SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 12 hours ago, Alflives said: Is Messam’s situation caused by the sexual relations, the taping of the sex, or both? From what’s been reported, it’s the taping. The sex was consensual. The video recording was not. That would be criminal voyeurism. The woman went to police in April of this year after she was told (by someone) that Messam had made a video recording. The actual sexual encounter happened sometime in November of 2016. Sounds pretty bad. It would appear that she was secretly recorded without her knowledge or consent. And she only learned about it more than a year and a half later, at which point it sounds like she went straight to the cops. Definitely little reason to doubt her story based on the details released so far. The statement from police really seems to suggest the they already have the tape (and/or some other evidence) that would prove the recording happened. Police somehow have been able to confirm that the recording wasn’t posted anywhere. This would seem to suggest it remained in Messam’s possession. Also, they’ve brought charges against him, which would obviously require more evidence than just a complainant who told police she suspected there might be a tape somewhere. That would be enough for them to start investigating, but I seriously doubt they’d bring criminal charges unless the investigation uncovered actual evidence of the recording. And given the timeline, it really seems highly unlikely that this victim was lying about her not consenting to the recording. If she knew about the recording and had consented to being taped, and now just wanted to mess the guy up after the fact (even as rare and unlikely as that kind of thing would be), why would she wait nearly two years before acting? Doesn’t make sense. She’d have zero guarantees Messam would hold onto the recording for that long. And if there was any kind of ongoing issue between them (“jilted lover,” etc), Messam could have easily deleted the recording to protect himself. As an aside, I’m always a bit surprised how quickly these kinds of topics on CDC seem to veer toward discussions about false accusations, the damage to the alleged perpetrator’s reputation, and “innocent until proven guilty” posts. Only around 2% of sexually related criminal charges are proven to be false allegations. And as few as 5% of victims ever report sexually based crimes to the police. It really should be our default reaction to believe these women when they come forward. And that belief really shouldn’t be seen as some kind of lefty feminazi postion (although I’ll wear that label proudly if anyone wants to toss it my way). There’s really no good reason for anyone to suspect this complainant is just making it up. Sure, false accusations happen, but the odds are really low. Especially in this case, where the details certainly don’t seem to support the idea that this woman is just some “opportunist” looking to “cash in” or “ruin a man’s life.” Also, regarding the “innocent until proven guilty” thing, it’s completely within the rights of an employer in Canada to terminate for cause if an employee, especially one with a prominent or public position, is charged with a serious crime, and the employer has reason to believe that the charges will become public and damage their reputation, or there’s a high likelihood the employee will be convicted. The Messam situation meets those standards. And that’s not even taking into account team and league codes of conduct or the CFL’s recent policy on women. And honestly, based on the information that’s been released so far, it really sounds like Messam is just another creep who secretly records women without their consent and then keeps the videos for his jollies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejazz97 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 17 hours ago, Tony Romo said: He was our back up and fumbled every third carry, doesn’t effect us. More excited for Thigpen/Mason. Wish we hadn't traded him away a few years back, though. That was a horrible deal and Messam was in his prime. If this is true, though. Yikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 Great post, Sid. I thought the same thing: "why would she wait"?. Also, the point you've made about employers responding to such charges. Most importantly, the default setting to believe these accusations when investigations lead to charges. It generally indicates that there's at least something there...sure, there are times that they get it wrong but we can't count on that. Innocence must also be "proven" at that point because it's a crime with a victim who should also be afforded the same "innocent until proven guilty" mindset. Seems fair. If you lean toward the victim being guilty of fabricating the story, that seems equally unfair. Yes, we should wait for the outcome to "decide" but, in the meantime, awareness is generated and it shines a light on what is/is not appropriate. Messam's faced suspensions and disciplinary actions for some time now....it indicates there may be some issues that he needs to address. Doesn't make him "guilty", but hints that he may be making some bad decisions. At the very least, seems he's not always used the best judgement and it may be time for some self reflection. Being fired will give him the opportunity for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastal.view Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 13 hours ago, gurn said: Hopefully not by the crown, police or prosecuting attorney. Possible But still no conviction, thus the whole innocent till proven guilty. Supposed to mean something. that is in the eyes of the law only though just because someone is not convicted does not mean they are innocent so let's not be naive about how the legal system operates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 20 minutes ago, coastal.view said: that is in the eyes of the law only though just because someone is not convicted does not mean they are innocent so let's not be naive about how the legal system operates And just because they are convicted doesn't mean they are guilty either. messed up world huh? My main issue is the way news of charges is spread like wildfire and news of innocence is like 2 crickets chirping in a wind storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 6 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said: And given the timeline, it really seems highly unlikely that this victim was lying about her not consenting to the recording. Only around 2% of sexually related criminal charges are proven to be false allegations. And as few as 5% of victims ever report sexually based crimes to the police. 1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said: Most importantly, the default setting to believe these accusations when investigations lead to charges. Innocence must also be "proven" at that point because it's a crime with a victim who should also be afforded the same "innocent until proven guilty" mindset. Seems fair. If you lean toward the victim being guilty of fabricating the story, that seems equally unfair. Yes, we should wait for the outcome to "decide" but, in the meantime, awareness is generated and it shines a light on what is/is not appropriate. I really just want to respond to these very good points: 1) I am not in any way saying the victim is lying. I believe it is most likely he is guilty, but I don't believe that I know he is guilty, that is the difference. 2)I have a background in criminology in my post secondary and have retired from a federal/caf career as a guy who finds/analyses/reports on a massive variety of information and situations both criminal and national interest related on a global scale..small cog in big machine kind of thing which I only mention because i feel i need to let you know i have studied and lived a career of weighing perspectives to situations. Now that being said, I know your correct in that only a small sliver of historical sex related criminality is ever reported by victims and I fully support the #metoo movement in its endeavours to change that statistic, which is more or less accurately stated to be 1 in 20..possibly even less. I do however disagree incredibly with your 2% of allegations proven false statement..i don't know of any data backing that up, and it seems like a nice easy way to make anecdotal evidence seem scientific. Sorry but I disagree on that one. 3)I fully believe the default position ought to be suspension with pay until the courts do their job and determine who is telling the truth to a much higher degree of accuracy than Joe SIxpack (me) and Father MacGuilicutty (random readers shocked at the suspected behaviour). EDIT to finish the thought: It is not a coincidence that the player in question had a down season last year and perhaps the company regrets its contract to pay him further and there is a chance that is playing even a small part in the decision to terminate the contract, I don't know, but to my eye it could be a convenient reason to void a contract to some degree..and i mean anywhere from 1% of the deciding factor to over 50% of the deciding factor. Signed in February and its almost August, is he underperforming and not worth 131k? I forgot to add this in before I hit send...cheers again. That is all i wanted to put out there on this story...I thought all the rest was self evident and not worth commenting on, which is why I only commented on what I saw to be the contentious part: suffering consequences before being found guilty. ; ) I appreciate both your posts very much and agree by and large with them. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastal.view Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 2 hours ago, gurn said: And just because they are convicted doesn't mean they are guilty either. messed up world huh? My main issue is the way news of charges is spread like wildfire and news of innocence is like 2 crickets chirping in a wind storm. sorry man messam is just who he is he is really not the personality i would be getting too upset about this issue over some people just generate too much smoke in their living and lifestyle i'm going to wait till we know the full story and am content with the cfl banning him presently as i know messam will have remedies if the league was being unfair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 1 hour ago, coastal.view said: he is really not the personality i would be getting too upset about this issue over Messam or any other person that looses their earnings prior to conviction, I don't care about their personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted August 1, 2018 Author Share Posted August 1, 2018 7 hours ago, gurn said: Messam or any other person that looses their earnings prior to conviction, I don't care about their personality. He has a history in the CFL and has been suspended before by the Lions to work through personal issues ... he's had chances. Jobs aren't guaranteed and if employees cause issues it can be cause for termination. It seems the Riders had that outlined in terms about "their brand" and a positive image. People lose their jobs for much less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastal.view Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 7 hours ago, gurn said: Messam or any other person that looses their earnings prior to conviction, I don't care about their personality. ok but you are aware that many many people get suspended or loose jobs for stepping out of line without any need for a criminal conviction that is messam's situation he just happens to be facing criminal charges as well life is not as black and white in the employment arena as you seem to suggest but i'm done with this topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 On 2018-07-31 at 10:39 AM, Primal Optimist said: I do however disagree incredibly with your 2% of allegations proven false statement..i don't know of any data backing that up, and it seems like a nice easy way to make anecdotal evidence seem scientific. Sorry but I disagree on that one. Sorry, taken me a while to reply. I appreciate your whole post and your perspective. Don’t really have issues with most of what you said. In fact I agree with a fair amount of it. As for the quoted section above, however, I probably should respond. I have seen the 2% false report stat cited often in various places, including educational materials from some national organizations, provincial ministries, and some fairly reputable university websites. However, digging into some of the sources, perhaps it would be more accurate for me to have stated that the data shows the false report rate to be “as low as 2%” versus saying “only around 2%.” When it comes to Canada, the false report rate has been found to be 2-4% according to a report titled “Sexual Assault and the Law in Canada” (which was from the UofA). I can’t find a linkable fulltext, but this source gets cited fairly often in other publications. There’s another report that pegs the number at 2-8%. And I believe StatsCan has numbers from 2009 that also suggest something in that 2-8% range (sorry lost the link for that one). Outside of Canada, there’s a lengthy Home Office report out of the UK that pegs the false report rate at 4%: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238713283_Home_Office_Research_Study_293_A_gap_or_a_chasm_Attrition_in_reported_rape_cases Europe is reportly between 2-6%: http://kunskapsbanken.nck.uu.se/nckkb/nck/publik/fil/visa/197/different The USA somewhere between 2-10%: https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf And Australia around 2%: http://mams.rmit.edu.au/igzd08ddxtpwz.pdf Here are some other quotes from articles and resources: “The evidence on false allegations fails to support public anxiety that untrue reporting is common. While the statistics on false allegations vary – and refer most often to rape and sexual assault – they are invariably and consistently low. Research for the Home Office suggests that only 4% of cases of sexual violence reported to the UK police are found or suspected to be false. Studies carried out in Europe and in the US indicate rates of between 2% and 6%.” http://theconversation.com/heres-the-truth-about-false-accusations-of-sexual-violence-88049 “As well, false accusations of sexual assault happen no more often than false reports of other types of crime: about 2 to 4%, which means 96 to 98% of the reports are true. (1)” http://www.ams.ubc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/sasc_myths.pdf “Only about 2% of all rape and related sex charges are determined to be false, the same percentage as for other felonies (FBI).” https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=297 I had several others from earlier today, but I’ve switched devices (on my phone right now) and can’t remember some of the sources. In any case, I think it’s fair to say the false reporting rate is “as low as 2%” and certainly less than 10%. Probably somewhere around 2-4% in Canada, based on most of the sources I’ve seen. I could probably throw together some better data and sources tomorrow (I think I have the links still on my other computer), but hopefully this post is enough to show I wasn’t just choosing “an easy way to make anecdotal evidence seem scientific.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Good post! So we can say from 2 in 100 to one in 12 ...the truth sits somewhere in the middle of those which is a huge range really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 31 minutes ago, Primal Optimist said: Good post! So we can say from 2 in 100 to one in 12 ...the truth sits somewhere in the middle of those which is a huge range really. I suppose. It really depends on how you approach the numbers. I mean, we’re still talking about these reports being at least 90% truthful (at the low end) and more likely somewhere in the very high 90s. Basically around the same false reporting rates as are seen with most other serious crimes. Difference being, in most cases, when somebody gets charged with, I dunno, let’s say robbery, we don’t tend to see too many people doubting the victim. I mean, how many of us hear about a woman getting robbed and ponder “well maybe it was actually a gift” or “maybe she’s just crying robbery because she wants to get back at the guy” or “maybe she was leading the robber on and he thought she actually wanted him to steal her stuff.” Obviously I’m being a bit facetious here. But when it comes to accusations of some very serious sexually based crimes, and even cases where charges have been filed, it seems like we get threads on these boards where half the posts are questioning whether or not the woman is being truthful, and even some posters debating whether or not what happened to her should actually be considered a crime. I just feel like it might be healthy for CDC to dial it back a tad. Too many threads these days seem to turn into circle jerks of a bunch of men lamenting how tough it is for us guys in the #MeToo era. Maybe not so much this thread (although it could have easily gone that way), but several others I’ve read in the past where I’ve just bit my tongue (and probably shouldn’t have in hindsight). I mean, I’m here for the hockey, but I do read the off-topic forums and I’ve been pretty disappointed in some of the disturbing views on women that seem to go unchallenged, and at times even celebrated (at least when it comes to the doling out of reputation points). This is by no means directed at you (we’re cool—at least I hope so), but just a commentary on some of what I’ve read on our boards over the past couple years whenever these kind of topics come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 I hear ya, I didn't mean to get into a multi day talk about a sicko who taped his sex encounter...lol...I just wanted to say he is not guilty until proven so. Somewhere between 1 in 50 and 1 in 12 of those charged are innocent or technically not guilty. The "olden days" before the hashtagmetoo movement had a LOT of cops and authority figures talk women out of pushing their cases, which caused a great many victims to not see justice. The stats we are discussing go back into those days mostly, and are talking about the actual charges having a 2 to 8 percent range of not arriving at guilty verdicts: so for me with the proper usherance of the "report it" culture, and that is absolutely what I want victims or people who think they are to do, report it and let the justice system do its job....however with the higher levels of reporting will come higher levels of those charged not being guilty at the end of the day. Again i didn't want to talk about this for days on end, i just wish the team, a storied and long funded CFL franchise, would have suspended with pay pending the outcome..and fire him when he found guilty, that is all I am saying. There is some chance, however small you want to dicker over, that the guy and gal had a fun night watchign themselves do it on tape..and a couple years later she regretted leaving him with possession of that tape. Or some other thing that would make him not guilty and a persons employer ought to have no right to infringe on what two adults do willingly with each other in the bedroom...unless it is illegal and not consentual: and we don't know that yet and neither does the team or the league. At the end of the day i give zero poops about the guy or the situation other than a comment that maybe he isn't guilty and it would be nice to let a judge decide, not the employer: we all have the right to earn a living, I lean a bit left and say "even those of us who make mistakes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinky-Winky Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 i am a huge messam fan, esp when he was in calgary ...hope things work out for him, and he can comeback to the CFL ....and if he does comeback, and is allowed to play, hope he gets signed by BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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