[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[coastal.view]

12 hours ago, peaches5 said:

This isn't about evaluating how the trade turned out. Of course everyone is going to say its the best trade in the off season now. At the time of the trade the general consensus was The Canucks paid a little more than they needed to. Vancouver didn't want to risk losing out on Miller so they paid the asking price.

what are you talking about

general consensus?

please stop

 

there were mixed reviews

those upset were very loud (as usual - and believed the sky was falling)

and they posted a lot about their views, but mostly their feelings

maybe you think that increased their numbers somehow?
 

i always thought this was a solid trade

and i was mistaken

it is a great trade

 

i noticed quite a number of people really did not comment as they were not so familiar with miller

 

contrasted to those who knew little about miller, but who felt this was a horrible deal as a shiny 1st round draft pick was exchanged

for a player they hardly knew

and because they lacked familiarity, clearly, in their view he was not any good as he had not made it onto their radar

"the blind leading the blind" kinda thing

 

but everyone is entitled to an opinion i guess

whether or not it is in any manner informed

[coastal.view]

9 hours ago, peaches5 said:

I said from the beginning it was a fair deal but Vancouver should have been able to do better. It should have been a more lopsided trade based on Tampa needing to offload salary. At the time of the trade it as the general consensus of hockey analysts that Vancouver overpaid and could have gotten Miller Cheaper but there was a chance someone else might swoop in and steal JT and Vancouver didn't want to risk it.

you seem to overlook

that general consensus matters not a twit in a trade

it is simply the noise generated by others who have absolutely no influence on the trade at all

that consensus has absolutely no value in relation to the trade

so am unclear why you keep referring to this phrase as having value

 

what matters and what is relevant in a trade

is only what the team with the asset being moved wants

and what the acquiring team is prepared to pay

tampa bay likely was firm on what they wanted for miller

they could have kept him and moved someone else if they simply needed to move salary

they felt that moving miller for this package made the most sense

since the got appropriate value back and got cap relief

the nucks could have spent less and got someone else

but jb wanted miller and paid the reasonable price required

 

 

 

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, peaches5 said:

You're definitely illiterate I won't argue with that. I didn't come up with anything. This is Ian MacIntyre shortly after the trade: 

 

You guys are the ones spreading miss information. It's pathetic. 

 

T Bay was Bent over the proverbial barrel and repeatedly kicked in the arse with a frozen boot.  

[RowdyCanuck]

1 hour ago, coastal.view said:

what are you talking about

general consensus?

please stop

 

there were mixed reviews

those upset were very loud (as usual - and believed the sky was falling)

and they posted a lot about their views, but mostly their feelings

maybe you think that increased their numbers somehow?
 

i always thought this was a solid trade

and i was mistaken

it is a great trade

 

i noticed quite a number of people really did not comment as they were not so familiar with miller

 

contrasted to those who knew little about miller, but who felt this was a horrible deal as a shiny 1st round draft pick was exchanged

for a player they hardly knew

and because they lacked familiarity, clearly, in their view he was not any good as he had not made it onto their radar

"the blind leading the blind" kinda thing

 

but everyone is entitled to an opinion i guess

whether or not it is in any manner informed

If miller put up the numbers his putting up right now ,no way the lighting let him go or we would had to pay more to get him......grit and skill is becoming a rare thing.....

jim went and got his guy and right now it looks like a steal. 

I agree it was a fair trade at the time but now it depends on who the lighting draft with that first , to see if we won the trade or if it was a fair trade for both teams.....

[Kass]

2 hours ago, peaches5 said:

You're definitely illiterate I won't argue with that. I didn't come up with anything. This is Ian MacIntyre shortly after the trade: 

 

You guys are the ones spreading miss information. It's pathetic. 

 

Imagine being so dumb that you think this stupid ass take is a good one and point to it 7 months later when it was proven how bad of a take it was. Not only that but then to try and argue that it's a good one.

 

Quote

 

There’s little doubt that Miller will help the Canucks get closer. He is a versatile, 26-year-old power forward with enough skill to average 20 goals and 51 points over the past four seasons with the Lightning and New York Rangers.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how someone could say those two sentences but then also think it's a bad trade. That's ignoring the actual details in Miller too.

 

Miller as a 21 year old put up 22 goals 21 assists on a middling Rangers team being 5th in scoring on the team. He then follows it up each year with a higher and higher PPG.

 

Has a single year where he is centering the 3rd line on one of the best teams the NHL has ever seen. 

 

Gets called Skilled, Versatile, 26 year old power forward who averages 20 goals 51 points (Which is a lie if you quickly do the math its 20.42 goals with a 54.86 points over 82 games/season)

 

If you were to do the actually good way of calculating it you would actually do P/60 seeing as he played less minutes on TBL he had a career average of 2.46 per 60 mintes o

If you compare that to current players for ONLY this season and filter it with a minimum of 100 minutes of toi (10 games @ 10 minutes per game) That average over 4 seasons is good enough to tie Auston Matthews for 31st in the league this year (REMEMBER THIS IS ONLY ~50 games into a season and Miller put up that average over 4 whole season while being under 25)

 

All while being on a great contract

 

But you still think Miller for a 1st + 3rd is somehow a bad deal.

 

Ironic thing out of all of this is Miller has a lower points/60 this year "at only" 2.11

 

Anyone who actually looked into the numbers knew this was a great deal. For anyone wondering Brayden Point had a 2.78p/60 prior to this year. He had so many more points because he averaged an extra 4 minutes and 10 seconds per game with a bunch of that being PP time and with better linemates. No $&!# he scored so many more points but if they had equal minutes Miller clearly would have put up the points in Tampa too (Probably not quite as much as Point did last year pretty damn close seeing as he is doing exactly that in Vancouver) 

 

 

If we had a young cost controlled power forward who from 21-25 scored 20+ goals and 54+ points a season 2.46p/60 and traded him for a 1st + 3rd you would be calling for Bennings neck.

 

[Kass]

8 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

If miller put up the numbers his putting up right now ,no way the lighting let him go or we would had to pay more to get him......grit and skill is becoming a rare thing.....

jim went and got his guy and right now it looks like a steal. 

I agree it was a fair trade at the time but now it depends on who the lighting draft with that first , to see if we won the trade or if it was a fair trade for both teams.....

Read my comment above. He was already putting up better points/60 than he currently is this seaons for us. He "Only scored" 47 points in 75 games because he was only playing 14:40 seconds per game

Edited January 25, 2020 by Kass

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Kass said:

Imagine being so dumb that you think this stupid ass take is a good one and point to it 7 months later when it was proven how bad of a take it was. Not only that but then to try and argue that it's a good one.

 

I'm not sure how someone could say those two sentences but then also think it's a bad trade. That's ignoring the actual details in Miller too.

 

Miller as a 21 year old put up 22 goals 21 assists on a middling Rangers team being 5th in scoring on the team. He then follows it up each year with a higher and higher PPG.

 

Has a single year where he is centering the 3rd line on one of the best teams the NHL has ever seen. 

 

Gets called Skilled, Versatile, 26 year old power forward who averages 20 goals 51 points (Which is a lie if you quickly do the math its 20.42 goals with a 54.86 points over 82 games/season)

 

If you were to do the actually good way of calculating it you would actually do P/60 seeing as he played less minutes on TBL he had a career average of 2.46 per 60 mintes o

If you compare that to current players for ONLY this season and filter it with a minimum of 100 minutes of toi (10 games @ 10 minutes per game) That average over 4 seasons is good enough to tie Auston Matthews for 31st in the league this year (REMEMBER THIS IS ONLY ~50 games into a season and Miller put up that average over 4 whole season while being under 25)

 

All while being on a great contract

 

But you still think Miller for a 1st + 3rd is somehow a bad deal.

 

Ironic thing out of all of this is Miller has a lower points/60 this year "at only" 2.11

 

Anyone who actually looked into the numbers knew this was a great deal. For anyone wondering Brayden Point had a 2.78p/60 prior to this year. He had so many more points because he averaged an extra 4 minutes and 10 seconds per game with a bunch of that being PP time and with better linemates. No $&!# he scored so many more points but if they had equal minutes Miller clearly would have put up the points in Tampa too (Probably not quite as much as Point did last year pretty damn close seeing as he is doing exactly that in Vancouver) 

 

 

If we had a young cost controlled power forward who from 21-25 scored 20+ goals and 54+ points a season 2.46p/60 and traded him for a 1st + 3rd you would be calling for Bennings neck.

 

You are both smart and correct.  

[Alflives]

Thank the hockey Gods JB refused Johnston and Point, and insisted on the more versatile and much tougher to play against guy in Miller.  

I’m hoping TBay makes it to the SCF, so we can beat them, and Miller can hoist the BIG CUP in front of their crying eyes.  

[RowdyCanuck]

6 minutes ago, Kass said:

Read my comment above. He was already putting up better points/60 than he currently is this seaons for us. He "Only scored" 47 points in 75 games because he was only playing 14:40 seconds per game

I did and your right but at the time I wasn't sure if Miller was a by product of playing on a good team or if he had more.....we see that happen all the the time players get traded get a bigger role and never live up to the hype. 

[Alflives]

10 hours ago, peaches5 said:

Point is coming off hip surgery and missed all of the summer, training camp and the start of the season. He also put up 92 points (41 goals) last year whereas Miller put up 47 points(13 goals). Point is far better defensively and a far better skater than Miller as well. 

Why are you on our board?  Did your bridge collapse?  Leave and promote your team’s players on your own site.

 

[RowdyCanuck]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Thank the hockey Gods JB refused Johnston and Point, and insisted on the more versatile and much tougher to play against guy in Miller.  

I’m hoping TBay makes it to the SCF, so we can beat them, and Miller can hoist the BIG CUP in front of their crying eyes.  

Funny thing is lighting would have the last two picks in the first round lol 

if that happened Jim would be called a genius lol

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

I did and your right but at the time I wasn't sure if Miller was a by product of playing on a good team or if he had more.....we see that happen all the the time players get traded get a bigger role and never live up to the hype. 

I think coach AV said it was nice to see that Miller finally ‘got it’.  

[coastal.view]

18 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

If miller put up the numbers his putting up right now ,no way the lighting let him go or we would had to pay more to get him......grit and skill is becoming a rare thing.....

jim went and got his guy and right now it looks like a steal. 

I agree it was a fair trade at the time but now it depends on who the lighting draft with that first , to see if we won the trade or if it was a fair trade for both teams.....

don't buy into that logic

we cannot do trades based on the strange occurrences that might happen at a future draft

the return to tampa is likely a mid 1st round pick

50/50 chance to be a real player

that is what was traded

 

if you want to look at who tampa actually acquires with that pick to determine who wins the trade

then you will likely make yourself crazy in the future

here are the 11th to 21st first round picks in the 2015 entry draft

 

11  Lawson Crouse

12  Denis Gurianov

13  Jakub Zboril

14  Jake DeBrusk

15  Zachary Senyshyn

16  Matthew Barzal

17  Kyle Connor

18  Thomas Chabot

19  Evgeny Svechnikov

20  Joel Eriksson

21  Colin White

 

your logic suggests that if tampa chooses matthew barzal/kyle connor type player with that mid round pick the nucks loose the trade

but if they pick almost anyone else from those 10 the nucks win

that makes no sense

you cannot make a trade forecasting exactly who the future prospect might be

you do it based on the type of talent that will likely be taken at the draft slot traded

 

it is a curiosity who the lightening actually select

it is more meaningful though to see what draft slot ends up getting traded

 

 

 

[RowdyCanuck]

5 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

don't buy into that logic

we cannot do trades based on the strange occurrences that might happen at a future draft

the return to tampa is likely a mid 1st round pick

50/50 chance to be a real player

that is what was traded

 

if you want to look at who tampa actually acquires with that pick to determine who wins the trade

then you will likely make yourself crazy in the future

here are the 11th to 21st first round picks in the 2015 entry draft

 

11  Lawson Crouse

12  Denis Gurianov

13  Jakub Zboril

14  Jake DeBrusk

15  Zachary Senyshyn

16  Matthew Barzal

17  Kyle Connor

18  Thomas Chabot

19  Evgeny Svechnikov

20  Joel Eriksson

21  Colin White

 

your logic suggests that if tampa chooses matthew barzal/kyle connor type player with that mid round pick the nucks loose the trade

but if they pick almost anyone else from those 10 the nucks win

that makes no sense

you cannot make a trade forecasting exactly who the future prospect might be

you do it based on the type of talent that will likely be taken at the draft slot traded

 

it is a curiosity who the lightening actually select

it is more meaningful though to see what draft slot ends up getting traded

 

 

 

I didnt say it would decide if the Canucks won the trade .....I said depends on who they pick , it's either the Canucks won the trade in a land slide or it was a fair trade for both teams.....

 

edit* sorry I did say it would decide if the Canucks won the trade or it was a fair trade for both teams

Edited January 25, 2020 by RowdyCanuck

[Kass]

3 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

I didnt say it would decide if the Canucks won the trade .....I said depends on who they pick , it's either the Canucks won the trade in a land slide or it was a fair trade for both teams.....

Ahh but you did ignore my the rest of my entire post proving you wrong

[RowdyCanuck]

3 minutes ago, Kass said:

Ahh but you did ignore my the rest of my entire post proving you wrong

i said you were right.......

then I said why I thought what I did.....

 

edit* if the lighting get a good player then it's a fair trade isn't?

Edited January 25, 2020 by RowdyCanuck

[RowdyCanuck]

9 minutes ago, Kass said:

Ahh but you did ignore my the rest of my entire post proving you wrong

How did you prove me wrong? 

We got an older top six winger that helps us now....Canucks win

lighting could get a top six winger with the pick.....lighting win but they could end up with a bust and Canucks win the trade in a land slide.....

 

that sounds like a fair trade to me......

[peaches5]

9 hours ago, Kass said:

Imagine being so dumb that you think this stupid ass take is a good one and point to it 7 months later when it was proven how bad of a take it was. Not only that but then to try and argue that it's a good one.

 

I'm not sure how someone could say those two sentences but then also think it's a bad trade. That's ignoring the actual details in Miller too.

 

Miller as a 21 year old put up 22 goals 21 assists on a middling Rangers team being 5th in scoring on the team. He then follows it up each year with a higher and higher PPG.

 

Has a single year where he is centering the 3rd line on one of the best teams the NHL has ever seen. 

 

Gets called Skilled, Versatile, 26 year old power forward who averages 20 goals 51 points (Which is a lie if you quickly do the math its 20.42 goals with a 54.86 points over 82 games/season)

 

If you were to do the actually good way of calculating it you would actually do P/60 seeing as he played less minutes on TBL he had a career average of 2.46 per 60 mintes o

If you compare that to current players for ONLY this season and filter it with a minimum of 100 minutes of toi (10 games @ 10 minutes per game) That average over 4 seasons is good enough to tie Auston Matthews for 31st in the league this year (REMEMBER THIS IS ONLY ~50 games into a season and Miller put up that average over 4 whole season while being under 25)

 

All while being on a great contract

 

But you still think Miller for a 1st + 3rd is somehow a bad deal.

 

Ironic thing out of all of this is Miller has a lower points/60 this year "at only" 2.11

 

Anyone who actually looked into the numbers knew this was a great deal. For anyone wondering Brayden Point had a 2.78p/60 prior to this year. He had so many more points because he averaged an extra 4 minutes and 10 seconds per game with a bunch of that being PP time and with better linemates. No $&!# he scored so many more points but if they had equal minutes Miller clearly would have put up the points in Tampa too (Probably not quite as much as Point did last year pretty damn close seeing as he is doing exactly that in Vancouver) 

 

 

If we had a young cost controlled power forward who from 21-25 scored 20+ goals and 54+ points a season 2.46p/60 and traded him for a 1st + 3rd you would be calling for Bennings neck.

 

LIke I just finished posting people chime in with their 2 cents and don't even understand what it is that they're responding to. They just see someone who isn't posting what everyone else wants to hear and then gang up on the person(s). I am not even going to bother reading past your first line. I never once said it was a bad trade. Get up to speed or don't bother wasting your time.

[48MPHSlapShot]

Hey, remember that time we traded a conditional mid/late 1st and a 3rd for a 26 year old player that wound up being a PPG top line center with a 59.3% FO percentage? Good times. 

[Alflives]

24 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Hey, remember that time we traded a conditional mid/late 1st and a 3rd for a 26 year old player that wound up being a PPG top line center with a 59.3% FO percentage? Good times. 

Miller is kind of a bigger, meaner version of ROR.