JM_ Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/trans-mountain-pipeline-ndp-1.4241796 So Horgan his hired a lawyer to come up with options to stop the KM expansion... I wonder how much of our tax dollars he'll spend on ensuring we make no money from this project? I know it was part of his mandate, but man I wish he was spending this on job creation vs. trying to stop something that he doesn't have the jurisdiction to stop. Its lawyer theatre on our dime that will just be wasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 6 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/trans-mountain-pipeline-ndp-1.4241796 So Horgan his hired a lawyer to come up with options to stop the KM expansion... I wonder how much of our tax dollars he'll spend on ensuring we make no money from this project? I know it was part of his mandate, but man I wish he was spending this on job creation vs. trying to stop something that he doesn't have the jurisdiction to stop. Its lawyer theatre on our dime that will just be wasted. I don't agree. The feds (and other interested parties) feeling like they can just barrel through this province despite what the people here may want needs to be challenged. It sends a message that it isn't going to be easy to impose decisions upon us. We wouldn't have to spend on job creation if we took care of our own a bit more and ensured that these overseas investors didn't bring over their own workforce as part of the deal. Many jobs have been "promised"...but to whom? Creating jobs that are never intended for our workforce certainly isn't benefiting us as much as it should be. I am no expert, but I want OUR interests in the forefront...not sure other provinces or countries have that at heart. What about the tourism industry? Fishing? We're developing waterfront property for the rich as their playground...will they pay for a tanker disaster? Track records in relation to clean up aren't great. This is pristine territory. I don't want a roll over and die leader and I don't trust the feds to look after our best interests out here on the West Coast. $$$ That's what matters to most and sure, money's important...but not at all costs. It was part of his mandate...and I'm glad to see he's keeping true to his word and not back pedalling as many do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 44 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/trans-mountain-pipeline-ndp-1.4241796 So Horgan his hired a lawyer to come up with options to stop the KM expansion... I wonder how much of our tax dollars he'll spend on ensuring we make no money from this project? I know it was part of his mandate, but man I wish he was spending this on job creation vs. trying to stop something that he doesn't have the jurisdiction to stop. Its lawyer theatre on our dime that will just be wasted. The lawyer is actually only to look at options not necessarily to stop it. Note their comments about In July, Eby said the NDP government was exploring its options to halt the project, but had ruled out artificially delaying permits. The minister said doing so would put the province at risk for a costly lawsuit from Trans Mountain, a subsidiary of Kinder Morgan Canada. "We'll end up paying hundreds of millions of dollars that should be going to schools and hospitals to an oil company," Eby said. I told you unequivocally they're going to allow this without much question. But putting up a token fight allows them the appearance of fighting it while allowing the first nations members and special interest groups actually do the leg work on the legal side. if they win so be it, if they don't all the better for Horgan As well, and this is something I cannot stress enough. STOP RELYING ON OR PRETENDING THAT THE GOVERNMENT CREATES JOBS. That is the avenue and property of private businesses. If they are not investing or spending and not creating jobs or hiring that is not the fault of the government. The only way the government creates jobs is via union hires to the public sector that cost us taxpayers in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, Warhippy said: As well, and this is something I cannot stress enough. STOP RELYING ON OR PRETENDING THAT THE GOVERNMENT CREATES JOBS. That is the avenue and property of private businesses. If they are not investing or spending and not creating jobs or hiring that is not the fault of the government. The only way the government creates jobs is via union hires to the public sector that cost us taxpayers in the long run. Or, removing barriers to business, whether excessive taxes or regulations. But in general, you are right on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 6 minutes ago, Kragar said: Or, removing barriers to business, whether excessive taxes or regulations. But in general, you are right on. No see that's the fallacy Lowering taxes on business invariably means raising taxes on individuals or fees on services which in effect is a poor counterbalance when profits are at all time highs vs wages that are at all time lows in comparison. Endlessly pandering to business in hopes they'll create 200-500-1000 jobs is a terrible way to be successful. It inevitably costs the taxpayer no matter what. If businesses cannot exist or grow without tax breaks or subsidization from governments than they are not well run businesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Just now, Warhippy said: No see that's the fallacy Lowering taxes on business invariably means raising taxes on individuals or fees on services which in effect is a poor counterbalance when profits are at all time highs vs wages that are at all time lows in comparison. Endlessly pandering to business in hopes they'll create 200-500-1000 jobs is a terrible way to be successful. It inevitably costs the taxpayer no matter what. If businesses cannot exist or grow without tax breaks or subsidization from governments than they are not well run businesses. That's why I qualified it with the word "excessive". I understand that just dropping rates (and I don't know what they are in BC, so not sure if they need lowering or not) will automatically make it better. But if taxes or unnecessary regulations like some licensing fees are lowered, that gives businesses (especially small business) the opportunity invest more in themselves and hire more people. From the government's perspective, a drop in a tax rate doesn't automatically require raising taxes or fees for another sector. If a business expands to hire more people, ideally their income can increase, alleviating some of the loss in a corp tax rate cut. More important is you have more people employed, and using less UI, welfare, or other social services. There's a balance to be had. What you said might well be correct for BC now, I don't know... my statement was more of a general comment. Or, what would apply here in CA today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said: I don't agree. The feds (and other interested parties) feeling like they can just barrel through this province despite what the people here may want needs to be challenged. It sends a message that it isn't going to be easy to impose decisions upon us. We wouldn't have to spend on job creation if we took care of our own a bit more and ensured that these overseas investors didn't bring over their own workforce as part of the deal. Many jobs have been "promised"...but to whom? Creating jobs that are never intended for our workforce certainly isn't benefiting us as much as it should be. I am no expert, but I want OUR interests in the forefront...not sure other provinces or countries have that at heart. What about the tourism industry? Fishing? We're developing waterfront property for the rich as their playground...will they pay for a tanker disaster? Track records in relation to clean up aren't great. This is pristine territory. I don't want a roll over and die leader and I don't trust the feds to look after our best interests out here on the West Coast. $$$ That's what matters to most and sure, money's important...but not at all costs. It was part of his mandate...and I'm glad to see he's keeping true to his word and not back pedalling as many do.... I actually agree with all of that. But the jurisdiction is federal, and when it comes down to it not even first nations can't stop it according to the supreme court. We have the technology and the quality systems in place to do it safely, the question is - will they? Under Harper I would have said absolutely not. Under the Liberals I think there is a very good chance that it can be done right, they seem to be committed to safety far more than Harper ever was. One of the reasons I now lean to supporting the KM expansion is where it is - in Burnaby, in a very industrial area, thats also highly controllable, totally unlike the pristine north coast. By allowing 1 tanker per day, which is all it will be, we can get nearly 1 billion in new marine safety systems to help protect the rest of the coast. Don't forget that there are about 30 other large ships in the area each day, and we have nothing in place e.g., to deal with even a small spill of bunker fuel. We are already a major risk of damage with no recourse. So say e.g., a standard oil tanker that is currently refuelled about once per week out of Burnaby cracks open in English Bay, we're screwed because we have literally nothing to go deal with it as it stands today, and to me that puts us in a situation where we are already at the risk you are talking about. So, I see it as a compromise worth taking to get that marine safety system in place. And it can't just be a promise, it has to be built before they can start sending those tankers in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Kragar said: That's why I qualified it with the word "excessive". I understand that just dropping rates (and I don't know what they are in BC, so not sure if they need lowering or not) will automatically make it better. But if taxes or unnecessary regulations like some licensing fees are lowered, that gives businesses (especially small business) the opportunity invest more in themselves and hire more people. From the government's perspective, a drop in a tax rate doesn't automatically require raising taxes or fees for another sector. If a business expands to hire more people, ideally their income can increase, alleviating some of the loss in a corp tax rate cut. More important is you have more people employed, and using less UI, welfare, or other social services. There's a balance to be had. What you said might well be correct for BC now, I don't know... my statement was more of a general comment. Or, what would apply here in CA today Well, we've seen the "dropping of taxes" in BC over the last 16 years only to enjoy higher small business taxes and increased fees and taxes for people/services BC now is top 3 in debt per capita, some of the lowest wages, highest costs of living and highest rates of poverty per capita in the country. Balance is coming but some are sure not going to like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Warhippy said: The lawyer is actually only to look at options not necessarily to stop it. Note their comments about In July, Eby said the NDP government was exploring its options to halt the project, but had ruled out artificially delaying permits. The minister said doing so would put the province at risk for a costly lawsuit from Trans Mountain, a subsidiary of Kinder Morgan Canada. "We'll end up paying hundreds of millions of dollars that should be going to schools and hospitals to an oil company," Eby said. I told you unequivocally they're going to allow this without much question. But putting up a token fight allows them the appearance of fighting it while allowing the first nations members and special interest groups actually do the leg work on the legal side. if they win so be it, if they don't all the better for Horgan As well, and this is something I cannot stress enough. STOP RELYING ON OR PRETENDING THAT THE GOVERNMENT CREATES JOBS. That is the avenue and property of private businesses. If they are not investing or spending and not creating jobs or hiring that is not the fault of the government. The only way the government creates jobs is via union hires to the public sector that cost us taxpayers in the long run. I just see that as wasted funds, there won't be any options the SCoC hasn't considered that would be any more powerful than whats been reviewed before. The government has three ways to "create jobs" for lack of a better term and all of them cost the taxpayer but one is much more efficient: by doing what you said and grow the public sector, by doing things like ramping up debt using large contractual obligations (Clark did lots of that, so will Horgan) or through incentivizing industries with things like targeted tax breaks or other kinds of targeted funding, or providing land, etc. Gov't can set a tone for investment like AB does by having low tax rates, which seems to be the best thing yet to attract head offices at least. I don't think gov't should be relied on, but they can make things easier. What makes tax breaks the best option is a company has to be profitable before they kick in, the other 2 just cost us with no guarantee of a return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 18 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Well, we've seen the "dropping of taxes" in BC over the last 16 years only to enjoy higher small business taxes and increased fees and taxes for people/services BC now is top 3 in debt per capita, some of the lowest wages, highest costs of living and highest rates of poverty per capita in the country. Balance is coming but some are sure not going to like it I believe it. Housing in the LM is out of control, and I'm not surprised if that is only the tip of the iceberg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 25 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Well, we've seen the "dropping of taxes" in BC over the last 16 years only to enjoy higher small business taxes and increased fees and taxes for people/services BC now is top 3 in debt per capita, some of the lowest wages, highest costs of living and highest rates of poverty per capita in the country. Balance is coming but some are sure not going to like it but Hip, corporate taxes couldn't be raised high enough to deal with all those things, you know that. You can't put that all on corporate tax rates. The poverty numbers are a bit misleading and depending on the source BC is not the highest. I'm not saying there's anything to cheerlead about but child poverty is a national issue and provincial rates are roughly the same (http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/provincial/society/poverty.aspx) I'm not sure where the "balance" is going to come from that you're talking about. Horgans 90,000 construction jobs are all going to be debt-driven so we're going to pay for those eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 18 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: but Hip, corporate taxes couldn't be raised high enough to deal with all those things, you know that. You can't put that all on corporate tax rates. The poverty numbers are a bit misleading and depending on the source BC is not the highest. I'm not saying there's anything to cheerlead about but child poverty is a national issue and provincial rates are roughly the same (http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/provincial/society/poverty.aspx) I'm not sure where the "balance" is going to come from that you're talking about. Horgans 90,000 construction jobs are all going to be debt-driven so we're going to pay for those eventually. Horgans numbers will be debt driven So...what were the Liberals with an almost $40 billion increase in BC's debt over 16 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 20 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Horgans numbers will be debt driven So...what were the Liberals with an almost $40 billion increase in BC's debt over 16 years? the same on that front. The difference is that they weren't looking to stop projects too. Its one thing to be against things politically, but to actually hire a lawyer... sends the wrong message to major investors about planning to come here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 8 hours ago, Warhippy said: No see that's the fallacy Lowering taxes on business invariably means raising taxes on individuals or fees on services which in effect is a poor counterbalance when profits are at all time highs vs wages that are at all time lows in comparison. Endlessly pandering to business in hopes they'll create 200-500-1000 jobs is a terrible way to be successful. It inevitably costs the taxpayer no matter what. If businesses cannot exist or grow without tax breaks or subsidization from governments than they are not well run businesses. I recall you knocking Bernier however your comment there was his main policy/platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 9 hours ago, Warhippy said: The lawyer is actually only to look at options not necessarily to stop it. Note their comments about In July, Eby said the NDP government was exploring its options to halt the project, but had ruled out artificially delaying permits. The minister said doing so would put the province at risk for a costly lawsuit from Trans Mountain, a subsidiary of Kinder Morgan Canada. "We'll end up paying hundreds of millions of dollars that should be going to schools and hospitals to an oil company," Eby said. I told you unequivocally they're going to allow this without much question. But putting up a token fight allows them the appearance of fighting it while allowing the first nations members and special interest groups actually do the leg work on the legal side. if they win so be it, if they don't all the better for Horgan As well, and this is something I cannot stress enough. STOP RELYING ON OR PRETENDING THAT THE GOVERNMENT CREATES JOBS. That is the avenue and property of private businesses. If they are not investing or spending and not creating jobs or hiring that is not the fault of the government. The only way the government creates jobs is via union hires to the public sector that cost us taxpayers in the long run. OMG we finally agree. +1 @S'all Good Man is a socialist it's shocking he supported CC and the liars so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 6 hours ago, Warhippy said: Horgans numbers will be debt driven So...what were the Liberals with an almost $40 billion increase in BC's debt over 16 years? But you knock the Liberals for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 11, 2017 Author Share Posted August 11, 2017 "‘You never know’: Former Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts mulling BC Liberal leadership run" (http://globalnews.ca/news/3656000/you-never-know-former-surrey-mayor-dianne-watts-mulling-bc-liberal-leadership-run/) @Warhippy see, told you this would pop up. I do think she'd make things uncomfortable for Horgan. Certainly any close ridings in the valley and on the Island and rural BC would be in play again. Strong on business, innovation, transit, crime... could be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 3 hours ago, S'all Good Man said: "‘You never know’: Former Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts mulling BC Liberal leadership run" (http://globalnews.ca/news/3656000/you-never-know-former-surrey-mayor-dianne-watts-mulling-bc-liberal-leadership-run/) @Warhippy see, told you this would pop up. I do think she'd make things uncomfortable for Horgan. Certainly any close ridings in the valley and on the Island and rural BC would be in play again. Strong on business, innovation, transit, crime... could be interesting. Lol lol She's too tied to Harper and pissed off the immigrants. BC will not accept a conservative as a liberal. She'll win the usual seats in the gvrd and north east but that's about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 12, 2017 Author Share Posted August 12, 2017 33 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Lol lol She's too tied to Harper and pissed off the immigrants. BC will not accept a conservative as a liberal. She'll win the usual seats in the gvrd and north east but that's about it we'll see... i think you're under valuing her ability to appeal to the rural folks and on the island Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DADDYROCK Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 As a lifelong British Columbian I don't remember voting to see our coast devastated by the oil companies, they just take the money and run when disasters happen like the Polly Lake mining tragedy.We don't need fracking or billion dollar power plants either. It's time to step to the future ,to pollution reducing not increasing.Lets help the only planet we have for our home. IT MIGHT ALREADY BE TOO LATE, BUT IF WE START NOW OUR KIDS AND GRAND KIDS MIGHT HAVE A CHANCE OF SURVIVAL. SMARTEN UP YOU 1%. YOUR GREED CAN'T SUSTAIN LIFE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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