Mustapha Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Alflives said: The trades do require skills and brains though. No everyone is able to be a tradesman. There will always be a large portion of society who are not able to do much more than the simplest of jobs. Maybe for those, the government could top up their monthly earnings, providing the person is actually working? If you are referring to those with illnesses or disabilities, I can see your point. However, it is not the government's role to provide income for those who don't seek self improvement or make poor choices in life. A lot of poverty is self inflicted. Capitalism is all about providing a service or product for compensation. If your service happens to be unskilled labour (which is of relatively low value) it would be ridiculous to expect compensation similar to the services of someone with skills in demand. I am not denying that there are 'unfair' market forces, but there is still more economic mobility in the West than anywhere else, so practical advice would be to spend time and effort identifying a skill in demand, acquiring that skill and pursuing employment. Easier said than done, sure, but its a better plan than whining for the government to articifially raise the wage on your minimum wage job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, Mustapha said: If you are referring to those with illnesses or disabilities, I can see your point. However, it is not the government's role to provide income for those who don't seek self improvement or make poor choices in life. A lot of poverty is self inflicted. Capitalism is all about providing a service or product for compensation. If your service happens to be unskilled labour (which is of relatively low value) it would be ridiculous to expect compensation similar to the services of someone with skills in demand. I am not denying that there are 'unfair' market forces, but there is still more economic mobility in the West than anywhere else, so practical advice would be to spend time and effort identifying a skill in demand, acquiring that skill and pursuing employment. Easier said than done, sure, but its a better plan than whining for the government to articifially raise the wage on your minimum wage job. amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 9 minutes ago, Mustapha said: If you are referring to those with illnesses or disabilities, I can see your point. However, it is not the government's role to provide income for those who don't seek self improvement or make poor choices in life. A lot of poverty is self inflicted. Capitalism is all about providing a service or product for compensation. If your service happens to be unskilled labour (which is of relatively low value) it would be ridiculous to expect compensation similar to the services of someone with skills in demand. I am not denying that there are 'unfair' market forces, but there is still more economic mobility in the West than anywhere else, so practical advice would be to spend time and effort identifying a skill in demand, acquiring that skill and pursuing employment. Easier said than done, sure, but its a better plan than whining for the government to articifially raise the wage on your minimum wage job. Exactly. Economic Darwinism. If you cannot find your place in a changing world or take steps to adapt to it, you are going to struggle to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 48 minutes ago, Mustapha said: If you are referring to those with illnesses or disabilities, I can see your point. However, it is not the government's role to provide income for those who don't seek self improvement or make poor choices in life. A lot of poverty is self inflicted. Capitalism is all about providing a service or product for compensation. If your service happens to be unskilled labour (which is of relatively low value) it would be ridiculous to expect compensation similar to the services of someone with skills in demand. I am not denying that there are 'unfair' market forces, but there is still more economic mobility in the West than anywhere else, so practical advice would be to spend time and effort identifying a skill in demand, acquiring that skill and pursuing employment. Easier said than done, sure, but its a better plan than whining for the government to articifially raise the wage on your minimum wage job. I think we agree. I'm talking about able bodied and fully capable people, who are just not talented or skilled enough to get paid more than minimum wage. The government, providing these people are employed, could top up their monthly earnings. Society should take care of the simple minded and disabled, but maybe there are jobs for those people too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Alflives said: The trades do require skills and brains though. No everyone is able to be a tradesman. There will always be a large portion of society who are not able to do much more than the simplest of jobs. Maybe for those, the government could top up their monthly earnings, providing the person is actually working? The word intelligence is a tricky thing. What actually makes someone "smart". There are a lot of people who did not excel well academically, but can run a very profitable trades business. There are people excelled academically but cannot run themselves. The number of people incapable of finding a well paying profession is less than your think. The issue is often motivation. People need to be self-motivated, but society also needs to provide people incentive and justly reward them for their work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 22 minutes ago, taxi said: The word intelligence is a tricky thing. What actually makes someone "smart". There are a lot of people who did not excel well academically, but can run a very profitable trades business. There are people excelled academically but cannot run themselves. The number of people incapable of finding a well paying profession is less than your think. The issue is often motivation. People need to be self-motivated, but society also needs to provide people incentive and justly reward them for their work. I don't believe I said "intelligence". It's about those who are not able (for what ever reason) to keep decent paying jobs, and get stuck in the minimum wage ones. Rather than increase minimum wage, why not have the government top up those persons' monthly wage, providing the person is working? Do this only for those who are actually working though. Those, who are able (but are not working) would get less. I see this as rewarding those who choose to work, even though they only earn minimum wage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustapha Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Alflives said: I think we agree. I'm talking about able bodied and fully capable people, who are just not talented or skilled enough to get paid more than minimum wage. The government, providing these people are employed, could top up their monthly earnings. Society should take care of the simple minded and disabled, but maybe there are jobs for those people too? How is an able-bodied capable person unable to learn a new skill? I had mentioned the trades earlier, you do not need to be a rocket scientist to apprentice as a tradesperson, just ablebodied and capable, as you described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 39 minutes ago, Mustapha said: How is an able-bodied capable person unable to learn a new skill? I had mentioned the trades earlier, you do not need to be a rocket scientist to apprentice as a tradesperson, just ablebodied and capable, as you described. Plumbers maybe? Seriously, these masters of their trades need some talent. Do you want a poor electrician wiring your house, or a poor mason making your chimney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 55 minutes ago, Alflives said: Plumbers maybe? Seriously, these masters of their trades need some talent. Do you want a poor electrician wiring your house, or a poor mason making your chimney? That's why they apprentice, Alf. Doctors don't come out of med school ready to start dong surgery by themselves. It takes some time to build up the necessary skills. Gaining new skills is not a quick fix, and proficiency takes some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 3 hours ago, Kragar said: That's why they apprentice, Alf. Doctors don't come out of med school ready to start dong surgery by themselves. It takes some time to build up the necessary skills. Gaining new skills is not a quick fix, and proficiency takes some time. Not everyone who apprentices to be a craftsman has the skill to become one. Sure, they might have the desire, and they might work hard too, but they still need the talent, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etsen3 Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 The effect of minimum wage increases on prices is overstated I think (aka scare tactics). Sure it will affect costs, but if you think of a large corporation, the proportion of a budget used for minimum wage employees' salaries is miniscule compared to all the other expenses. I agree that something will need to be done to help smaller businesses, especially in certain industries such as restaurants. But if people who can afford to go out to eat have to pay a tiny bit more money for a nice meal so others can survive, I think it's a fair trade off. I think even people making under a living wage right now will be more than happy to have a few percentage points increased cost of living (if any increase happens at all) if it means a massive raise for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 1 minute ago, etsen3 said: The effect of minimum wage increases on prices is overstated I think. Sure it will affect costs, but if you think of a large corporation, the proportion of a budget used for minimum wage employees' salaries is miniscule compared to all the other expenses. I agree that something will need to be done to help smaller businesses, especially in certain industries such as restaurants. But if people who can afford to go out to eat have to pay a tiny bit more money for a nice meal so others can survive, I think it's a fair trade off. I think even people making under a living wage right now will be more than happy to have a few percentage points increased cost of living (if any increase happens at all) if it means a massive raise for them. What's living wage got to do with minimum wage? Shouldn't people wanting to live in Vancouver (for example) who earn minimum wage, think about moving where minimum wage coverers their cost of living? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 16 hours ago, Alflives said: Not everyone who apprentices to be a craftsman has the skill to become one. Sure, they might have the desire, and they might work hard too, but they still need the talent, don't you think? Depends on the trade. I suspect that framers and general carpenters need less skill than cabinet makers and furniture makers. The opportunities out there are more than just trades, although that's a good example for better income, as more and more people go to college than trade schools it seems, so there is less competition. The point is, if someone is able-bodied, it should not be that big of a stretch to improve their skills to get a better job than one that pays minimum wage. The government has retraining programs, too. I'd much rather see tax dollars going to help people improve themselves than to see the money to work as a disincentive to improve their lot in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 2 hours ago, etsen3 said: The effect of minimum wage increases on prices is overstated I think (aka scare tactics). Sure it will affect costs, but if you think of a large corporation, the proportion of a budget used for minimum wage employees' salaries is miniscule compared to all the other expenses. I agree that something will need to be done to help smaller businesses, especially in certain industries such as restaurants. But if people who can afford to go out to eat have to pay a tiny bit more money for a nice meal so others can survive, I think it's a fair trade off. I think even people making under a living wage right now will be more than happy to have a few percentage points increased cost of living (if any increase happens at all) if it means a massive raise for them. Yes, large corps can absorb the costs more, but most people work for small businesses. Especially in Canada, where it is about 70% of the workforce. I agree that McDonalds would survive and make things work easily with a modest price increase, like you suggest. But smaller businesses would have to raise prices higher to reach the same benefit, risking losing more business to the big corps. Also, profit margins on smaller businesses tend to be smaller, so there is less room for risk. Since Canada depends so much on small businesses, I don't agree that a wage hike is the best solution. I couldn't find something for Canada, but the below applies to the US. Since there are more employed by small businesses, the results up there could be even more significant. Quote In a recent analysis, the Employment Policies Institute used this data to determine the size of a typical minimum-wage employer. Contrary to the rhetoric of organized labor and its allies, the vast majority of people earning the minimum wage aren’t working at large corporations with 1,000 or more employees. Roughly half the minimum-wage workforce is employed at businesses with fewer than 100 employees, and 40% are at very small businesses with fewer than 50 employees. https://www.epionline.org/oped/who-really-employs-minimum-wage-workers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattJVD Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 On 27/03/2017 at 7:24 AM, CanuckinEdm said: Anyone that thinks raising the minimum wage to crazy heights will help is just stupid. If a Mcdonalds worker makes at minimum $15.00 or $20.00 that just means a burger fries and a drink will now be $12.00 or $17.00 everything will go up accordingly. It just pushes the poverty line from whatever minimum wage is now to whatever the wage will be. Or they substitue away from labour towards capital. I went into a McDonalds when they had their free coffees earlier this year (I'm pretty cheap). They have touch screen keoisks that take your order! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 On 2017-04-07 at 1:52 PM, Mustapha said: How is an able-bodied capable person unable to learn a new skill? I had mentioned the trades earlier, you do not need to be a rocket scientist to apprentice as a tradesperson, just ablebodied and capable, as you described. You need to "want it" seld motivation and an an independent work ethic is something one is born with 99% of the time imo. You can't teach or learn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 3 hours ago, riffraff said: You need to "want it" seld motivation and an an independent work ethic is something one is born with 99% of the time imo. You can't teach or learn it. I half agree. Yes, you absolutely need to want it. But, IMO, the motivation and work ethic is something we get from those who influence our lives. Maybe "born into" is a better way to put it, if those influences are family members, but teachers and mentors can also help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucks.brad Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 nope. this does not solve the problem. throwing $20.64 as a minimum wage will only push the costs of goods up. not a viable solution at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 39 minutes ago, Kragar said: I half agree. Yes, you absolutely need to want it. But, IMO, the motivation and work ethic is something we get from those who influence our lives. Maybe "born into" is a better way to put it, if those influences are family members, but teachers and mentors can also help with that. I don't disagree with that. My parents instilled the value of a work ethic be it school, sports, etc. but I have seen many a toiling parent with a layabout kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 3 hours ago, canucks.bradley said: nope. this does not solve the problem. throwing $20.64 as a minimum wage will only push the costs of goods up. not a viable solution at all I agree ... We need to give homeless / unemployed... free foam mattresses.... free pop up tents... and have free soup kitchens on every street... That is what i want to see.... that would fix things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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