BC Electoral Reform Referendum - Results In - Voters Reject PR

[aGENT]

13 minutes ago, gurn said:

IF there was an option where I could.

Vote for all the candidates in my riding in order of preference ie- 5 people running and my first vote goes to Bob, but Bob ends up with the least votes so gets dropped off, then my next choice is  Sue but she  gets the next least votes and so on till the last person is standing, I'd probably vote for that system.

 

But I will not vote for any system where the dang rules are not known before I vote.

Rural-Urban has ranked ballots:

 

Watch the video I posted in original thread:

 

[Warhippy]

55 minutes ago, BPA said:

There are three different types of proportional representation systems people are asked to choose from — with varying levels of details that would be settled after the referendum, if selected by voters — and plenty of arguments about the merits of each.

• Dual member proportional
• Mixed member proportional
• Rural-urban proportional

 

So which type of PR does Horgan want to implement????

The one people have decided on.

 

Why is this so hard ot understand?  The ballots could not be more simple

 

You check the box yes PR or stay FPTP

 

Then

 

You check box 1 on the furthest left available choices for your chosen type of PR, then your secondary and third options.  Say RUP, DMP, MMP

 

Or if you only like one option you choose that as your only option.

 

Should people choose PR then the PR option with the most 1st ballot checks will be the chosen PR format BC will get.

 

This is literally not rocket science and had people actually read up on things or looked at the ballot they'd know

[BPA]

Here's the problem. 

 

I think RUP is good as it helps those in rural areas.  I'd rather have FPTP than the other 2.

 

So I'd vote FPTP to block the other 2 that I don't like.

[aGENT]

3 hours ago, BPA said:

Here's the problem. 

 

I think RUP is good as it helps those in rural areas.  I'd rather have FPTP than the other 2.

 

So I'd vote FPTP to block the other 2 that I don't like.

You know you can vote for just RUP, right?

[Warhippy]

50 minutes ago, aGENT said:

You know you can vote for just RUP, right?

People actually dont.

 

The fold out that states everything in really simple lettering is being ignored.

 

We did ours.  We voted for PR and RUP and nothing else.

 

Two little black circles

 

Not hard

[BPA]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

You know you can vote for just RUP, right?

Done.

 

RUP it is.

 

[406in604]

On 2018-11-10 at 2:43 PM, BPA said:

Done.

 

RUP it is.

 

I guess ours cancelled each other. 

[JM_]

Apparently Wilkinson was somewhat effective during the debate, and I'm not surprised. Horgan did a terrible job explaining the PR options, but thats also not a big shock as he told everyone he voted for MMP! Revealing his preference seems unethical to me. 

 

- 

 

VICTORIA — Liberal Leader Andrew Wilkinson used this week’s TV debate to make big gains in his campaign to spread confusion over the details of proportional representation. His success has left the Yes side with some tough choices as it tries to counter the Liberal momentum in the critical days ahead.

Wilkinson dedicated almost his entire time during a 30-minute debate Thursday to a focused attack on Premier John Horgan for being unable to explain the practical mechanics of how the three pro-rep options on the referendum ballot would work in the real world.

It was a devastatingly simple but effective argument, because Horgan can’t explain the three systems in short and simple terms. Almost nobody can. Two are not in use anywhere in the world. And the third, mixed member proportional, has so many important details left undecided — the format of party lists, what voters will actually be voting upon, and the structure of ridings — to be near-impossible to explain in any detailed way.

“I think the key point, John, is that you’re the one who wants to change the system and it’s important for you to tell people how this is going to work,” Wilkinson said during the debate.

“Twenty-three different features that you haven’t revealed to people. You’re in control of this process. We want to know and the people at home want to know how many MLAs they’re going to have, how many votes are they going to have, and how are these votes going to be transferred all over the province after they’ve cast their vote to get the proportionality you want to have in place?”

 

 

I voted to select the option of mixed member because it is the most used internationally and gives us a baseline to work from,” Horgan told media recently.

 

https://vancouversun.com/news/politics/rob-shaw-liberal-gains-on-pr-debate-leave-yes-side-with-tough-choices

 

 

[JM_]

On 2018-11-10 at 9:30 AM, gurn said:

IF there was an option where I could.

Vote for all the candidates in my riding in order of preference ie- 5 people running and my first vote goes to Bob, but Bob ends up with the least votes so gets dropped off, then my next choice is  Sue but she  gets the next least votes and so on till the last person is standing, I'd probably vote for that system.

 

But I will not vote for any system where the dang rules are not known before I vote.

thats not an unreasonable position. Telling people to go look it up somewhere is pretty lame. But Horgan prefers MMP anyway so the other options aren't actually going to get any consideration so why bother going through the effort of giving voters information I suppose. The Liberals would get crucified if they were handling the vote this way. 

[BPA]

48 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

thats not an unreasonable position. Telling people to go look it up somewhere is pretty lame. But Horgan prefers MMP anyway so the other options aren't actually going to get any consideration so why bother going through the effort of giving voters information I suppose. The Liberals would get crucified if they were handling the vote this way. 

I agree Horgan did a terrible job.  I had to do my own research to be as informed as much as possible. 

 

I doubt many voters would do that.

[JM_]

10 minutes ago, BPA said:

I agree Horgan did a terrible job.  I had to do my own research to be as informed as much as possible. 

 

I doubt many voters would do that.

its a joke. Two options have never been used before, and Horgan can't - or more likely won't - bother to explain them. He wants MMP and isn't going to bother explaining the other options.

 

This is the kind of behaviour people hated out of Christy Clark but I suppose when Horgan does it, its all good, since he's all about "the people". 

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

thats not an unreasonable position. Telling people to go look it up somewhere is pretty lame. But Horgan prefers MMP anyway so the other options aren't actually going to get any consideration so why bother going through the effort of giving voters information I suppose. The Liberals would get crucified if they were handling the vote this way. 

 

38 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

its a joke. Two options have never been used before, and Horgan can't - or more likely won't - bother to explain them. He wants MMP and isn't going to bother explaining the other options.

 

This is the kind of behaviour people hated out of Christy Clark but I suppose when Horgan does it, its all good, since he's all about "the people". 

Kinda bold statements from someone who so frequents the Trump thread no?

 

As this is being conducted by ELECTIONS BC

 

What Horgan wants is immaterial and claiming that what the people vote for will be ignored by elections BC because Horgan has  a preference is dangerous territory to be entering in to

[JM_]

16 hours ago, Warhippy said:

 

Kinda bold statements from someone who so frequents the Trump thread no?

 

As this is being conducted by ELECTIONS BC

 

What Horgan wants is immaterial and claiming that what the people vote for will be ignored by elections BC because Horgan has  a preference is dangerous territory to be entering in to

what does participating the Trump thread have to do with anything? 

 

Horgan telling people how he voted does matter. NDP supporters on the fence might be swayed and you know it. If Clark was acting this way you'd be all over it. 

[Duodenum]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

what does participating the Trump thread have to do with anything? 

 

Horgan telling people how he voted does matter. NDP supporters on the fence might be swayed and you know it. If Clark was acting this way you'd be all over it. 

I prefer the current NDP over the Liberals but Horgan definitely bundled this up. 

 

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

what does participating the Trump thread have to do with anything? 

 

Horgan telling people how he voted does matter. NDP supporters on the fence might be swayed and you know it. If Clark was acting this way you'd be all over it. 

Actually I wouldn't.  Could care less how anyone votes.  I do my homework and vote for what works for me.  Always have.  If clark was in power and she said I am voting for purple monkey dishwasher I would give two randy sharts because it wouldn't sway me.

 

But when you claim that Horgan will manipulate and ignore all other options, in essence to steal what he wants you're in very dangerous territory.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

37 minutes ago, Duodenum said:

I prefer the current NDP over the Liberals but Horgan definitely bundled this up. 

 

I prefer *ACTUAL* Liberals over BC (Socreds/Small C Conservatives) Provincial Liberals.  Heck, I'm more of a "Red Tory" myself.  Unfortunately they're extinct.

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Actually I wouldn't.  Could care less how anyone votes.  I do my homework and vote for what works for me.  Always have.  If clark was in power and she said I am voting for purple monkey dishwasher I would give two randy sharts because it wouldn't sway me.

 

But when you claim that Horgan will manipulate and ignore all other options, in essence to steal what he wants you're in very dangerous territory.

but he is. You noted above that you picked the rural option, good luck with that. 

 

People on the NDP side were freaking out when Clark was trying to manipulate a referendum on transit funding, what Horgan is doing is on a whole different level. He's giving fake "choices" he's admitted to not liking. He's not giving us a concrete example of what his version of MMP will look like, we're just supposed to trust that the NDP will do it fairly. Oh yeah? And why is that? He's a politician, he'll do whats best for his party. Wilkinson is a lot of things, but he's right on that point, there isn't enough transparency in the process. But maybe you are OK with that since you seem to trust Horgan more. I don't. 

[aGENT]

https://theprovince.com/opinion/op-ed/tom-perry-pr-will-bring-more-voices-and-better-government-to-b-c

 

Quote

Tom Perry: Pro rep will bring more voices and better government to B.C.

I’m voting for PR because I think it will give us wiser, more thoughtful governments. It won’t be perfect, but the fear-mongering about racist or right-wing parties is absurd.

I’m voting for proportional representation because I want better government that deals proactively with issues of universal importance, like climate change and income inequality. I want my values to be reflected in government more often than not. Most of my life, I’ve voted for losers and I’m tired of it. Even though I’ve worked in at least 15 election campaigns, it was often a disillusioning experience because there was no chance that the election results would reflect accurately the public will. Granted, I’ve been represented for decades by two fine MPs, but even their brilliance had little impact within their own ruling parties, let alone our government.

 

Once, I voted for myself in a by-election and won! But my enthusiasm soon dimmed in the reality of the Legislative Assembly. Naively, I volunteered as health critic to help the health minister rein in escalating prescription drug costs and improve outcomes. Because I was from the NDP, his internal robot replied, “Don’t call us, we’ll call you.”

 

Seven years later, like so many other MLAs from all parties, I felt that I had largely wasted my education, knowledge, and insights in a forum where elected representatives had the least power and influence of anyone.

 

I did learn one fine thing from other MLAs. We often shared more perspectives than those that divided us. This transcended urban or rural constituencies. Most city dwellers may be relatively ignorant of living conditions in our north, but we do have friends or relatives who live and work there, and we’re capable of learning. Now we’re all affected by drug addiction, alcoholism and the natural causes of sickness. We must all reconcile with the descendants of peoples who long preceded us here. Who among us does not see how housing prices are distorting almost every aspect of life for younger people and their employers? Everyone faces the impacts of climate change.

 

Our electoral system is ill-suited to tackle long-term issues. When I raised climate change in the cabinet in 1993, many colleagues thought me a deluded alarmist. As difficult issues arose for discussion, I was often indeed alarmed at the quality of information upon which important decisions would be based.

 

Ignorant decisions were hardly unique to the government in which I served. But it is typically worst in those that concentrate power in single leaders and their unelected staff. A few independent voices often remain in party caucuses, but the internal dynamic often characterizes fresh ideas as “renegade.” Anyone who has served knows what I’m talking about.

 

How could PR change this? It’s obvious that the election of three Green MLAs, reflecting far less than their proportional share of the 2017 provincial vote, has improved discussion and decision-making in B.C. We may have lost some fine MLAs, but we gained three new voices who are unafraid to be heard. This keeps others on their toes. To me, it’s the first blush of a more mature, sensitive, and productive democracy.

 

I’m voting for PR because I think it will give us wiser, more thoughtful governments. It won’t be perfect, but the fear-mongering about racist or right-wing parties is absurd. Think back to the majority governments that brought us the forced relocation and property confiscation from Canadian citizens of Japanese descent. Consider the majority governments that denied the right to vote to Aboriginals, Chinese immigrants and women. What if there had been more diversity in our legislature in those days?

 

I see the potential for a West Coast spring. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau stole this possibility from Canada after promising a different vision in 2015. Here in B.C., we only need the courage to vote for a chance to see something better. Our three-party legislature can work out the details in broad daylight but only if we give them a mandate for more democracy.

 

 

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, aGENT said:

https://theprovince.com/opinion/op-ed/tom-perry-pr-will-bring-more-voices-and-better-government-to-b-c

 

 

this line is an absolute joke: How could PR change this? It’s obvious that the election of three Green MLAs, reflecting far less than their proportional share of the 2017 provincial vote, has improved discussion and decision-making in B.C. We may have lost some fine MLAs, but we gained three new voices who are unafraid to be heard. This keeps others on their toes. To me, it’s the first blush of a more mature, sensitive, and productive democracy.

 

the greens caved in on all of their major platform that wasn't already aligned with the NDP. How was decision making improved? 

[aGENT]

12 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

this line is an absolute joke: How could PR change this? It’s obvious that the election of three Green MLAs, reflecting far less than their proportional share of the 2017 provincial vote, has improved discussion and decision-making in B.C. We may have lost some fine MLAs, but we gained three new voices who are unafraid to be heard. This keeps others on their toes. To me, it’s the first blush of a more mature, sensitive, and productive democracy.

 

the greens caved in on all of their major platform that wasn't already aligned with the NDP. How was decision making improved? 

It's a bit presumptuous of you to assume they 'caved' on anything or what in turn they may have gained otherwise for compromising (as opposing parties are supposed to do) on some of those issues. 

 

And even if what you're claiming is true with these specific circumstances, people, parties and seats, that's hardly a a claim it would always be that way with all parties, people and seats.

 

I think it's fairly obvious how PR might otherwise give ignored people and ideas a larger footing for their platforms and overall governance.