[Discussion] Fire Benning! Prediction, Whatever, Rant,

[JCM7]

7 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

With age comes wisdom, you grow older and get the right to complain full time. Besides it is not how smart you are, it's how you  use what you got. While this opening is a record of last year some poster's can take is as a prediction if that's they want to think, and they probably won't be far off

Age can bring a lot of things.  The benefit of experience can depend heavily on perspective.  Unless one has been living in a vacuum, it is safe to assume that they have seen and done a lot more at 50 than they had at 20.  That said, it is my opinion that a wise man feels that he knows less at 50 than he thought that he knew at 20 because every day and every experience has the potential to change what you think that you know.  Pick up a medical journal from 30 years ago and take a look at what doctors and scientists thought they knew.  These were not stupid people.  

 

7 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

As I stated there, it is what happened last year, a history lesson. No one needs to exceptionally bright to learn from the past, if that is what they want to do, unfortunately some just want to stick their heads in the sand and blindly follow whatever the media or the salesmen want them to believe. They don't think because all their thinking is done for them.

This is based on the assumption that history is repeating itself.  You are writing off what could very well be valid opinions based on this pretense.  If someone's opinion differs from the one which you have presented it doesn't necessarily mean that they are "burying their heads in the sand".  I'm quite certain that many people (myself included) would agree with the points that you are making if they felt that JB was

making the same mistakes that MG made or that progress wasn't being made however it is clear that many of us do not feel that way.

7 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

The contracts are brought up for the very reason you state, most poster's credit Benning for such a great job BECAUSE he had to deal with "clause" contracts, as if they are so horrible, but Benning gave out more in a shorter amount of time, so is he handcuffed now? Won't these contracts inhibit his ability to do the job? Many poster's say they did before, but not now?

AND Eriksson's is worse than Luongo's could ever be, BECAUSE, it is a signing bonus contract. He can't be traded to another team that might want a larger cap hit than the salary UNLESS the Canucks pony up with the signing bonus money.

I have stated reasons why I see all of the contracts that you mentioned were different than those handed out by MG.. The only one I didn't really address was Eriksson.  The other thing I didn't mention was the fact that I am fine with the Burrows deal.  Alex is not worth 4.5M right now, but he was certainly worth a lot more than 2M at the peak of his career when he took a massive hometown discount to help the team.  It's a shame that we fell a game short in 2011, but a big part of what gave us the chance to get so close was burrowed money from #14.

 

Alex is a smart, hardworking player.  He has been a very valuable part of this team but he would be the first to say that if he didn't play those years with Hank and Danny there is no way he would have put up the kind of offensive numbers he did.  He did a great job with the Sedins, but is nowhere near the caliber of Eriksson.  Eriksson has 2 30 goal seasons and those weren't playing with back to back Art Ross winners.  How many lines in the history of the NHL have had 2 of its 3 members lead the league in scoring in consecutive years?

 

Eriksson's style will allow him to play at a high level for a few more years.  That said, you're right that he probably won't be worth 6M at 37.  The biggest difference is the JB isn't leaving the prospect tank empty like MG did.  He is actively taking steps to ensure that carrying one inflated contract won't burry the team the way it did when MG got the boot.

 

I won't address the Eriksson/Kopitar thing as Jam126 already took care of that.

 

In regards to BB, I haven't seen a large enough sample size to make a fair assessment however it's generally safe to say that most scorers are more effective when someone is getting them the puck.

 

[kloubek]

9 hours ago, JCM7 said:

With the right line mates my gut tells me that Baer will be similar.  I could be way off the mark, but would it ever be great for the team if I am right.

 

I hope you are as well.  We need that top 6 talent.  Honestly, I'm not good with "gut feelings" when it comes to hockey players.  (I'm the guy who watched Iginla play in juniors and until his last year was convinced he wasn't going to make an impact in the NHL.)

 

I agree that he is showing more confidence with scoring, which is a great sign - especially since he already showed some ability that was more on the side of being a playmaker.  This says to me that he is shaping up to be a well-rounded offensive player, who has the ability to perform in a variety of scenarios and with different kinds of linemates. 

I think it is his manner of scoring that throws me off.  Despite what sites like The Hockey News imply, I have found his stickhandling to be good, but not at all exceptional.  I feel he really isn't a "flashy" player, and doesn't score many "oh wow" goals.  Usually such skills are indicative of the kinds of forwards who succeed in this league at the highest level, and I haven't really seen that of him.

 

To me, he's more a guy who anticipates the game well, which puts himself in good scoring positions.  He makes the on-the-fly moves and decisions that throws off defenders.  He controls and guards the puck well.  I guess in a way, all these traits are better than "flash".  Flash and all-out stickhandling can improve over time, but intelligence is a you-have-it-or-you-don't affair.  He also has good speed and a good release.  But overall, besides his ability to think the game, I find almost all his skills "good", but none of them particularly outstanding.  To me, he's the kind of player who will find success by how well rounded he is rather than riding on raw physical talent.  (Imagine a player in EA NHL Hockey who has a score of "85" in all areas, as opposed to being "99" in any one area).  He's a very stable player, but could still use a bit more muscle, as you can see he doesn't always have quite the ability to power into all areas he wants to be.
 

By all rights, his minimum ceiling should be an elite 2nd liner.  I'm just not sure he has that top end talent normally required to play a 1st line role. 

Here's hoping he does.

[R3aL]

On July 24, 2016 at 11:59 PM, Ghostsof1915 said:

Is Benning the six fingered man, and you have been studying for 20 years to have your revenge or something? 

Love the reference !

[JCM7]

18 hours ago, kloubek said:

To me, he's more a guy who anticipates the game well, which puts himself in good scoring positions.  He makes the on-the-fly moves and decisions that throws off defenders.  He controls and guards the puck well.  I guess in a way, all these traits are better than "flash".  Flash and all-out stickhandling can improve over time, but intelligence is a you-have-it-or-you-don't affair.

Raw skill, lack of hockey IQ = Zack Kassian.  

 

The NHL moves fast that the ability to read and react is half of the game.  The Sedins are great examples.  As good as they are, it's their ability to read the game that set them apart.  Daniel has a better than average shot and they are both decent stick handlers.  Neither of them are particularly good skaters.  They are both tougher than they often get credit for, but neither of them are exactly crushing guys on the forecheck either.

 

To be an elite player you have to be skilled for sure but hard work and intelligence can turn a good player into a great player.

[kloubek]

5 hours ago, JCM7 said:

Raw skill, lack of hockey IQ = Zack Kassian.  

 

The NHL moves fast that the ability to read and react is half of the game.  The Sedins are great examples.  As good as they are, it's their ability to read the game that set them apart.  Daniel has a better than average shot and they are both decent stick handlers.  Neither of them are particularly good skaters.  They are both tougher than they often get credit for, but neither of them are exactly crushing guys on the forecheck either.

 

To be an elite player you have to be skilled for sure but hard work and intelligence can turn a good player into a great player.

True on all accounts.  A player without hockey smarts have a tough time succeeding at the highest level anymore.  The game is faster and players don't have the same amount of time to think as they used to.  This is actually why I was (and still am) high on McCann.  He has noticeable hockey smarts, with obvious skill to match.  If he gets stronger, I'm confident he's going to be a really good player in this league.  I'd estimate his realization of being a top 3 player at more likely than not.

 

You mention the Sedins, who had may not have been great skaters, but their intelligence is off the charts, and they are clearly mobile and have excellent stickhandling.  Smarts AND skill = 1st line.  Obviously they are getting older and not putting up as many points, but I think part of it is the fact that the game is getting faster and they are having difficulty keeping up with that.  Lucky for them, they entered the league at a time when teams still hired goons and where speed wasn't as much of a factor. 

 

Sven's skating, stickhandling and shot are all good, but I don't think he has any outstanding skills.   It will be his intelligence and ability to see the game that dictates his ceiling, which I believe will eventually place him as a high end 2nd liner.  Considering we only gave up a 2nd round pick for him, I'd say that was a pretty savvy acquisition.

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, kloubek said:

True on all accounts.  A player without hockey smarts have a tough time succeeding at the highest level anymore.  The game is faster and players don't have the same amount of time to think as they used to.  This is actually why I was (and still am) high on McCann.  He has noticeable hockey smarts, with obvious skill to match.  If he gets stronger, I'm confident he's going to be a really good player in this league.  I'd estimate his realization of being a top 3 player at more likely than not.

 

You mention the Sedins, who had may not have been great skaters, but their intelligence is off the charts, and they are clearly mobile and have excellent stickhandling.  Smarts AND skill = 1st line.  Obviously they are getting older and not putting up as many points, but I think part of it is the fact that the game is getting faster and they are having difficulty keeping up with that.  Lucky for them, they entered the league at a time when teams still hired goons and where speed wasn't as much of a factor. 

 

Sven's skating, stickhandling and shot are all good, but I don't think he has any outstanding skills.   It will be his intelligence and ability to see the game that dictates his ceiling, which I believe will eventually place him as a high end 2nd liner.  Considering we only gave up a 2nd round pick for him, I'd say that was a pretty savvy acquisition.

So, you vote to keep Benning?  

[kloubek]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

So, you vote to keep Benning?  

This thread has been derailed repeatedly, but if you want to get back on track....

 

Benning has a plan.  Apparently he is handcuffed by ownership to keep the team competitive while rebuilding at the same time, and that's a tall order.  I haven't agreed with all the moves he's made, but the result so far is a team that is both more competitive and younger, as well as a prospect pool which may not have a lot of top end talent, but at least finally has some depth.

 

Final results will take another 2-3 years to be realized, but so far, yes - I think he's done an overall good job, given his directives.  I believe he's assembled a strong group of complimentary players, but my final opinion isn't going to be made until I see what he intends to do in order to replace the Sedins.  Getting rid of him right now after what he's done and before he has completed his plan would be a huge mistake.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, kloubek said:

This thread has been derailed repeatedly, but if you want to get back on track....

 

Benning has a plan.  Apparently he is handcuffed by ownership to keep the team competitive while rebuilding at the same time, and that's a tall order.  I haven't agreed with all the moves he's made, but the result so far is a team that is both more competitive and younger, as well as a prospect pool which may not have a lot of top end talent, but at least finally has some depth.

 

Final results will take another 2-3 years to be realized, but so far, yes - I think he's done an overall good job, given his directives.  I believe he's assembled a strong group of complimentary players, but my final opinion isn't going to be made until I see what he intends to do in order to replace the Sedins.  Getting rid of him right now after what he's done and before he has completed his plan would be a huge mistake.

Great post.  Getting replacements for the Twins comes from where?  

[higgyfan]

9 hours ago, JCM7 said:

Raw skill, lack of hockey IQ = Zack Kassian.  

 

The NHL moves fast that the ability to read and react is half of the game.  The Sedins are great examples.  As good as they are, it's their ability to read the game that set them apart.  Daniel has a better than average shot and they are both decent stick handlers.  Neither of them are particularly good skaters.  They are both tougher than they often get credit for, but neither of them are exactly crushing guys on the forecheck either.

 

To be an elite player you have to be skilled for sure but hard work and intelligence can turn a good player into a great player.

Agree with much of what you've said here.

 

Re: Kassian...I think (at times) he showed nice play-making skills and had some good hands.  One has to wonder how all the drinking effected his hockey sense.  Similar to a brain injury, the damage done by heavy use of alcohol may never diminish totally.   I guess time will tell for Zack; both in abstinence and in healing his brain of whatever damage it may have.

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

Agree with much of what you've said here.

 

Re: Kassian...I think (at times) he showed nice play-making skills and had some good hands.  One has to wonder how all the drinking effected his hockey sense.  Similar to a brain injury, the damage done by heavy use of alcohol may never diminish totally.   I guess time will tell for Zack; both in abstinence and in healing his brain of whatever damage it may have.

I never thought of that effect of alcohism.  Zack seems such a nice guy, I can't help routing for him, even now he's an Oiler.  

[kloubek]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

Great post.  Getting replacements for the Twins comes from where?  

Well that's the key, isn't it?  Replacing such elite talent is hard to do, even if a team has assets and prospects. We don't have many prospects with high end potential, nor do we have assets which are both expendable as well as valuable enough to bring back a player from another team who could slot into such a role. 

 

I think the best thing we can hope for is to convince talented UFAs to come here over the next couple of years, hope for the best with players like Boeser and Horvat, and understand that we're likely at best to be moving towards a team with balanced scoring through all the lines as opposed to having an elite line like we've experienced over the last decade.

[bleedblue2017]

On ‎2016‎-‎07‎-‎24 at 3:01 PM, TheGuardian_ said:

I wonder how many will see what this is?

 

Truly read my signature line and think.

Well I guess that is why when Linden and Benning took over they both said that this retooling/rebuilding will take about 3 years, the plan is to bring in character 24-30 year old guys to replace guys like Burr and the Sedins (maybe) and allow the young guns like Horvat, Baertchi, and Virtanen to mature and become the new cor. But of course this takes vision and patients, two things that you have obviously not thought about. So get used to middle of the road play, and no playoffs for a couple of more seasons, personally I am excited to watch our new young core grow and lead us back to the playoffs, when that happens I will be equally excited to watch you take your foot out of your mouth.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, bleedblue2017 said:

Well I guess that is why when Linden and Benning took over they both said that this retooling/rebuilding will take about 3 years, the plan is to bring in character 24-30 year old guys to replace guys like Burr and the Sedins (maybe) and allow the young guns like Horvat, Baertchi, and Virtanen to mature and become the new cor. But of course this takes vision and patients, two things that you have obviously not thought about. So get used to middle of the road play, and no playoffs for a couple of more seasons, personally I am excited to watch our new young core grow and lead us back to the playoffs, when that happens I will be equally excited to watch you take your foot out of your mouth.

So you don't want to fire Benning.  I don't want to fire him either, but I don't think our young core is as good as you.  JB needs to get us two elite scorers (young) to take over for the twins.  How does he do this?  Trade from strength: Tanev should get us one.  

[bleedblue2017]

Just now, Alflives said:

So you don't want to fire Benning.  I don't want to fire him either, but I don't think our young core is as good as you.  JB needs to get us two elite scorers (young) to take over for the twins.  How does he do this?  Trade from strength: Tanev should get us one.  

That is what patients is for, Trading for a guy that is 22-25 years old and can score consistently, will take a lot more than just Tanev. Virtanen, Baertchi, Horvat, Boeser, Granlund, these are the guys who in a couple of years will be exactly what we need, maybe even this year, Baertchi is very close, as is Horvat. There is no point in trading a valuable vet like Tanev, who might I add is our most reliable D-man, when our young guys are so close. To prove my point all you have to do is look at the Kings, Chicago, Florida, Tampa Bay, they rebuilt through the draft, and focused on developing their draft pics, this is what JB and Linden are doing, we will be very competitive soon, be patient, be excited, we will compete for the cup again soon.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, bleedblue2017 said:

That is what patients is for, Trading for a guy that is 22-25 years old and can score consistently, will take a lot more than just Tanev. Virtanen, Baertchi, Horvat, Boeser, Granlund, these are the guys who in a couple of years will be exactly what we need, maybe even this year, Baertchi is very close, as is Horvat. There is no point in trading a valuable vet like Tanev, who might I add is our most reliable D-man, when our young guys are so close. To prove my point all you have to do is look at the Kings, Chicago, Florida, Tampa Bay, they rebuilt through the draft, and focused on developing their draft pics, this is what JB and Linden are doing, we will be very competitive soon, be patient, be excited, we will compete for the cup again soon.

Alf likes your style and optimistic view.  I'm staking out my parade spot on Georgia.    

[kloubek]

48 minutes ago, Alflives said:

So you don't want to fire Benning.  I don't want to fire him either, but I don't think our young core is as good as you.  JB needs to get us two elite scorers (young) to take over for the twins.  How does he do this?  Trade from strength: Tanev should get us one.  

Not a fan of trading Tanev.   I feel we would be lit up if we did,  negating the extra scoring we would get from the winger we would get back.  I think when you have a defenseman who is as good as he is shutting down opponents,  you don't get rid of him. 

 

I never said our young core was good.   We just don't know at this point.   Horvat is clearly going to be a solid #2 center at minimum,  but other than that it's anyone's guess.   

 

I'm hopeful,  but not optimistic our young forwards will develop to where we have holes.  

 

Benning has at least two years to figure out how he's going to replace the Sedins.... Maybe a year or two longer if we are lucky enough to have them re-sign.  I actually think them signing another short contract will be important,  or we risk being unable to shelter our young players as they develop.

[JCM7]

8 hours ago, Alflives said:

Great post.  Getting replacements for the Twins comes from where?  

The Sedins are great players.  At their peak they may have been 2 of the top 5 or so forwards in the league.  We were very lucky to have them.  That said, they really struggled for their first few seasons.  Despite the fact that they were picked at #2 & #3 overall, there was no guarantee that they were ever going to be 1st line players never mind Art Ross winners.

 

My point in saying this is that you can't plan superstars.  Even if JB does everything in his power to put steer the team in the right direction, it could be a long time before we see another Henrik and Daniel or another Naslund or Bure.  What if the Sedins just weren't able to adapt to the NHL?  Brian Burke made a great move because the Sedins worked out but if they hadn't... It took Henrik 4 seasons (plus a lockout year) to score more than 42 points.  There were a lot of doubters and for good reason.

 

Unless you get exceptionally lucky and win the draft lottery in a year where someone like Crosby or McDavid are available all a GM can do is find guys with potential and put them in strong situations to succeed.

 

There is always the potential to supplement the line up with UFAs as an interim fix.  I think that the most sensible thing a GM can do is to make building a strong foundation his primary concern.

 

With a strong foundation, replacing the Sedins won't be an issue.  If the team is 1 or 2 pieces short of a cup contender, they will most likely go the UFA route.

[terrible.dee]

On 7/24/2016 at 2:54 PM, TheGuardian_ said:

Just thought I would get a jump on this now as I see it coming in a few months.

 

At the start of the season the Canucks will be near the top of the division, closer to the end of November they will start to slide, come January they will be fighting for a wild card spot, at the trade deadline they will be 4 to 6 points out and say they think they can still make it, even though there are 4 or more teams they have to leap frog.

 

Somewhere between November and the trade deadline this;

 

Statements will be made about competing for a play off spot.

Then about competing game by game.

Then a statement of confidence in the coach.

*Then the firing of the coach and hiring of the savior (who knows the young guys that aren't playing in the NHL).

 

At the trade deadline;

Statements about having no cap room to do deals.

The high cost of top line players. DUH!

Not a good enough return. (for a player at the end of the contract) because if they did that it would signal, to even the most dense fan, the playoffs are out of the question.

 

New ticket deals.

 

A huge amount of talk about Utica  and the players in Utica and Boser and OJ and Demko, with none of them playing a NHL minute.

I mean, does it really matter how well Utica does? The Marlies have been very good for a lot of years and TO still sucked.

 

Injuries will be blamed.

 

One of the reason's to fire JB is because he delayed and didn't do what he should have in his first year, REBUILD, instead of lying to the fans and saying management thought they were a competitive playoff team. Sure they surprised everyone in the NHL and then embarrassed themselves by letting little known 4th liner, Ferland, run them out of the rink in a classic one and done. Repeating the same stuff will shine light on their deficiencies as hockey people and magnify that they are nothing more than salesmen trying to squeeze the money out of your pocket by selling hope. Just watch and listen to the sales pitch over the next couple of months. Listen to what they said last year, then hit repeat.

 

The first year, a collapse could have happened and the fans would have been okay with it because of the Linden factor and that they are all rookies, of course the reward might have been a lottery pick as well. The second year, the sales team could have been selling youth. This year any improvement, be it player or team, at all.

 

Goaltending (Markstrom and Demko) and defense were already almost a total lock already, especially with the way Hutton and Tryamkin performed, FORWARDS, namely top three types should have been sought so that year three the team is only two years behind Calgary, Edmonton and Arizona instead of waiting to be the team between those teams and SJ, LA, Anaheim and Vegas until the next blow it up occurs.

 

 

  

 

Keep in mind most of the fans have already left, the only ones still here are serious kool aid drinkers, thus your -37, don't sweat it, you are mostly correct except it seems that Aqua man is to blame not Benning.

 

I would say your time line is accurate except for one major thing: I think that if Aqua doesn't get his playoff revenue he will need to sell the team, 

 

That is when we will see change.

[THERETOOL]

8 hours ago, terrible.dee said:

Keep in mind most of the fans have already left, the only ones still here are serious kool aid drinkers, thus your -37, don't sweat it, you are mostly correct except it seems that Aqua man is to blame not Benning.

 

I would say your time line is accurate except for one major thing: I think that if Aqua doesn't get his playoff revenue he will need to sell the team, 

 

That is when we will see change.

i agree with you .   truth is , this season could go either way .    People don't want to hear that though .  

 

I hope your wrong but my gut tells me you very well may be right .

 

I hope aqua man sells the team no matter what .

 

Would love too see a g.m like benning get to do his job without owners meddling 

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, Lulover88 said:

i agree with you .   truth is , this season could go either way .    People don't want to hear that though .  

 

I hope your wrong but my gut tells me you very well may be right .

 

I hope aqua man sells the team no matter what .

 

Would love too see a g.m like benning get to do his job without owners meddling 

Are you guys hearing more than just rumors about the team being for sale?  I know TL was asked about it a couple weeks ago, and he gave one of those carefully phrased political responses.   Plus, TL has openly lied before, so (in such important) matters what's stopping him from lying again?