Bertuzzipunch Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said: They may have options, but whos got the better deal. Carolina, Florida, Vegas, Colorado or Tampa? They need to compete with the teams that are ready to win and wanting to win who will do whatever it takes to get the players they need at whatever cost. Tampa is running out of assets to sweeten the deal. They gave up a lot the last couple years. They were tight to the cap last season, but werent over the cap. This season they are well over the cap and in the next couple years, one of the core pieces will have to go, maybe even 2. They have a lot of ink to put down on paper right now and they only have 19 players signed going into next season, with 5mil over the cap and Brayden Point needs a new contract next season and then the other 3 big RFAs the following season. They have almost zero bargaining power, they are beyond f***ed with their cap situation the next couple years. But its not really like they should be too upset, they are about to win back to back cups and if it costs them a player like Cernak or Cirelli or maybe one of the big UFAs who cares, They’ve achieved the ultimate goal in back to back years. Tampa has a very long road ahead getting their cap situation under control. There will be plenty of teams out there wanting to win who are able to give a better deal than Tampa I would think. Tampa has to shed cap like crazy and compete with the other potential deals out there as they attempt to dump 30+ Players on 5 mil deals around the league That Johnson 1mil cap hit in the following seasons will make it even more of a sticky situation when Point, Cernak, Cirelli and Sergachev all need new deals within 2 years and all their big UFAs are locked up for 3+ Even if they move Johnson, Gourde, Palat AAAND Killorn, between their big guys they take up 49mil. then you add in Points raise which will be around 2-3mil at least, brings them up to 52ish plus Cernak, Cirelli and Sergachev… thats going to be atleast 20mil bringing them up to 72mil at the minimum. If the cap is going to remain flat for the next 3-4 years like they predict, that leaves them 9.5mil… and only 10 guys signed… thats less than half of a 23man roster, they are in a bind and they are going to end up getting less than full value in return Yup Theres no way tampas GM doesnt know the pickle they are in for the next few years. They have no choice but to move some key pieces. Cap always catches up to you, cant hide from it forever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 13 minutes ago, Bertuzzipunch said: Yup Theres no way tampas GM doesnt know the pickle they are in for the next few years. They have no choice but to move some key pieces. Cap always catches up to you, cant hide from it forever Man I hope you're right but I don't think so. Teams will be able to cheat the system and continue to do so until it's fixed. TB, like Pitt will keep moving firsts to keep ahead of the game. The difference is Pittsburgh mortgaged their future but TB is just cheating and they are buying Cups. They have tones of assets left, don't kid yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knucklehead91 Posted July 3, 2021 Author Share Posted July 3, 2021 25 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: Man I hope you're right but I don't think so. Teams will be able to cheat the system and continue to do so until it's fixed. TB, like Pitt will keep moving firsts to keep ahead of the game. The difference is Pittsburgh mortgaged their future but TB is just cheating and they are buying Cups. They have tones of assets left, don't kid yourself. tampa is running out of 1sts and 2nds. They dont have a 1st or 2nd this year and no 2nd next year. They cant keep it going forever. It will be a matter of time before their prospects get moved and then the future is gone and Tampa will be headed into a dark and depressing rebuild. They can move as many picks as they want, its going to cost them to get teams to take 5 mil cap hits in a flat cap and they need to ideally move Killorn, Gourde and Johnson. They can wait out Palat or get a 3rd or 4th round pick. These 5+ Mil contracts in the flat cap world are not ideal for any team. Every team will have their RFA hoops to get through. Why take on a 30+ Player with a 5mil if the cap isnt going up and you have RFAs or UFAs that you want/need to extend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertuzzipunch Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said: tampa is running out of 1sts and 2nds. They dont have a 1st or 2nd this year and no 2nd next year. They cant keep it going forever. It will be a matter of time before their prospects get moved and then the future is gone and Tampa will be headed into a dark and depressing rebuild. They can move as many picks as they want, its going to cost them to get teams to take 5 mil cap hits in a flat cap and they need to ideally move Killorn, Gourde and Johnson. They can wait out Palat or get a 3rd or 4th round pick. These 5+ Mil contracts in the flat cap world are not ideal for any team. Every team will have their RFA hoops to get through. Why take on a 30+ Player with a 5mil if the cap isnt going up and you have RFAs or UFAs that you want/need to extend No GM is taking on Johnson and his 15 mill without a good sweetner. Their 1sts arent enough. They will lose a cirelli, serg or cernak. If not now then next year. 2 of them most likely. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knucklehead91 Posted July 3, 2021 Author Share Posted July 3, 2021 51 minutes ago, Bertuzzipunch said: No GM is taking on Johnson and his 15 mill without a good sweetner. Their 1sts arent enough. They will lose a cirelli, serg or cernak. If not now then next year. 2 of them most likely. Exactly, and Tampa is running out of sweeteners, plus teams like Carolina, Florida and Vegas can offer some decent players PLUS first and 2nd round picks if they want to go all in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, Gawdzukes said: @mll You can quote the CBA all you want and make up English words and use jargon and say it's a detriment and it doesn't create cap space but you're wrong. The bolts are artificially raising their cap and winning the Cup because of it. Teams have been using LTIR to bring in better players and run at a higher cap during the regular season for a long time. It's funny watching you try to defend it it or pretend it doesn't happen, or it's not effective, or a thing. The Canucks had Ferland on LTIR all season. He's obviously not the same calibre player as Kucherov yet the Canucks too raised their cap above 81.5M to 85M. It would be a misrepresentation to claim they iced an 85M roster though because Ferland's 3.5M is included in those 85M and he can't play. Last year he was on LTIR nearly all season but started the game in the Edmonton bubble. Vancouver used LTIR to add Toffoli. Everyone other than Leivo was back healthy to start the bubble - Ferland, Markstrom who had ended the season on LTIR etc. If it was the regular season they too would have exceeded the salary cap. Vancouver will lose nearly 700K in cap space next season as bonus overage because they were in LTIR this season. They had 1.7M less this year because they were also in LTIR the season before. Vegas this season had to play games at 15 or 16 skaters because they were in LTIR. They couldn't bank cap space so they didn't have the cap to bring up players to the roster. Even Vancouver didn't use LTIR in one of the seasons Dorsett missed as it's by far more advantageous to be able to bank cap space to have roster flexibility and avoid bonus overages. The Kucherov situation sticks out because teams were expecting them to have to clear some 10M and they were able to avoid it with him unavailable all season. They still had to make the playoffs without their best player. He could have also not been ready for the post-season. The stars kind of aligned for them. Last season Stamkos wasn't able to finish the season. They didn't put him on LTIR because they would have lost cap space. He was only able to return for less than 3 minutes in the post-season. Florida lost Ekblad to injury this season. They too didn't use LTIR because they would have lost cap space. LTIR is only used as a last recourse. It's not some miracle solution that creates cap space - suffice to look at Vancouver's own situation with Dorsett and now Ferland. Edited July 4, 2021 by mll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alienhuggyflow Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 On 6/30/2021 at 10:53 PM, knucklehead91 said: Caution these trades may be disturbing to some viewers, viewer discretion is advised. Alright, this is the first proposal I've done, just wanted to toss out a some crazy idea's and see what people think and if there is fair value? Trades are between VAN - TBL, FLA, CBJ, BUF Just so you are aware... Im goin full Gillis, I aint leavin nothin in the cupboards. Assuming Ferland's career is over.... First trade between VAN and TBL TO VAN Cernak, Erik TO TBL Ferland, Micheal + 2021 5th round pick + 2022 2nd round pick TBL is well over the cap and are in desperate need of space. Seeing how they LLLLOVE to abuse the LTIR, perhaps we could move Ferlands LTIR to TBL in exchange for Cernak. LTIR in the flat cap world holds so much value and comes at a premium. Because teams were expecting the cap to rise last year and the news broke in July that the cap would remain flat, teams are now in a bind. They either gave out contracts or need to resign players, but they do not have the space to do so, prior to the verdict of the salary cap. Tampa needs cap space BIG TIME.. and the use of the LTIR would benefit them greatly, but its going to cost them. That is of course if in fact Ferland's career is over. Vancouver needs a RHD that is young and one that can grow with the core of this team. I doubt there are many teams that are going to want to help TBL out if they manage to win another cup. We could possibly toss them a little life raft in exchange for some help of our own. Moving Cernak's 2.95m out and Ferlands 3.5m of LTIR in gives TBL makes a difference of $6,450,000 for TBL and their cap situation that move alone makes them cap compliant. They are $5,566,666 over the cap as of today and gives them just under 1mil of room. The draft picks are to hopefully close the deal to give TBL a shot at drafting another NHL player. Next season TBL is projected to have $11,458,334 of cap space, thats not including BP's hefty raise that will be coming next season along with a few other RFAs. Ferland's LTIR will help stabilize their cap situation next year and help handle BP's salary increase for the first year until they can get their cap situation sorted. Cernak does require protection, so they will have someone else exposed and lose them for nothing, Moving Cernak out for draft picks and cap stability is not an entire loss for nothing. There is financial gain and potential prospects. TBL gets to keep Sergachev, Hedman and McDonagh, thats 3 of their top 4D. They just have to protect Kucherov, Stamkos, Cirelli, Point, Vasilevskiy and either Gourde, Killorn or Palat and they keep a large portion of their cup winning team together. TO VAN Reinhart, Sam [RFA Rights] - Re-signed 6Mx4 TO BUF Juolevi, Olli [RFA Rights] Virtanen, Jake 2021 2nd round pick (VAN) Virtanen needs a change of scenery and Juolevi needs to be given a chance. Perhaps in a new market, less distractions and perhaps more opportunity to provide offense, Virtanen will flourish. Juolevi should help tidy up the back end for BUF and provide a good zone exit passing ability. Two former top 10 first round picks and a high 2nd round pick should be fair value. TO VAN Ekman-Larsson, Oliver ($2,250,000 retained) TO ARZ Roussel, Antoine DiPietro, Michael Schmidt, Nate 2021 3rd round pick (VAN) 3/4 pairing of OEL and Cernak, I feel like they would work very well together. We need to move cap however to make this work. In exchange, we take a top 4D and in return we give them a top 4D. OEL's contract is a bit steep for me, we'd need them to retain a portion to make it worth pitching a deal. We dump some cap for 1 year to make the deal work, they have plenty of room to take on a bit of cap for 1 season. In return they get a draft pick and a pretty high end goaltending prospect to help with their future. OEL has been nominated for the Norris 5 times in his career, his stocks are down but he is still a very solid player and had the 2nd highest CORSI on D for ARZ. I feel like he would be an upgrade on Schmidt, he has a big body, moves the puck well and lays the body. If OEL manages to bounce back in a new environment, the great thing is he is locked up for awhile and at a good cap hit. TO VAN Jones, Seth TO CBJ Rathbone, Jack Lind, Kole [RFA RIGHTS] Eriksson, Loui 2021 1st round pick (VAN) 2022 1st round pick (VAN) Now for the final piece on the back end. SETH... MUTHAF***IN... JONES Rathbone has a high potential and CBJ isn't going to want to let a top dman go without a dman coming the other way, especially if the potential isn't there. Jones is leavin town wether they like it or not, they have lost bargaining power with it being publicly known that Jones wants out. Unfortunately we need to move cap once again to make this deal work. So Rathbone, Lind and our 9th OA and and next years 1st round pick, plus LE's cap dump for 1 season (bonuses paid) for Seth Jones. Re-sign Edler at 2 year 1.5m - Edler doesn't want to leave, but Edler isn't in a position to bargain, if he wants to stay and wants another shot at a cup, he needs to accept his fate as either a UFA or a cheap deal. Another short term deal with a very low cap. If he doesn't like it, he can move on down to Seattle as a UFA if he wants to remain close to the Vancouver area. Left Wing Centre Right Wing Miller, J.T. $5,250,000 LW, C UFA - 2 Pettersson, Elias $6,750,000 C RFA Boeser, Brock $5,875,000 RW RFA - 1 Höglander, Nils $891,667 LW, RW RFA - 2 Reinhart, Sam $6,000,000 C, RW RFA Podkolzin, Vasily $925,000 RW RFA - 3 Pearson, Tanner $3,250,000 LW NTC UFA - 3 Horvat, Bo $5,500,000 C UFA - 2 Lockwood, William $842,500 RW RFA - 1 Motte, Tyler $1,225,000 LW, RW UFA - 1 Beagle, Jay $3,000,000 C M-NTC UFA - 1 Highmore, Matthew $725,000 LW, RW RFA - 1 Left Defense Right Defense Goaltender Hughes, Quinn $6,750,000 LD RFA Jones, Seth $5,400,000 RD M-NTC UFA - 1 Demko, Thatcher $5,000,000 G UFA - 5 Ekman-Larsson, Oliver $6,000,000 LD NMC UFA - 6 Cernak, Erik $2,950,000 RD RFA - 2 Holtby, Braden $4,300,000 G M-NTC UFA - 1 Edler, Alexander $1,500,000 LD UFA Myers, Tyler $6,000,000 RD M-NTC UFA - 3 Final Cap $81,169,379 Draft picks - none for awhile Protected list Pettersson, Boeser, Miller, Horvat, Reinhart, Jones, Cernak, OEL, Demko Exposed Myers, Holtby, Pearson, Gadjovich, MacEwan, Bowey, Motte, Beagle - I doubt they take Myers, and they do need a starting goalie from 1/31 teams. IDK what other teams in the league will have a goalie with as many accomplishments as Holtby exposed. So I would think, for only 1 year, Holtby might be the best choice of the exposed players. If they take either one of Holtby, Pearson or Myers, we free cap space. If we lose Pearson, I'd be happy to replace him with Gadjovich or MacEwan and run with the kids. If we lose Myers, well we can start taking a look at Woo, Bowey, Rafferty, Chatfield, Sautner or Brisebois and give these guys either their first shot or a longer look than previous. That would be one hell of a D group and 3 lines that can score. Would any of this be possible, would anyone make these trades to form this team and hope to win a cup? Anyways I've spent too much time drinking and not sure how I'll feel about this in the morning. Looks and sounds good to me right now though You do understand that the cap is the same regardless of LTIR right? They are basically giving us Cernak for free. Blows my mind how many people think it's somehow extra cap space. LTIR only applies by however much your over the cap, so if the LTIR contract is 5 million but your only 2 million over the cap only 3 million of LTIR applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertuzzipunch Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 7 minutes ago, Alienhuggyflow said: You do understand that the cap is the same regardless of LTIR right? They are basically giving us Cernak for free. Blows my mind how many people think it's somehow extra cap space. LTIR only applies by however much your over the cap, so if the LTIR contract is 5 million but your only 2 million over the cap only 3 million of LTIR applies. Whos suggestion getting cernak for free if anything most ppl here are giving quite a haul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alienhuggyflow Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Bertuzzipunch said: Whos suggestion getting cernak for free if anything most ppl here are giving quite a haul I'm talking about the proposal since it mostly involved TB clearing cap by trading him for Ferlands LTIR which the op thought gives them extra cap which it doesn't. I would pay a premium for him to the point I'd take on Tyler Johnston's contract since I would assume Cernak would be far down the list of guys they want to move to clear cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knucklehead91 Posted July 4, 2021 Author Share Posted July 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Alienhuggyflow said: You do understand that the cap is the same regardless of LTIR right? They are basically giving us Cernak for free. Blows my mind how many people think it's somehow extra cap space. LTIR only applies by however much your over the cap, so if the LTIR contract is 5 million but your only 2 million over the cap only 3 million of LTIR applies. Ive been informed on that, i had a misunderstanding at first. I was intoxicated when I made this proposal, since I’ve sobered up I’ve also gained the correct understanding. However, draft picks are not free, Tampa doesnt have a 2nd round pick and our 2nd is a high 2nd round pick in a draft there isnt much clarity on, so that high 2nd could be a mid to low 1st. Looking back, is that a fair deal, probably not. But for the situation Tampa is in, I dont see them getting a massive haul for Cernak on his own, they might package someone like him up with a guy like Johnson and move them out to clear cap and get some quality draft picks in return. Keep in mind, Tampa is well over the cap, going to win a 2nd cup, need to shed 15-20 mil in the next year to stabilize their future. They arent in a great position to ask for a lot, they are the ones who desperately need help, plus they’ll soon have 2 cups. Not a lot of teams will be wanting to help their situation so they can go and win a 3rd cup. Plus teams like Carolina, Florida, Vegas and Colorado are contending teams that are ready to win and will do anything to win AND they can actually afford to make moves plus they have more assets to move. Tampa doesnt have a 1st and 2nd this year and no 2nd round pick next year. They are basically offering borderline 2nd and 4th round picks being at the top of the league. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alienhuggyflow Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 On 7/1/2021 at 6:31 AM, mll said: There are a lot of absurdities written on LTIR including by media like Seravalli, Dayal. The best resource is CapFriendly. When a player is on LTIR it allows the team to exceed the salary cap up to that player's cap hit, but the cap hit of the LTIR player stays on the books. Ferland going on LTIR allowed Vancouver to spend as much as 85M but it's only his 3.5M that are above the 81.5M. It would be far easier for their cap situation to have Ferland entirely off their books than have to deal with his LTIR cap. When a team can't get close to the 81.5M with their regular roster before applying LTIR they are at risk of losing cap space. Florida would have lost 2M if Ekblad went on LTIR so they kept him on IR instead. Tampa only cleared the contracts of Paquette and Coburn. Taking an LTIR contract in return doesn't create cap space but forces them to operate in LTIR and all the inconvenience it brings. Tampa had to operate in LTIR because of Kucherov while Ottawa were able to avoid the nuisance by dumping their LTIR contracts. A couple of seasons ago, Tampa traded Callahan's LTIR contract with a 5th round pick for Mike Condon and a 6th round pick. Callahan had a career ending back condition and was going to be a 5.8M LTIR cap hit. Mike Condon had a 2.4M cap hit and went on to spend the full season in the AHL for a buried cap hit of 1.325M. IE Tampa preferred having Condon's 1.325M buried cap hit on their books than Callahan's 5.8M LTIR contract, that would have allowed them to exceed the cap by that amount. Brisebois here does a good job of explaining LTIR. He covers the inability to accrue cap space and bonus overages to explain that trade. You explained it much better than I kind sir. LTIR is confusing that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alienhuggyflow Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 1 minute ago, knucklehead91 said: Ive been informed on that, i had a misunderstanding at first. I was intoxicated when I made this proposal, since I’ve sobered up I’ve also gained the correct understanding. However, draft picks are not free, Tampa doesnt have a 2nd round pick and our 2nd is a high 2nd round pick in a draft there isnt much clarity on, so that high 2nd could be a mid to low 1st. Looking back, is that a fair deal, probably not. But for the situation Tampa is in, I dont see them getting a massive haul for Cernak on his own, they might package someone like him up with a guy like Johnson and move them out to clear cap and get some quality draft picks in return. Keep in mind, Tampa is well over the cap, going to win a 2nd cup, need to shed 15-20 mil in the next year to stabilize their future. They arent in a great position to ask for a lot, they are the ones who desperately need help, plus they’ll soon have 2 cups. Not a lot of teams will be wanting to help their situation so they can go and win a 3rd cup. Plus teams like Carolina, Florida, Vegas and Colorado are contending teams that are ready to win and will do anything to win AND they can actually afford to make moves plus they have more assets to move. Tampa doesnt have a 1st and 2nd this year and no 2nd round pick next year. They are basically offering borderline 2nd and 4th round picks being at the top of the league. Fair enough LTIR is confusing as hell. If Cernak was made available I think 100% whoever were to get him would need to take someone like Tyler Johnston and his 5 million cap hit plus maybe a couple of seconds, since getting rid of Tyler's contract would be the main appeal for TB. I think they will try to move someone else or picks to clear cap space. For the record id take back Tyler if it meant getting Cernak, he is exactly who we need for Quinn. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Alienhuggyflow said: Fair enough LTIR is confusing as hell. If Cernak was made available I think 100% whoever were to get him would need to take someone like Tyler Johnston and his 5 million cap hit plus maybe a couple of seconds, since getting rid of Tyler's contract would be the main appeal for TB. I think they will try to move someone else or picks to clear cap space. For the record id take back Tyler if it meant getting Cernak, he is exactly who we need for Quinn. Absolutely! If it cost pick 41 and we got back Cernak and Johnson that’s making our team instantly better, plus we keep our 9OA. Cernak with Quinn. Johnson centres line three. We pick Eklund with 9OA. Miller, Petey, Bess Eklund, Bo, Hogs Pearson, Johnson, Pods Quinn, Cernak Schmidt, Myers OJ/Bone, Hamonic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alienhuggyflow Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 6 minutes ago, Alflives said: Absolutely! If it cost pick 41 and we got back Cernak and Johnson that’s making our team instantly better, plus we keep our 9OA. Cernak with Quinn. Johnson centres line three. We pick Eklund with 9OA. Miller, Petey, Bess Eklund, Bo, Hogs Pearson, Johnson, Pods Quinn, Cernak Schmidt, Myers OJ/Bone, Hamonic Makes sense to me as well. Tyler may be overpaid but he is still a very good 3c and we solve two needs without giving up the 9th. Cernak and Hughes should be very good together and by taking Tyler without taking cap back saves them almost 8 million combined. Toews went for 2 seconds without a cap dump so I don't think we are lowballing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knucklehead91 Posted July 4, 2021 Author Share Posted July 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, Alienhuggyflow said: Fair enough LTIR is confusing as hell. If Cernak was made available I think 100% whoever were to get him would need to take someone like Tyler Johnston and his 5 million cap hit plus maybe a couple of seconds, since getting rid of Tyler's contract would be the main appeal for TB. I think they will try to move someone else or picks to clear cap space. For the record id take back Tyler if it meant getting Cernak, he is exactly who we need for Quinn. I feel like Tampa is going to have to move one of their RFAs this season. Their cap situation for the next couple years looks like its going to be hell for them to get through and it will cost them a lot of the future to do it. They have a lot of people unsigned right now and Point gets a raise next season. Its also worth noting Cernak was also drafted in the 2nd round 43rd overall, so a high 2nd for a mid 2nd is kinda how I was thinking I guess? What would you feel is a good and fair trade for Cernak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-SN- Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 Note: Tags are mandatory only in the Trades, Rumours, Signings forum and in the Proposals and Armchair GM'ing forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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