[Discussion] Was Tort's Right All Along?

[Where'd Luongo?]

[Discussion]

Even though we made the playoffs last year and some of the older players have been playing average hockey, I feel like we could have been in a better position at this point. If Linden would have taken Tortorella's opinion in their opening meeting and believed that his opinion was correct, we would have already removed Edler, Higgins, Burrows, and the Sedins. You can argue that the Sedins are still playing good hockey, but they aren't as clutch as they used to be.

 

Our roster would have an additional:

H. Sedin - A level prospect

D. Sedin - A level prospect

Edler - A level prospect

Burrows - B level prospect

Higgins - B level prospect

 

No Vrbata and no Miller, just Lack and Markstrom. Instead we would have 11 Million/year to spend elsewhere to attract some young RFA's, not old rentals.

 

We would have also kept Tortorella around, and ya he pissed a lot of people off, but you have to acknowledge his ability to see slackers and punish them immediately. I respect that, and I want a team that doesn't skate like they ate a 1 pound fuddruckers burger before the game. Willie is so soft on everyone that I don't feel they get enough of a push from him.

 

Lastly, Linden's hiring process of a GM would have been targeted at a GM who didn't think this was the team to run for the cup again. It sure would have been interesting to hear strategies on how to immediately change this team rather than Benning who said "I still believe we can win with this core." I want to know the GM that said "I have some ideas on how we can get some key assets to rebuild our 1st and 2nd lines."

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

10 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

Even though we made the playoffs last year and some of the older players have been playing average hockey, I feel like we could have been in a better position at this point. If Linden would have taken Tortorella's opinion in their opening meeting and believed that his opinion was correct, we would have already removed Edler, Higgins, Burrows, and the Sedins. You can argue that the Sedins are still playing good hockey, but they aren't as clutch as they used to be.

 

Our roster would have an additional:

H. Sedin - A level prospect

D. Sedin - A level prospect

Edler - A level prospect

Burrows - B level prospect

Higgins - B level prospect

 

We would have also kept Tortorella around, and ya he pissed a lot of people off, but you have to acknowledge his ability to see slackers and punish them immediately. I respect that, and I want a team that doesn't skate like they ate a 1 pound fuddruckers burger before the game. Willie is so soft on everyone that I don't feel they get enough of a push from him.

 

Lastly, Linden's hiring process of a GM would have been targeted at a GM who didn't think this was the team to run for the cup again. It sure would have been interesting to hear strategies on how to immediately change this team rather than Benning who said "I still believe we can win with this core." I want to know the GM that said "I have some ideas on how we can get some key assets to rebuild our 1st and 2nd lines."

You would have to get them all to waive their no-trade clauses.  And please don't respond with the "they'd do it for the greater good".

[Where'd Luongo?]

Just now, Bob.Loblaw said:

You would have to get them all to waive their no-trade clauses.  And please don't respond with the "they'd do it for the greater good".

You're right, but I think there are ways to pressure people out of an organization. Give them no ice time or sit them. Send guys down to the AHL. Buy them out. There are options and some would probably take the plunge and just do it if asked.

[desiboynux4lifee*******]

torts was right; infact, we fired torts too early. We should of kept him and tanked another year, and got a decent top 5, instead of making the playoffs and getting exposed by Calgary. Trades should have made last year, and this year both years management messed up TDL. This is not a good start, the trades Benning makes are random and many times keep fans going why????????????????????????

 

 

[jstewboy]

2 minutes ago, desiboynux4lifee******* said:

torts was right; infact, we fired torts too early. We should of kept him and tanked another year, and got a decent top 5, instead of making the playoffs and getting exposed by Calgary. Trades should have made last year, and this year both years management messed up TDL. This is not a good start, the trades Benning makes are random and many times keep fans going why????????????????????????

 

 

 

I love how you get in the spring Desi <3

[-AJ-]

46 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

You're right, but I think there are ways to pressure people out of an organization. Give them no ice time or sit them. Send guys down to the AHL. Buy them out. There are options and some would probably take the plunge and just do it if asked.

This is honestly and absolutely garbage way to treat your players. Can you imagine doing this to long-time Canucks like the Sedins, Burrows, and Edler? Unthinkable. On top of that, who would want to come to an organization that treats their players so poorly?

[Where'd Luongo?]

Just now, ajhockey said:

This is honestly and absolutely garbage way to treat your players. Can you imagine doing this to long-time Canucks like the Sedins, Burrows, and Edler? Unthinkable. On top of that, who would want to come to an organization that treats their players so poorly?

Sometimes you have to cut the fat. Everyone understands that and most teams do it eventually. I think lots of people would want to come to an organization that is rebuilding their top 6.

 

Think about that conversation: "Hey _____, we are rebuilding the Canucks and we want to have a skilled core with a hard working mentality. We think you fit that mold and we would like you to play on our first/second line, getting 17-20 minutes a night."

 

What's he going to say? You can offer a solid contract since you have money to spend and he is guaranteed playing time, what almost every young player wants. 

 

[Ghostsof1915]

Sorry, with Torts here, we missed the playoffs. As much as WD isn't liked here he at least got virtually the same group into the playoffs last year and improved stats improved over Torts in probably every stat. 

 

Torts was a moron, who refused to live in Canada, or reside here. Refused to attend practice. Given we're 1 point ahead of Columbus I wouldn't say Torts coaching or hockey knowledge is incredible. You don't need to be a NHL coach to notice the core is older and we're only now getting some youth. Maybe Desi is just upset we didn't have a chance at McDavid last year. BTW Desi how is Bo Sang doing?

Is he making us regret letting him go? 

[Dazzle]

41 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

Sometimes you have to cut the fat. Everyone understands that and most teams do it eventually. I think lots of people would want to come to an organization that is rebuilding their top 6.

 

Think about that conversation: "Hey _____, we are rebuilding the Canucks and we want to have a skilled core with a hard working mentality. We think you fit that mold and we would like you to play on our first/second line, getting 17-20 minutes a night."

 

What's he going to say? You can offer a solid contract since you have money to spend and he is guaranteed playing time, what almost every young player wants. 

 

What is the point in a discussion if you already have a set opinion made about the situation? A poster has already pointed out that it is bad business to treat your players that poorly, which will negatively affect how a free agent sees this team.

 

Your response to that is 'sometimes you have to cut the fat'. Yeah, this thread isn't about you trying to discuss anything. It's a thinly disguised thread about how management ''should've" traded the Sedins, Edler, Burrows and all the other players mentioned.

 

Are you really bringing in a new perspective here? NO.

[Where'd Luongo?]

2 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

What is the point in a discussion if you already have a set opinion made about the situation? A poster has already pointed out that it is bad business to treat your players that poorly, which will negatively affect how a free agent sees this team.

 

Your response to that is 'sometimes you have to cut the fat'. Yeah, this thread isn't about you trying to discuss anything. It's a thinly disguised thread about how management ''should've" traded the Sedins, Edler, Burrows and all the other players mentioned.

 

Are you really bringing in a new perspective here? NO.

The discussion part comes in when he had an opposing opinion followed by a question, to which I answered as best I could. Hence discussing two sides of an issue. 

 

I would think that a University student would understand this.

[19Nazzy91]

[Dazzle]

54 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

Sometimes you have to cut the fat. Everyone understands that and most teams do it eventually. I think lots of people would want to come to an organization that is rebuilding their top 6.

 

Think about that conversation: "Hey _____, we are rebuilding the Canucks and we want to have a skilled core with a hard working mentality. We think you fit that mold and we would like you to play on our first/second line, getting 17-20 minutes a night."

 

What's he going to say? You can offer a solid contract since you have money to spend and he is guaranteed playing time, what almost every young player wants. 

 

I'm not convinced at all that this above response to the point "This is a garbage way of treating your players" is equivalent to a discussion.

 

Looks like you've already made up your mind on what you want to say and you're just trying to justify why - without any intention of possibly changing your opinion.

 

Furthermore, where is your proof that 'lots of people' would want to come to an organization that is rebuilding?

 

Really? Weaksauce argument.

 

 

[Where'd Luongo?]

35 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Sorry, with Torts here, we missed the playoffs. As much as WD isn't liked here he at least got virtually the same group into the playoffs last year and improved stats improved over Torts in probably every stat. 

 

Torts was a moron, who refused to live in Canada, or reside here. Refused to attend practice. Given we're 1 point ahead of Columbus I wouldn't say Torts coaching or hockey knowledge is incredible. You don't need to be a NHL coach to notice the core is older and we're only now getting some youth. Maybe Desi is just upset we didn't have a chance at McDavid last year. BTW Desi how is Bo Sang doing?

Is he making us regret letting him go? 

You're right that we didn't make the playoffs that year, and that's when he wanted to make the change. The reason we made the playoffs the next year was due to the additions of Dorsett, Vrbata, Miller and Bonino.

[yoshiyoshi]

1 hour ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

You're right, but I think there are ways to pressure people out of an organization. Give them no ice time or sit them. Send guys down to the AHL. Buy them out. There are options and some would probably take the plunge and just do it if asked.

You need to remember that its not just a sports team it is also a business and the players are employees. Treat your employees badly and you will have trouble attracting new ones or keeping the ones you do get. Considering the small size of the NHL player pool getting a bad reputation would really kill your chances of attracting UFAs or keeping them and having to overpay people to get over that will just end up causing other problems. Such tactics should be used sparingly and as a last resort, and certainly not on a quarter of the team at the same time. Also remember that the contract they signed included the NTC or NMCs in exchange for a lower salary. What you are suggesting is effectively the same as breaking the contract which would also get you a reputation of not dealing in good faith with your players. It is a lot harder to rebuild a reputation than to lose it.

[Where'd Luongo?]

1 minute ago, Dazzle said:

I'm not convinced at all that this above response to the point "This is a garbage way of treating your players" is equivalent to a discussion.

 

Looks like you've already made up your mind on what you want to say and you're just trying to justify why - without any intention of possibly changing your opinion.

 

Furthermore, where is your proof that 'lots of people' would want to come to an organization that is rebuilding?

 

Really? Weaksauce argument.

 

 

O'Rielly, Pominville, Parise, Suter, Jokinen, Franson, Saad, Johansen, Talbot, Jagr, Schultz, Roy, Ribeiro, Hamilton, Lack, Ference..... You are crazy if you think players don't want to go to a team that puts them in a top role.

[BI3KSA-]

Saying the core is stale here was not a new revelation by Torts, it had been said many, many times before by analysts and folks on CDC/other places many times previous. It's very obvious he was right, and I'm sure he knew he was stating the obvious at the time, too. 

[Where'd Luongo?]

21 minutes ago, yoshiyoshi said:

You need to remember that its not just a sports team it is also a business and the players are employees. Treat your employees badly and you will have trouble attracting new ones or keeping the ones you do get. Considering the small size of the NHL player pool getting a bad reputation would really kill your chances of attracting UFAs or keeping them and having to overpay people to get over that will just end up causing other problems. Such tactics should be used sparingly and as a last resort, and certainly not on a quarter of the team at the same time. Also remember that the contract they signed included the NTC or NMCs in exchange for a lower salary. What you are suggesting is effectively the same as breaking the contract which would also get you a reputation of not dealing in good faith with your players. It is a lot harder to rebuild a reputation than to lose it.

Have you ever heard of a business that, when it starts to lose money and its stock price is falling fast, doesn't fire important people and hire some fresh minds with new ideas? 

 

It happens all the time. CEO's, Marketing Directors, etc. who have full time positions have their contracts terminated and they are replaced by other people in an effort to turn things around.

 

Companies that did this:

1) Apple

2) Chrysler

3) GM

4) Marvel

5) Sprint

6) Harley Davidson

7) Campbell's Soup

 

As you can see, these are all companies that did very well after being turned completely around from near death. They still attract many employees and their top positions are highly sought after.

[Where'd Luongo?]

1 minute ago, BI3KSA- said:

Saying the core is stale here was not a new revelation by Torts, it had been said many, many times before by analysts and folks on CDC/other places many times previous. It's very obvious he was right, and I'm sure he knew he was stating the obvious at the time, too. 

I know, my point was that when Linden was hired he chose not to believe it. As a result, it was a major factor in the firing of Tortorella who made it known that he felt it was stale. I think Linden should have taken his advice and the advice of many others as you mentioned and made the necessary moves to change.

[Dazzle]

2 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

O'Rielly, Pominville, Parise, Suter, Jokinen, Franson, Saad, Johansen, Talbot, Jagr, Schultz, Roy, Ribeiro, Hamilton, Lack, Ference..... You are crazy if you think players don't want to go to a team that puts them in a top role.

O'Rielly was acquired in a trade with Colorado. No say on destination.

 

Pominville - Minnesota Wild can't be considered a 'rebuilding team' - not like the Leafs or Oilers

 

Parise - Minnesota is his home state.

 

Suter - Minnesota was on the verge of being competitive when he joined. 2012-2013 was the first season when they made the playoffs. Furthermore, he's born in Wisconsin. Minnesota is not far from home.

 

Franson signed as a free agent in Buffalo. Big contract. One of the few players on your list that probably had control over where he went.

 

Saad - Really? He was traded from Chicago to Columbus. No say on destination.

 

Johansen - also traded. No say on destination.

 

Talbot - acquired in a trade with NYR to Edmonton. No say on destination.

 

Jagr - picked NJ first, but got traded to FLA, where he has blossomed. Not sure why he picked NJ. Maybe he chose it because it was rebuilding?

 

Schultz - He sure picked a rebuilding team, where he made "CHA-CHING". It's also backfired on him big time, especially signing that massive contract that has undoubtedly put extreme expectations on him.

 

Roy - Derek Roy? He's playing in Europe...

 

Riberio - really bud? He's on a playoff team right now. Go check him out.

 

Hamilton - Boston traded him to CGY. No say on destination.

 

Lack - traded to CAR for a 3rd round pick. No say on destination.

 

Ference - Free agent signing to Edmonton.  Perhaps a big paycheque? Nonetheless a rare player where he fits your argument.

 

Overall, you hit a few, but missed the rest. Do a better job researching.

[Where'd Luongo?]

Just now, Dazzle said:

O'Rielly was acquired in a trade with Colorado. No say on destination.

 

Pominville - Minnesota Wild can't be considered a 'rebuilding team' - not like the Leafs or Oilers

 

Parise - Minnesota is his home state.

 

Suter - Minnesota was on the verge of being competitive when he joined. 2012-2013 was the first season when they made the playoffs. Furthermore, he's born in Wisconsin. Minnesota is not far from home.

 

Franson signed as a free agent in Buffalo. Big contract. One of the few players on your list that probably had control over where he went.

 

Saad - Really? He was traded from Chicago to Columbus. No say on destination.

 

Johansen - also traded. No say on destination.

 

Talbot - acquired in a trade with NYR to Edmonton. No say on destination.

 

Jagr - picked NJ first, but got traded to FLA, where he has blossomed. Not sure why he picked NJ. Maybe he chose it because it was rebuilding?

 

Schultz - He sure picked a rebuilding team, where he made "CHA-CHING". It's also backfired on him big time, especially signing that massive contract that has undoubtedly put extreme expectations on him.

 

Roy - Derek Roy? He's playing in Europe...

 

Riberio - really bud? He's on a playoff team right now. Go check him out.

 

Hamilton - Boston traded him to CGY. No say on destination.

 

Lack - traded to CAR for a 3rd round pick. No say on destination.

 

Ference - Free agent signing to Edmonton.  Perhaps a big paycheque? Nonetheless a rare player where he fits your argument.

 

Overall, you hit a few, but missed the rest. Do a better job researching.

All of the Minnesota players joined a team that was in the bottom 4 of the conference in 2011/12.

 

Saad signed a contract with Columbus after getting traded.

Hamilton signed a contract with Calgary after getting traded.

Roy went to Vancouver because he was promised playing time, then to the Oilers because he was promised playing time.

Lack signed a contract with Carolina after getting traded.

Talbot signed a contract with Edmonton after getting traded.

Johansen signed a contract in Columbus before getting traded to Nashville.

 

Players go where they are given a chance to play minutes. That's what they want. Sorry I had to make you look silly but you refuse to stop putting yourself in these situations.