thejazz97 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Just saying, it's kind of sad when a group can't even agree on the definition of itself. Then again, atheism isn't exactly organized... so never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICanucksfan5551 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I'm not sure how those quotes are saying atheists "don't know" or "aren't sure" and that the definition of agnostic/atheist overlap.... they seem to be proving my point... They're saying that atheists can simply lack belief. Are you saying lacking belief and not making claims to knowledge are mutually exclusive?http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dral Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 They're saying that atheists can simply lack belief. Are you saying lacking belief and not making claims to knowledge are mutually exclusive?http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism I'm saying there is a difference between "I don't believe" and "I don't know" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLASSJAW Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I'm not sure how those quotes are saying atheists "don't know" or "aren't sure" and that the definition of agnostic/atheist overlap.... they seem to be proving my point... each definition says both (1) A person who disbelieves or (2) lacks belief in the existence of God or gods 1 = a person who disbelieves in god is making an intellectual, conscious decision to disbelieve in the concept of "god" -- in order to disbelieve, there has to be something to believe in, therefore the idea of god must exist for them to not believe in it 2 = a person lacks the belief, which could be as a default since it doesn't require something to exist. the 'issue' of god simply isn't there. therefore, lacking a belief could be argued to be a psychological state rather than an intellectual one. in other words, you're born without a belief in the existence of god (which is a lack in belief), therefore you are technically an atheist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockout Casualty Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Like every group of people it has its jerk-offs. That's a problem with groups, not atheism per se. Mainly the assertion that there is no god/creator/whatever. The Atheist doesn't know for sure, so his/her assertion is based on the same lack of evidence a religious person is often accused of. It's those who claim to have the answers without evidence that more often than not cause the problems (for either side). This is why any institution (secular government or religion) that suppresses the advancement/pursuit of knowledge is our true adversary. This is true. Atheism makes no assertion, it's just a lack of a belief. And until someone with more authority then a pimply faced Internet meme creating adolescent acknowledges the change, you're simply using, at best, a slang definition. And if a baby doesn't have a comprehension of God, how can it believe it doesn't exist? An Atheist acknowledges the concept of God and rejects it as being false.... a baby can do neither of those I see smarter guys than I already weighed in on this, but by what definition does an atheist acknowledge the concept of god and reject it as false? I don't know how authoritative it is to you, but Atheists.org also presents a definition for atheism. WHAT IS ATHEISM? No one asks this question enough. The reason no one asks this question a lot is because most people have preconceived ideas and notions about what an Atheist is and is not. Where these preconceived ideas come from varies, but they tend to evolve from theistic influences or other sources. Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Older dictionaries define atheism as "a belief that there is no God." Some dictionaries even go so far as to define Atheism as "wickedness," "sinfulness," and other derogatory adjectives. Clearly, theistic influence taints dictionaries. People cannot trust these dictionaries to define atheism. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as "there is no God" betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read "there are no gods." Why should atheists allow theists to define who atheists are? Do other minorities allow the majority to define their character, views, and opinions? No, they do not. So why does everyone expect atheists to lie down and accept the definition placed upon them by the world’s theists? Atheists will define themselves. Atheism is not a belief system nor is it a religion. While there are some religions that are atheistic (certain sects of Buddhism, for example), that does not mean that atheism is a religion. Two commonly used retorts to the nonsense that atheism is a religion are: 1) If atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color, and 2) If atheism is a religion then health is a disease. A new one introduced in 2012 by Bill Maher is, "If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sexual position." The only common thread that ties all atheists together is a lack of belief in gods and supernatural beings. Some of the best debates we have ever had have been with fellow atheists. This is because atheists do not have a common belief system, sacred scripture or atheist Pope. This means atheists often disagree on many issues and ideas. Atheists come in a variety of shapes, colors, beliefs, convictions, and backgrounds. We are as unique as our fingerprints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dral Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 If you're going to say Atheists lack a belief in God, and that makes them agnostic as well, you run into the problem that agnostic would also lack a disbelief in God, which atheists (by definition) do not.... I do hear people say "I don't believe in God" but rarely is it followed by a "but I also don't disbelieve in God as well".... which is where the agnostics lay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejazz97 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 If you're going to say Atheists lack a belief in God, and that makes them agnostic as well, you run into the problem that agnostic would also lack a disbelief in God, which atheists (by definition) do not.... I do hear people say "I don't believe in God" but rarely is it followed by a "but I also don't disbelieve in God as well".... which is where the agnostics lay. From what I've heard, atheists don't believe in God. Agnostics believe there could be. And most who identify as one of the two don't care. But that's just what I've heard. I'm sure the Oxford Dictionary and Wikipedia are much more reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dral Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Also, as an authority, I'm going with oxford or websters dictionary... this is from Oxford agnostic Line breaks: ag|nos¦tic Pronunciation: /aɡˈnɒstɪk/ Definition of agnostic in English: noun A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God. atheist Line breaks: athe|ist Pronunciation: /ˈeɪθɪɪst/ Definition of atheist in English: noun A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods: he is a committed atheist It seems pretty obvious to me that there is quite a difference between the too Also - I have no problems with the meaning of words changing, or new words coming into existence... the English language has evolved beautifully by doing just that.... and it almost always starts with colloquialisms and probably in the near future it will change to meet what you guys think the definitions should be... however currently, the definition is as I've said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dral Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Also - if you're going to say "I don't believe in God"... you run into the problem of Atheism being a "belief system" (or maybe we can use the Nietzchian "Value Judgement System"?), which the atheist.org says they aren't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejazz97 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Also - if you're going to say "I don't believe in God"... you run into the problem of Atheism being a "belief system" (or maybe we can use the Nietzchian "Value Judgement System"?), which the atheist.org says they aren't... So atheists can't say "I don't believe in God", then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockout Casualty Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Also - if you're going to say "I don't believe in God"... you run into the problem of Atheism being a "belief system" (or maybe we can use the Nietzchian "Value Judgement System"?), which the atheist.org says they aren't... Atheist.org doesn't define atheism as "don't believe in god", rather as a "lack of belief". So it avoids the problem of being a belief system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLASSJAW Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Also, as an authority, I'm going with oxford or websters dictionary... this is from Oxford It seems pretty obvious to me that there is quite a difference between the too Also - I have no problems with the meaning of words changing, or new words coming into existence... the English language has evolved beautifully by doing just that.... and it almost always starts with colloquialisms and probably in the near future it will change to meet what you guys think the definitions should be... however currently, the definition is as I've said again, the first definition implies an intellectual choice, since the wording suggests that the agnostic must have an idea of what 'god' in order for them to say that nobody could know anything about it/him/her that is the same about the atheist definition, until it adds in the tidbit of 'or lacks belief' because that is a totally slippery definition which doesn't require any sort of acknowledgment of the concept in the first place. the absence of anything, but that definition, is atheistic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalky Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 "There was surprise when Prof Dawkins acknowledged that he was less than 100 per cent certain of his conviction that there is no creator. The philosopher Sir Anthony Kenny, who chaired the discussion, interjected: “Why don’t you call yourself an agnostic?” Prof Dawkins answered that he did." - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9102740/Richard-Dawkins-I-cant-be-sure-God-does-not-exist.html I am no Dawkins fan, I find him contrite and egotistical, but I use this quote to back my opinion that agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive as it pertains to today. I will also add that the internet muddied up the debate with massive amounts of opinion mixed with fact, making it tremendously tedious to sort through all the information. Not to mention atheism has pre-Christ roots in other religions such as Hinduism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalky Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 So atheists can't say "I don't believe in God", then? They can say it and they can believe it, but they can't know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dral Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Atheist.org doesn't define atheism as "don't believe in god", rather as a "lack of belief". So it avoids the problem of being a belief system. I find that cute... Atheists want to distance themselves so much from religion they deny having a belief system... Just to play around with semantics a bit, what's your definition of a belief system? Would you say its a philosophical idea? Only a religious idea? So atheists can't say "I don't believe in God", then? They can say it, but not while also saying "I have no belief system" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustapha Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 They can say it and they can believe it, but they can't know it. lmao, no kidding. Nobody possesses absolute knowledge of anything. Everyone knows that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dral Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 lmao, no kidding. Nobody possesses absolute knowledge of anything. Everyone knows that! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEfCiW4_pDQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I don't know a single atheist who claims to know absolutely that there is no god. Do you? To use a bit of a cliche response, is it unreasonable to assert that there is likely no teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars, despite there being no evidence to disprove it? Yes, I do. I hear that claim more often than an acceptance that they (the atheist) may be wrong and the non-existence of a supreme being is reasoned speculation. It is unreasonable to assert the floating teapot doesn't exist in my opinion (by now someone has fired one up there just to make someone who uses the cliche eat their words ). While I am not going to argue in favour of a teapot up there, I am not about to discount the possibility until evidence shows my speculation (that it isn't up there) to be incorrect. There are still too many unanswered questions for such rigidity. Atheism makes no assertion, it's just a lack of a belief. I know full well that Atheism is a lack of belief, that doesn't mean individuals who have that lack of belief don't publicly broach the subject with those who do (and vehemently defend their position while doing so). All it takes is a (not so) quick perusal of previous threads on the subject to understand what I am talking about. They can say it and they can believe it, but they can't know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustapha Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I find that cute... Atheists want to distance themselves so much from religion they deny having a belief system... Just to play around with semantics a bit, what's your definition of a belief system? Would you say its a philosophical idea? Only a religious idea? They can say it, but not while also saying "I have no belief system" I don't believe in the tooth fairy. I never have. Why? Because nobody has been able to convince me that the tooth fairy exists. Do I model my values and life priorities around whether or not the tooth fairy exists? Of course not, because I find it illogical to dwell on an abstract concept that cannot be proven or disproven in and demonstrable way. Turns out, I have the same outlook on the concept of 'A conscious all powerful being who created life'. You can label me as an atheist or agnostic or whatever, but I look at it this way: Whether or not this concept is real, as of right now there is no way to prove or disprove it, so to me it seems illogical to plan my life around something that may not even exist. I choose to form my own opinions on what positions I take with regards to society, law, morality, etc. If you want to call it a belief system I call it 'Thinking for myself' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockout Casualty Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I find that cute... Atheists want to distance themselves so much from religion they deny having a belief system... Just to play around with semantics a bit, what's your definition of a belief system? Would you say its a philosophical idea? Only a religious idea? I'd say a belief system has to actively, or consciously believe or disbelieve something. If I don't have a concept of something, I can't say "I don't believe in X" thereby professing a belief system, but I stick lack the belief in that something. As for distancing from religion, I don't think it's about distancing for distance's sake, but about demonstrating inherent differences. Just because two concepts are opposite does not make them equally opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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