DSVII

Oh for sure. I think Vancovuer ranks only behind Toronto and Montreal for the media pressure. It was very disappointing to see them run with the narratives generated around the league for the 'most hated team' post 2011. Which makes me very happy to see JR push back against our overzealous reporters with all the Miller talk.

@Dazzle I'll just end off with an olive branch here, I know I'm coming across as very standoffish here and "Gillis was god, Boo Benning" here and all that. But it's not that. And it's not the kind of fan I want to be. We both cheer for the same team and granted we have different visions of what this team should be and how it gets there. I'm just tired of seeing the team I love getting torn apart slowly. And that was what it felt like the last 8 years. I've had friends start families, begin and finish doctorates and M.Ds in the time it took for this era to be over. With nothing to show for it but a bubble playoff appearance, bottom-ranked performances and empty promises and emptier prospect pool. Believe it or not, I was a Benning supporter. I liked his signings for Miller/Vrbata. They were perfect for that team and locker room at the time, and set us up well for a rebuild in 2016 that never happened. I was actually okay with Sbisa because to me, the fundamental strategy would be the same, give the Sedins one last run and then rebuild. Never trade a 1st rounder and build up the pool. Then we let Hamhuis and Vrbata walk for nothing. We fired Gilman and we fired longtime trainer Mike Burnstein (I still believe this directly influenced Tanev's injury history.) to bring in a hack like Celebrini (who went on to contribute to the Golden State Warrior's injury plagued loss to the Raptors in the 2019 finals). It's not one big thing, but a slow accumulation of small mistakes and mismanagement that sapped my optimism. Celebrini's time as the physio trainer and Chris Tanev's games played. We were once the team that led the league in innovation, in using stats and analytics to scout players and sleep doctors and the like to get the best out of our players. Today, the best teams in the league are being built copying the 2011 Canucks blueprint and are succeeding while we were regressing back to the 2000s with a GM that seemed stuck in the past, valuing players on what they were years ago. It's just frustrating to see. 2020 was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. There is no way an NHL level executive should come up with the excuse 'we ran out of time', and even this season in 2022 during the media interview Benning admitted he did not know what was going on and why the team was doing so poorly under Green. That is unacceptable and really highlighted he shouldn't have been given this offseason to make the trades he did. I really wanted Benning to succeed. Believe me. If we could search up my posts in 2014 I defended the Bonino/Sbisa trade. I was even throwing my preference for a long term strategy out the window this past offseason for just a glimmer of playoffs to cheer. But everything he did here since his first season flied in the face of how assets are accumulated and valued in the NHL that I've seen during my time as a fan. Granted I'm no expert, but it was just disheartening to see. And the reason why I push back so hard against these posts is that I just never want to see this kind of thinking and methodology that led to the last 8 years ever touch this team again. Let's look no further than the 2023 Flyers with Torts to see where that takes us. Anyways, won't take up this thread on defensemen any longer with the Gillis stuff. I look forward to when this offseason ends so we can get back to cheering the team back on the ice! I'll see if I can throw together some thoughts on the D pairings later for this topic!

hey, all those assists wouldn't have existed without someone to bury them

Haha sorry @JM_ but can't let that slander against the 2011 team and the front office that took us there go unchallenged. I'll find some more defense stats to post later on :p

You're giving Gillis grief for not finding a replacement for Edler when he was in his prime (28). That is not a reasonable assessment and you know it. Otherwise you should blame Benning for not drafting OEL and Myer's replacements the moment they were signed and traded for (30). And Markstrom and Tanev were a Gillis pieces. You know, the shutodwn D and goalie that was propping up his teams that ranked consistently in the low 20s in high danger chances against. Why are you spending so much time and energy defending a GM whose time here directly benefited every other team in our division but us I'll never know. Just Bo Horvat is all i need to counter that ridiculous statement. And Benning hasn't been filling the farm team either....name a prospect in the last eight years outside of Demko who is going to graduate to the main team. Rathbone, that's it. You know what's a bigger failure? Whiffing on two picks in the top 10, especially a 5th overall. In the spirit of the thread, let's use stats to quantify this shall we? Gillis made an error at 29th with Jensen that is 151.85 in trade value. Benning made an error at 5th overall with Juolevi that is 484 or 3x that value in terms of what could have been in a trade. Or to put it simply, one mistake in the draft at the 5th overall spot is the equivalent of missing three picks at the 29th spot. Let's not forget he messed up at 6th overall too A Gillis draft miss mathematically does not have the same weight as a Benning draft miss because Benning was always drafting in the top part of the round during his time here I'll repeat this to you. A Gillis draft miss mathematically does not have the same weight as a Benning draft miss because Benning was always drafting in the top part of the round during his time here. Benning has lost a way more value at the draft than Gillis from his whiffs. https://soundofhockey.com/2022/06/06/examining-the-value-of-nhl-draft-picks/ This chart too correlates with performance (Game Score Value Added). Players you hit at the beginning of the draft do return more production. Of course, let's look at the actual results with hindsight rather than projected values. To illustrate the lost value over time. From the 2016 5th round pick alone Juolevi returned Lammiko which returned nothing. Tkachuk returned Jonathan Hubredeau, Mackenzie Weegar, a 2023 1st, and a prospect. We missed out on a lot more that three times Juolevi's value unfortunately. And you're down playing this substantially. Samuelsson scored 30 goals for us, which you would have lauded Benning for with Vrbata (good signing), was he a lucky whiff then? really now.... I honestly wished Benning was lucky enough to have a list of names to match this. You're also crediting Benning with stepping up to a podium with high draft picks, when I could literally hand you a hockey prospects magazine with rankings and guaranteed you'd be walking back with at least Nylander, Hughes and Tkachuk. The other part is assembling the team with a supporting case, which Benning has failed at time and time again. He's had some hits for, but his misses are pretty egregious. (Beagle, Player Name, Roussel, Sbisa, Gudbranson, Poolman, Holtby, Dickinson) That roster still made playoffs in 2015 and scored over 100 points. How does that speak to Benning's job performance when he hasn't assembled a team since that time 7 years ago that has outperformed Willie D and that 'trash' 2015 roster? Lastly, let's look at the state of the teams shall we at those points in time Benning inherited a prospect pool that was ranked 24th and a 'trash' team power ranked in the top 10 to start the season agreed on by the industry Rutherford inherited a prospect pool that was ranked 27th and a team power ranked 21st to start the season Again, Benning did not leave Rutherford with an easy situation either. In fact, his roster has just as many question marks as the 2015 Canucks, is less proven in the regular season and playoffs and has less cap flexibiilty.

We were ranked 20th in the league playing barely 0.500 hockey prior to the 2020 shutdown. After blowing our 2nd round pick on a rental with an injured Tanev, Markstrom Toffoli. We were on our way there. Luckily for Benning covid stopped everything. The culture of this team was damaged on the front office and locker room. Long respected high performers were let go and scooped up by other teams because Weisbrod and Benning didn't like dissent. The loss of locker room guys like Edler, Tanev, Markstrom, Lack, Stetcher, and just how they were disrespected and ignored come free agency. The losing culture of finishing at the bottom for eight years. The value loss and diminished prospect pool (Benning inherited a 24th ranked prospect pool from Gillis, Rutherford got a 27th ranked prospect pool) from years of trading 2nds and 3rds for overpaid 4th liners and passengers. Trading for a 30 year old defensemen giving up 12 million of cap flexibility plus a top 10 pick. Having all the leverage in trades yet ending up being the loser in them (Tampa -> JT, Pittsburgh -> Sutter, Sbisa contract extension, Arizona being desperate to offload OEL). There was an underlying rot in this team that was window dressed by the good parts that slowly left until it all came to a head in 2021-2022. Hopefully Bruce and JR can turn it around. It'll take time.

The team that made game 7 of the finals, which included a lot of parts Gillis brought on. There's only two other teams in our franchise history that made that stage and the 2011 was arguably the most dominant one when compared to the peers of the time. The core of Kesler, Burrows, Luongo, Bieksa and the Sedins were in place yes, but Mikhael Samuelsson, Christian Ehrhoff, Chris Higgins, Maxim LaPierre, Dan Hamhuis were definitely upgrades that augmented that core. The Sundin signing was credited with having a big part to play in Hank/Dank and Kes' development. Demitra too can't be ignored. I think you're also downplaying how he was able to lock down that core before any of them hit free agency. There's a lot of revisionism going on here about how that core was always destined to make the cup finals. It was not that clear cut. Until Gillis' first season, people were questioning whether the Sedins were the core players that would take the next step and whether they were the guys. The team missed playoffs two of the last three seasons when Gillis took over, which was deemed unacceptable. The bar was much higher back then. Gillis never had a chance to replace Edler, he was fired shortly after trading for Markstrom and Horvat. Edler was also 28 at the time Gillis got fired, so he had no reason to look for a replacement at that point in time. Yep those were horrible trades. In hindsight, should have just retained Willie Mitchell rather than try and replace him. All the moves post-2012 were puzzling to me I'll give you that, but it was to give the Sedins that one last push in 2013. Afterwards Gillis made what rebuilding moves he could before he got canned, getting Markstrom and Horvat. The list for your boy Benning, even if I were to break his time here into two separate four year eras, exceeds that in terms of value lost in both trades, picks and whiffs at relative draft positions per four year term. He was fired before he had a chance to rebuild. We've gone through this before. A 100+ point playoff team with tradeable assets. (Sedins aside) The 6th overall pick (which became Jake Virtanen) A lower ranked prospect pool yes, but still had names like Bo Horvat, Brandon Gaunce, Eddie Lack, Frankie Corrado, Jordan subban Nicklas Jensen and Shinkaruk (*these guys had value at the time that could have been used in a trade) A tradeable 2C in Kesler that even with the restricted teams list, had assets available that were much better than Sbisa which Benning ultimately valued above a prospect like Shea Theodore or a push for the 10OA (a pro scouting error) Luongo, who ended up returning future #1 Goalie Markstrom. Lu and Marky never were on the roster at the same time. Tanev - A 24 year old shutdown RHD Let's not forget, The Utica comets farm system - he laid the groundwork with which Benning could control the development of future prospects, something JB ignored and let Cull do his own thing. But Gillis was operating at a developmental handicap with his draft picks being in the hands of the Chicago Wolves and deployment out of his control. ~$12 million in projected cap space excluding the cap savings from trading Kesler. (Promptly filled with a $6 million Ryan Miller and $5 million Vrbata) I bet JR wishes he had this flexibility to work with leftover from Benning. Gillis had his warts and his time was up, but he left Benning with a decent start to a rebuild and retool. not the wasteland you're suggesting.

I was a huge fan of Woo when he was drafted, but when D-men are deployed as forwards it does not bode well for their development defensively. There's really two defensemen I recall in recent history that have succeeded with flying colors in that front, and Dustin Byfuglien and Brent Burns. And Woo does not fit their profiles. I also recall we had Jordan Subban try a stint at forward with Utica and it didn't help him out either. Here's hoping we see him on the ice as an NHL regular, I personally would be pumped, but the odds are starting to stack against him.

Pretty funny that $&!# team reached 100+ points and playoffs the year he inherited it. Something Benning has been failing to replicate since losing the D core Gillis leftovers he inherited ( Tanev, Hamhuis, Edler, Markstrom). Locked in long term? The Sedins contracts expired in 2017. Bennings tenure had another 4 offseasons after that. And he traded ntcs like Burrows, bieksa, Garrison. He chose not to move on from that team. That's on Benning. Also NTCs on a cap friendly deal are not as locked in as you'd think. You know what's locked in for the salary cap era? Defensemen and 3/4th liners overpaid by $1-2 million. Benning should be thanking Gillis for the parts he inherited that hid his deficient signings. As soon as these guys left. Bennings contracts couldn't last a season without being bought out or exposed as overpaid and under performing. I'm always puzzled why a segment of this fanbase is going to bat for someone who did so much long term harm to the culture and performance of this org that even a Calgary Flames fan can appreciate it. And crapping on the GM who almost had his name on the cup and never had a chance to properly rebuild.

Depends what kind of flavor of worse you prefer. The gruesome train wreck or slow burning dumpster fire. Sharp straight decline, or a long apathetic slog of mediocrity. Which ones would you rank worse out of curiosity? https://www.nucksmisconduct.com/2021/12/22/22802321/ranking-darkest-eras-vancouver-canucks-history

Yes. I'm fine with 5 more years if it means setting up the next decade and a half after. Rather than another 8 years of 'make the playoffs anything can happen'. We're in this mess because we never bit the bullet and accepted the need for a rebuild. The core we assembled along the way was from merely existing and collecting our 1sts like all the other teams rather than any planned strategy/structure. It also doesn't necessarily have to be 5 years. Look at NYR. You play your cards right you can bounce back in 2-3 years. Of course. If our stars grow and show they have what it takes to stand toe to toe with the likes if Mackinnon/Makar, McD/Drai, Mathews/Tavares, Crosby/Malkin, Barkov/Ekblad, Kucherov/Hedman/stamkos. Then by all means let's go for it.

I'm not 100% convinced Petersson/Boeser/Horvat/Hughes/Demko is a good enough core to make a deep playoff run unless we see Petey/Hughes take the next step forward. Scorched Earth rebuild is still on the table for me.

You're welcome! And that's a fair assessment. I think a full year under Bruce Boudreau and his systems will give us a better idea of where this group ranks on results. i've done a similar analysis in the past for Travis Green's teams before and after the bubble and they were UGLY. Offense Defense Ranked scoring chances against Ranked goals scored against for opposition high danger chances

Np, I was tempted to jump back into the Gillis vs Benning debate raging in this thread. But not today. lol not what this thread is about. To clarify 5on5 + goalie is not a stat, but just me separating out defense stats that are propped up by the quality of goaltending. Goals allowed is also influenced by our goalies, but shots allowed has nothing to do with the goalie and all with the defense for instance. For me, it's not Myers as my biggest worry, he's my 2nd worry haha, i just hope OEL's level of play can remain top 4 quality into his mid 30s And yea to your answer: I just don't feel like we've gotten a good enough return on investment from a cap perspective on our Defense then. But who knows, maybe a full year of Bruce will change that!

I think ELCs do and should count, building through the draft is an option, as we did it with Hughes but we didn't take advantage of it, the benefits of his savings was outweighed by Roussel/Beagle/Loui. If you can get an ELC from your draft (dare I say, Elias Pettersson) who can play top 4 minutes in your competitive window. That's huge and a feather in the cap of any GM

https://moneypuck.com/data.htm Download the team datasets, it has all situations. 5on5 4on5 5on4 Other (which i assume includes 5on3)

Ah @JM_ This kind of question really appeals to my OCD/ADHD part of my brain haha so thanks :D If we want to be really granular, you can find some good datasets with line pairings here: https://moneypuck.com/data.htm. And cap number from our Full Roster Cap spending on Defensemen from last season (post TDL so no Hamonic but plus Dermott) found here: https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/positional/2021/defenseman/full-cap/ For my analysis I'm ranking the sum of all the line pairing data below. Keep in mind the dataset I'm using has 5on5 strength only, filtered to D pairings in 2021-2022. And I'm not ranking this based on expected goals, since this is defensive pairing data, but i'm summing up all the shots/attempts/chances/giveaways/hits/goals that all our D pairings were on for/against combined for in 5v5 situations in 2021-2022. To answer your question, no, the D isn't as craptacular as it was in the beginning of the season, but to me it comes down to two things. Cap Space and Opportunity cost. We traded a lot of future potential (cap space + picks) to put this blue line together + we have one of the more expensive blue lines in the league. Offensively they aren't driving the play as much as other teams cheaper blue lines, and defensively they are ok, but middling results for a top 10 paid blueline that cost us picks and cap flexibility sours me a bit on it. I think Demko covers up a lot. I think the below rankings really illustrates how much our Goaltending has bailed us out at 5v5. Our D-pairings have given up the least goals in the league 5v5 while performing roughly average on the defensive end. And Bruce has also done a good job with this D-core limiting high danger chances against 5v5 once he took over. I think as far as evaluating the blue line I'd like to see how they do without the goaltending. Basically: Would you feel confident in the quality of this blue line to play them in front of a league average goalie while paying them a top 10 cap hit that translates to ~$4 mil more than what the league average spends on defense ($24.2 mil)? I think it all boils down to that for me. This is a game of inches and when a rival team can assemble a better blue line than us for $3-4 mil cheaper it's huge. That's a better blue line + a JT Miller deadline acquisition at TDL or room for a 40 pt player, that makes a huge difference in the salary cap era. I still believe Benning could and should have done better, considering the options and cap flexibility we gave up to assemble this blue line. Of course, any thoughts are appreciated! Ranked 5v5 Results from Collective Team Defense Pairings by Salary Cap Spend 2021-2022 Random thoughts: - Ouch San Jose! - Interesting to note both cup finalists have the most expensive blue lines - Tampa Bay is actually better on the defensive end of the puck than the offense relative to the rest of the league. - Florida, Toronto, Vegas, Carolina have really offensive blue lines - Either Hellebuyck is not as good as I thought he was or WPG's defense is REALLY bad. - Boston and Carolina is probably the best bang for your buck, all around blue line team - you get what you paid for at the bottom. Horrible metrics almost all around. - Montreal, Winnipeg, Edmonton have the most aggressive D when it comes to pinching and forcing a turnover, which probably corresponds with their suboptimal Defensive stats. - Demko is worth every penny of his $5 mil and then some

There's a lot of things inefficient about our cap structure. But Demko ain't it.

There's some, granted you have to look at some ELCs 2021 cap hits Mackenzie Weegar ($3.25 mil) - RHD Mortiz Seider ($863k) - RHD Noah Dobson ($894k) - RHD Devon Toews ($4.1 mil) Brian Dumolin ($4.1 mil) Vince Dunn ($4 mil) It's rare as RHD and top pairing defensemen are valued. But when you can hit on one it's great.

As long as the identity isn't "hard to play against". That's code word for signing overaging grinders that hit. (See philly)

Had no idea we were even in on him. I liked him in Toronto but yeah, someone is definitely moving with this deal. Garland/Pearson/Dickinson??

Now we know why Sakic promoted himself out of the GM role. He didn't want to risk competing with Dorion unleashed !

So far: - Signed the top, most sought after European Free Agent on the Market - Kuzmenko - Extended Brock at a fair deal below his QO - Drafted a potential top 10 Talent in the 1st round Slow and steady wins the race. At least we didn't take on a cap dump like the Laffs, only to watch your trade partner acquire a more reliable goalie option for a cheaper rate :D

Leafs have litterally nothing of value I'd want outside of Mathews and that's a non-starter.