen.    One more D focused, and one more offence.  

Then what ever top pick forward we get next year.  

 

Building from the net out. 

I think we have our goalie in Demko. 

Juolevi and Liljegrin could end up as an all star pairing. 

Unless we have another MT situation and Patrick is available this is both a bold move and a wise one.  With an eye to the future no doubt.   

In the Canucks entire history we have not had a true top five defenseman ( in the league).  Jovo was probably the closest and for a couple years actually had the ability to affect the outcome of a game ( ie just take over) which was awesome to watch.

Reinhart was probably the closest thing we've had to a true offensive defenseman and we all know what Aucion did one year scoring over 20 most on the PP.  But Reinhart was here and gone, retiring still in his late prime and Aucion was far from a game changer although ended up servicable.

Lidster and Lumme had very good years but we're both second tier at best.  

 

So for the time being I will continue to hope a true super star or even star defenseman arrives and maybe that's Juolevi and maybe we do exactly what you suggest and in five years dominate defensively and our division....And have the next Pronger MacInnis or Nydermier Pronger or Weber Josi even....

[The Lock]

19 hours ago, Nucksfollower1983 said:

dont forget Naslund and Bertuzzi whom pittsburgh and NYI gave up on, especially in the case of Naslund its viewed as one of teh most lopsided trades in the modern era

Well, when it comes to Bertuzzi, that trade pales in comparison to the grand scheme of things of what Mike Milbury did. He traded away not only Bertuzzi, but also Chara, Jokinen, Luongo, McCabe, Osgood, Berard, Torres, etc. He literally traded away what could have arguably been a Stanley Cup contender of a team.

[DownUndaCanuck]

Hindsight is everything, but looking at the last few drafts REALISTICALLY, when we had the picks we had some tough decisions. Sure we're not going to get a Duncan Keith or anything like that, but there were lots of controversial picks the last few years. In terms of creating a core (decent two-way centers, top-6 wingers, star D-men, goalies)

 

I think it starts with 2012.

 

 

2012 - Drafted Gaunce 26th overall. Tanner Pearson was taken 4 spots later and must have been on our list. Not many teams picked Pearson to be as good as he's been and we didn't mess up that pick at all, Gaunce is probably the right pick again. 3-4th line center hopefully, good PKer, big body. Happy with Gaunce. Not a core guy but a good tertiary center.

 

2013 - 9th overall pick, we take Horvat. I think with Morin/Domi/everyone else taken after him, Horvat was 100% the right guy. Foundational player and perfect core piece for a Cup contending team.

 

2013 - 24th overall pick, we take Shinkaruk. Slated to be a top-6 scorer, but I wanted Shea Theodore with this pick. Sure Shinkaruk didn't pan out, ends up turning into Granlund who in himself is a two-way 20 goal scoring small forward, but Shea Theodore was our chance at a real decent puck moving defenceman.

 

2014 - 6th overall, Canucks take Jake Virtanen. Biggest mistake in our last decade IMO, but lets not go into that. The plan was to get one of those top-6 wingers who can play physically. Nice idea, terrible scouting. He only ever hit a point per game in the WHL which is woeful, many players do, and coming off a shoulder injury we should have known. Big mistake was leaving Nick Ritchie - a bigger and stronger powerforward who's doing more in the NHL now than Jake ever will. That comes 100% down to drafting and scouting. Ehlers and Nylander were more skilled point producers but JB wanted grit and size, and he picked the wrong player straight up. In terms of building our core though, he went for the right type of piece, just didn't get the right guy.

 

2014 - 24th overall pick, Canucks take McCann. At the time I loved the pick, scouting-wise we did well and he could have been a gem but we broke him developmentally by rushing him into the NHL. Should have gone back to junior then a year in the AHL at least with his frame. Taken the next pick? Pastrnak. Big miss by the Canucks and again that comes down to the Bruins doing some great scouting. 

 

2015 - 23rd overall, Canucks take Brock Boeser. At this point in the Canucks timeline we didn't need another winger or forward, we desperately needed a quality defenceman. We passed up on several top-2 D-men in the last 3 drafts and did so again, leaving Jeremy Roy on the table, but Boeser was a quality find and great pick, lets just hope we don't ruin his development to but that's for next year to decide.

 

2016 - Canucks take Juolevi 5th overall. Finally a defenceman, and most likely the right defenceman to take. Of course we leave guys like Tkachuk on the table, Keller and Jost, but we had our centers at this point and JB was dealing with a bit of a mess.

 

 

To be fair it's hard to build a core amongst two separate GMs, but in the ideal world we would have done this:

 

2012 - Gaunce

2013 - Horvat

2013 - Shea Theodore

2014 - William Nylander/Ritchie

2014 - Pastrnak

2015 - Boeser

2016 - Keller

2017 - Makar/Liljegren

 

Baertschi - Keller - Pastrnak

Nylander/Ritchie - Horvat - Boeser

Goldobin - Sutter - ?
Dahlen - Gaunce - ?

 

Theodore - Makar

Sbisa - Stecher

Tryamkin - Subban/UFA

 

 

Of those draftees, we get our 1st line scoring center (Keller), 2nd line shutdown center (Horvat), 3 decent top-6 wingers, could take a powerforward in Ritchie over Nylander, two star defencemen.

 

These aren't farfetched picks. They're guys taken immediately after our own Canuck picks. Just shows the bad drafting and scouting that's been going on. We could have a loaded team right now. Instead we've picked the wrong guy almost every time.