Does $20.64 "living wage" solve the poverty in BC?

[Bo053]

8 hours ago, taxi said:

Grandparents maybe, depending on their individual circumstances. Parents not so much. In terms of effort, once again it's statically shown that baby boomers work far fewer hours and are far less productive in those hours than the younger generations. Meanwhile wages, for young people especially, are far lower once adjusted for cost of living.

 

If your grandfather was a farmer in the great depression, I'd agree with you. That certainly does not describe the average baby boomer though.

My dad's first job out of highschool was delivering pizzas, he got his P.Eng and eventually finished his career as president of project development at a mining company and is now retired with roughly 15 million dollars in assets not including his house.

Do you think he went from a f---ing pizza delivery guy to that by not working his ass off and putting in productive hours?

[riffraff]

44 minutes ago, Bo053 said:

My dad's first job out of highschool was delivering pizzas, he got his P.Eng and eventually finished his career as president of project development at a mining company and is now retired with roughly 15 million dollars in assets not including his house.

Do you think he went from a f---ing pizza delivery guy to that by not working his ass off and putting in productive hours?

This.  I know many boomer age professionals working past their retirement age partly because of the money they are now earning as principals but partly because they still enjoy what they are doing.  

Also worth noting that many boomers could be at the very least, first generation Canadians and with that faced their own legit challenges in forging their way.

 

generalizations are generalizations.  

 

Sure we could say there are more obstacles facing today's young workers/students but it is what it is and it's up to the individual to do what it takes.  There simply won't be any handouts in life.

 

i think it's also important to have an idea early on as to what is considered a personal success/goals/happiness etc.  If you're realistic, honest, and have a plan in place you try and stick to, most likely you'll feel fulfilled.  

[Jägermeister]

17 hours ago, Bo053 said:

lol work harder? you have millenials working as f---ing coffee baristas complaining that they should be getting paid enough to afford a house in Vancouver.

Younger generations are whiners and completely delusional.

And guess whose generation raised them to be like that?

Every generation has their bad seeds.  To think the whole of a generation is useless just comes across as whining and is completely delusional.

[SamJamIam]

12 hours ago, Bo053 said:

My dad's first job out of highschool was delivering pizzas, he got his P.Eng and eventually finished his career as president of project development at a mining company and is now retired with roughly 15 million dollars in assets not including his house.

Do you think he went from a f---ing pizza delivery guy to that by not working his ass off and putting in productive hours?

Sounds like someone doesn't understand statistics...

[taxi]

Wow...it's quite shocking how far in the sand people have their heads.

 

Really? Stating younger generations are entitled barristas who think they deserve houses? In fact, it's teachers, firemen, and even higher end professionals who cannot afford basic properties anymore. That's if that teacher can manage to find a job in the first place without having to get multiple masters degrees first.

 

People call millennials lazy, but their standards are higher than any generation before. They have to get higher school marks, higher SAT scores, excel in every aspect of their life to get the basic things that Baby boomers had. If you look at the standards for SAT tests, they've gotten progressively harder over time. The reason, students are working harder and blowing away the old standards from previous generations. Look at things from a sports perspective. Look at the rookies coming into the NHL now. Look how seasoned they are. How hard they've trained. How physically developed they are. Now look at the average player from the early 1980s. An average rookie now would blow away most superstars in their prime. These are the new standards. This is the new reality for young people. 

 

To be clear, I'm not a baby boomer or a millennial. I'm in my late 30s, and in a position to now hire others. If I had the choice between hiring a baby boomer and a millennial, it would be no choice. Yes, the millennial would look at their phone through the day, but their ability to get things actually done would far exceed the baby boomer. The work ethic, ability to multi-task, and ability to process knowledge of younger people far exceeds that of baby boomers. For baby boomers getting a University degree was a large accomplishment. For young people it's a pre-requisite to a crappy entry level job. 

 

The simple fact of the matter is that there has never been a generation that has done less work, earned more money, and saved less in the process than the baby boomers.

[taxi]

13 hours ago, Bo053 said:

My dad's first job out of highschool was delivering pizzas, he got his P.Eng and eventually finished his career as president of project development at a mining company and is now retired with roughly 15 million dollars in assets not including his house.

Do you think he went from a f---ing pizza delivery guy to that by not working his ass off and putting in productive hours?

We are talking about generations as a whole. There are plenty of individuals from every generation who've worked hard and excelled because of it. But what I do know is this, it would take even more work today to excel than it did for your dad to. In fact, the opportunity to work his way up from delivering pizzas to owning a successful company might not exist anymore. The cost of property, rents, labour, etc.. is far higher than it was 30 years ago. To get this thread back on topic, starting a business now is much harder than it was 30 years ago, and raising the cost of labour won't help.

[taxi]

17 hours ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

What if they were loggers? Hand falling or axe chopping? Now it's all processor. What about mining with carts full of ore instead of modern day shovels and haul trucks. 

 

 But I will say that inflation is much greater so even though I make fantastic money, it stretches a &^@# of a lot less than it did 25-50 years ago. So you're right about there. 

Logging and minning are very much the same as they were 30 years ago. Those jobs are physically demanding now, and were back then. We've had automated machines and trucks for a while now. If you want to go back to the turn of the century, yes those were much harder jobs then, but that's now what we are talking about. 

 

Also, while the kind of jobs you are talking about were hard and remain hard. The young people doing them today get paid far less to do them. The money they make won't afford them a property. Even in smaller cities like Kelowna the price of property is ridiculous. Young people also get far less job security and far fewer benefits than the generation before. 

[taxi]

1 hour ago, Jägermeister said:

And guess whose generation raised them to be like that?

Every generation has their bad seeds.  To think the whole of a generation is useless just comes across as whining and is completely delusional.

I don't think any generation is useless. Some just have it harder than others. It is much harder for millennials to not only succeed but have "basic" things like a full time job, useful degree, property, family, etc... than it was for baby boomers. 

 

It's a fact that the baby boomers had it much easier than any generation before or after them. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

15 minutes ago, taxi said:

Wow...it's quite shocking how far in the sand people have their heads.

Speak for yourself.  I've never seen a bunch of lazier people.  Hard work and work ethic have nothing to do with everything you followed up the rest of your post with. No one is denying how efficient young people can be due to technology advances.

 

Take a baby boomer in their early 20's vs a millennial in their early 20's.

Give them each the same shovel and see which one digs a ditch faster?

 

 

 

[riffraff]

20 minutes ago, taxi said:

Wow...it's quite shocking how far in the sand people have their heads.

 

Really? Stating younger generations are entitled barristas who think they deserve houses? In fact, it's teachers, firemen, and even higher end professionals who cannot afford basic properties anymore. That's if that teacher can manage to find a job in the first place without having to get multiple masters degrees first.

 

People call millennials lazy, but their standards are higher than any generation before. They have to get higher school marks, higher SAT scores, excel in every aspect of their life to get the basic things that Baby boomers had. If you look at the standards for SAT tests, they've gotten progressively harder over time. The reason, students are working harder and blowing away the old standards from previous generations. Look at things from a sports perspective. Look at the rookies coming into the NHL now. Look how seasoned they are. How hard they've trained. How physically developed they are. Now look at the average player from the early 1980s. An average rookie now would blow away most superstars in their prime. These are the new standards. This is the new reality for young people. 

 

To be clear, I'm not a baby boomer or a millennial. I'm in my late 30s, and in a position to now hire others. If I had the choice between hiring a baby boomer and a millennial, it would be no choice. Yes, the millennial would look at their phone through the day, but their ability to get things actually done would far exceed the baby boomer. The work ethic, ability to multi-task, and ability to process knowledge of younger people far exceeds that of baby boomers. For baby boomers getting a University degree was a large accomplishment. For young people it's a pre-requisite to a crappy entry level job. 

 

The simple fact of the matter is that there has never been a generation that has done less work, earned more money, and saved less in the process than the baby boomers.

Hey-oh!

 

[taxi]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Speak for yourself.  I've never seen a bunch of lazier people.  Hard work and work ethic have nothing to do with everything you followed up the rest of your post with. No one is denying how efficient young people can be due to technology advances.

 

Take a baby boomer in their early 20's vs a millennial in their early 20's.

Give them each the same shovel and see which one digs a ditch faster?

 

 

 

Then why are the sports rookies now working so much harder than the generation before them? Why are the SATs harder? Why is a University degree the equivalent of a highschool diploma? Why does it cost half a million dollars to buy an entry level condo? Why does it take 5 years for teachers and firemen to find full time permanent positions? 

 

The standards for young people are ridiculous these days. I'm sorry but your made up anecdotal evidence about digging a ditch doesn't hold up in the face of facts. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

11 minutes ago, taxi said:

Then why are the sports rookies now working so much harder than the generation before them? Why are the SATs harder? Why is a University degree the equivalent of a highschool diploma? Why does it cost half a million dollars to buy an entry level condo? Why does it take 5 years for teachers and firemen to find full time permanent positions? 

 

The standards for young people are ridiculous these days. I'm sorry but your made up anecdotal evidence about digging a ditch doesn't hold up in the face of facts. 

Sports have grown in viewership and popularity,  now instead of 1 in every 1000 Canadian making the NHL, it's 1 in every 10,000.  Globalism has made the working environment much more competitive in north America. 

 

But entry to the work force and having high standards has nothing to do with hard work and work ethic. 

 

I went to school and got a degree that allowed me to enter my profession,  My dad, being a farmer was born into it and did not have to go past grade 12.  Does that mean I've worked harder?

 

I may be smarter than him in certain areas but my education and profession means nothing when comparing the level of how hard the work we put in is. 

[taxi]

3 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Sports have grown in viewership and popularity,  now instead of 1 in every 1000 Canadian making the NHL, it's 1 in every 10,000.  Globalism has made the working environment much more competitive in north America. 

 

But entry to the work force and having high standards has nothing to do with hard work and work ethic. 

 

I went to school and got a degree that allowed me to enter my profession,  My dad, being a farmer was born into it and did not have to go past grade 12.  Does that mean I've worked harder?

 

I may be smarter than him in certain areas but my education and profession means nothing when comparing the level of how hard the work we put in is. 

Once again individual examples mean nothing. Your dad being a farmer and you going to school has absolutely nothing to do with this argument.

 

What is relevant is that even to be a farmer now, it's much harder. The start up costs of property, machinery, and licensing are exponentially higher than they were 30 years ago. If you wanted to start a small farm operation on the outskirts of Vancouver, it'd be very difficult. 

 

You do agree that things are more competitive and people have to work harder to succeed now than they did 30 years ago?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

24 minutes ago, taxi said:

Once again individual examples mean nothing. Your dad being a farmer and you going to school has absolutely nothing to do with this argument.

 

What is relevant is that even to be a farmer now, it's much harder. The start up costs of property, machinery, and licensing are exponentially higher than they were 30 years ago. If you wanted to start a small farm operation on the outskirts of Vancouver, it'd be very difficult. 

 

You do agree that things are more competitive and people have to work harder to succeed now than they did 30 years ago?

Harder entry/start up does not have anything to do with working harder.... You do realize that don't you?

 

Working harder revolves around working conditions and work ethic. You've done nothing but state population and economy growth side effects.  The two are completely different.

[taxi]

17 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Harder entry/start up does not have anything to do with working harder.... You do realize that don't you?

 

Working harder revolves around working conditions and work ethic. You've done nothing but state population and economy growth side effects.  The two are completely different.

No. It takes hard work just to gain a foothold now. Then once you are in, things remain competitive as there is no job security for young people. Once they get a job the reward is also far less, as their pay is lower than it was for the generation before and the cost of living and housing is far greater. 

 

Also, why do people keep talking about baby boomers like they were all old timey coal workers from the 1920s? That in no way describes the average baby boomer experience or working conditions. Construction and labour working conditions are largely the same as they were 30 years ago. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

25 minutes ago, taxi said:

No. It takes hard work just to gain a foothold now. Then once you are in, things remain competitive as there is no job security for young people. Once they get a job the reward is also far less, as their pay is lower than it was for the generation before and the cost of living and housing is far greater. 

Hard work is not required to gain a foothold.  Canada's economy is growing, not decreasing, so much so that we need immigrant to be brought in to fill the job market.  The job market just wants competent workers.  You need to broaden your horizon, there's more to canada than just Vancouver.  If you don't like the job market or the cost of living.....Move, it's a lot cheaper elsewhere. 

 

25 minutes ago, taxi said:

Also, why do people keep talking about baby boomers like they were all old timey coal workers from the 1920s? That in no way describes the average baby boomer experience or working conditions. Construction and labour working conditions are largely the same as they were 30 years ago. 

Baby boomers are 55-75, technology advancements have evolved drastically over that time.  Heck they've change drastically since I was in school.  

[Kragar]

41 minutes ago, taxi said:

Then why are the sports rookies now working so much harder than the generation before them? Why are the SATs harder? Why is a University degree the equivalent of a highschool diploma? Why does it cost half a million dollars to buy an entry level condo? Why does it take 5 years for teachers and firemen to find full time permanent positions? 

 

The standards for young people are ridiculous these days. I'm sorry but your made up anecdotal evidence about digging a ditch doesn't hold up in the face of facts. 

In part because the high school diploma has been watered down and is not worth what it was.  For too many people, it is almost a participation award, as a rising number of kids are being graduated without the necessary basic math and language skills.

 

Much of what you have posted here is generally accurate, which I was surprised to discover, but it looks like the argument is over different things.

 

I can agree with you that it is more difficult for millennials now, as you suggest.  However, because they need to work harder to get that same success that was easier before does not mean that they are working harder.  They just aren't having the same success.

 

Borders are more open than before, so there is greater competition.  Social engineering efforts and other factors have led to a trend towards a higher ratio of part-time to full-time jobs being available.  Obviously, technology has an impact on what kind of jobs are available, and millennials' exposure to tech has given them a leg up on their older competition.

 

Young people also tend to have unrealistic expectations out of life.  Increasingly they want the home ASAP, new cars, and regular tech upgrades, along with going to restaurants, Starbucks, and bars more often, without having the income to support it all.  Their middle-class parents typically had to wait years for that to happen.  This impacts their ability (or perception thereof) to start a family.  Debt is getting out of control, and debt is a huge impact on anyone's ability to build wealth.

 

It's not necessarily their fault that they feel this way... arguably it can be pegged to how they were raised.

[taxi]

6 minutes ago, Kragar said:

In part because the high school diploma has been watered down and is not worth what it was.  For too many people, it is almost a participation award, as a rising number of kids are being graduated without the necessary basic math and language skills.

 

Much of what you have posted here is generally accurate, which I was surprised to discover, but it looks like the argument is over different things.

 

I can agree with you that it is more difficult for millennials now, as you suggest.  However, because they need to work harder to get that same success that was easier before does not mean that they are working harder.  They just aren't having the same success.

 

Borders are more open than before, so there is greater competition.  Social engineering efforts and other factors have led to a trend towards a higher ratio of part-time to full-time jobs being available.  Obviously, technology has an impact on what kind of jobs are available, and millennials' exposure to tech has given them a leg up on their older competition.

 

Young people also tend to have unrealistic expectations out of life.  Increasingly they want the home ASAP, new cars, and regular tech upgrades, along with going to restaurants, Starbucks, and bars more often, without having the income to support it all.  Their middle-class parents typically had to wait years for that to happen.  This impacts their ability (or perception thereof) to start a family.  Debt is getting out of control, and debt is a huge impact on anyone's ability to build wealth.

 

It's not necessarily their fault that they feel this way... arguably it can be pegged to how they were raised.

Young people are not the ones primarily in debt though. Baby boomers despite having more economic advantages than any other generation are racking up huge debts. They are creating major economic problems and passing the bill to younger generations. Yes, I agree that many millennials have learned bad habits from their baby boomer parents.

[Alflives]

28 minutes ago, taxi said:

Young people are not the ones primarily in debt though. Baby boomers despite having more economic advantages than any other generation are racking up huge debts. They are creating major economic problems and passing the bill to younger generations. Yes, I agree that many millennials have learned bad habits from their baby boomer parents.

Do you see a lot of Boomers selling off their houses (liquidating assets) and spending that money on their retirement years, rather than bequeathing any to their children?

[Kragar]

1 hour ago, taxi said:

Young people are not the ones primarily in debt though. Baby boomers despite having more economic advantages than any other generation are racking up huge debts. They are creating major economic problems and passing the bill to younger generations. Yes, I agree that many millennials have learned bad habits from their baby boomer parents.

Depends on the debt.  Younger people are less likely to have a mortgage due to their age and income, but more likely to have credit card and car debt... both of which are far worse, from a wealth building perspective.

 

Edit: I found a more recent credit card data source which counters my above comment.  However, ability to pay is still a critical factor.  People (and governments) need to learn to live more within their means.

 

Boomers have better income and credit ratings on average to take on more debt.  Aside from government debt, I'm not clear how boomers are passing the bill to younger generations.