[Discussion] Tough Decisions

[Coconuts]

10 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

Well maybe I'd have a different opinion if EP was playing to his potential right now but I guess I'm going with the present team situation. I am also hoping EP returns to form and what do you think Bo is going to demand for a contract as a 2nd line center?

He's not, there's no avoiding that, but given his age and historical production it's unlikely he just forgot how to hockey

 

I think missing camp was bigger than some of us might have thought 

 

I don't think we'd get a sweetheart deal, but his current deal shows he was willing to at least be fair, I think the number would probably be around 6.75-7M, I think anything higher probably favours Horvat

 

But what do I know

Edited January 7, 2022 by Coconuts

[Canuck Luck]

On 1/5/2022 at 3:57 PM, Sbriggs said:

 

So......what is the proposal? 

 

Lol...close thread.

[N4ZZY]

On 1/6/2022 at 8:19 PM, Coconuts said:

He's not, there's no avoiding that, but given his age and historical production it's unlikely he just forgot how to hockey

 

I think missing camp was bigger than some of us might have thought 

 

I don't think we'd get a sweetheart deal, but his current deal shows he was willing to at least be fair, I think the number would probably be around 6.75-7M, I think anything higher probably favours Horvat

 

But what do I know

I can’t really see Bo asking for more than 7M. He’s been producing at what? 50-60 points? His career high to date is 61 points. What do players like him usually get on the market? I think if he gets more than 7M, then it’s an overpayment on the part of the Canucks. We cannot afford to do that moving forward with any of our players. 

 

I’d be down for Bo, if he signs for 6.75M for 7 years. We keep the man well into his thirties. Is the maximum years 7 or 8? Regardless, he would be 33/34 years old by the time that contract is over. If he’s still producing at a decent clip then, sign him to shorter term deals at that time. He could be a great middling, or fourth line centre at that stage of his career. 

 

 

[Coconuts]

10 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

I can’t really see Bo asking for more than 7M. He’s been producing at what? 50-60 points? His career high to date is 61 points. What do players like him usually get on the market? I think if he gets more than 7M, then it’s an overpayment on the part of the Canucks. We cannot afford to do that moving forward with any of our players. 

 

I’d be down for Bo, if he signs for 6.75M for 7 years. We keep the man well into his thirties. Is the maximum years 7 or 8? Regardless, he would be 33/34 years old by the time that contract is over. If he’s still producing at a decent clip then, sign him to shorter term deals at that time. He could be a great middling, or fourth line centre at that stage of his career. 

 

 

Max is seven as a UFA, but eight if he re-signs with the team I believe? 

 

I agree that going over 7M is probably too much, 7.5M would probably be an overpayment imo. But I think he could probably get that via UFA.

 

I just hope that negation goes reasonably, it'd suck to have Bo price himself out of our range and potentially force a move. Because if it comes to it, like Miller, he's not a guy I think we can afford to lose for nothing.

 

I do think a deal ends up getting done, but you never really know til it is.

[N4ZZY]

6 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Max is seven as a UFA, but eight if he re-signs with the team I believe? 

 

I agree that going over 7M is probably too much, 7.5M would probably be an overpayment imo. But I think he could probably get that via UFA.

 

I just hope that negation goes reasonably, it'd suck to have Bo price himself out of our range and potentially force a move. Because if it comes to it, like Miller, he's not a guy I think we can afford to lose for nothing.

 

I do think a deal ends up getting done, but you never really know til it is.

Yeah that’s true. You never know if it’s done until it actually is, no matter what the talk or the rumors. 

 

With that being said, I feel like there’s more of a connection to Bo and the Canucks (drafted by them, spent his entire so far with them, wants to win with the organization, etc). So on a relational level, I think there is a sense between organization and him that they want to try to get a deal done. Let’s hope that Rutherford, or whoever the new GM will be, can get it done, or else we’re essentially, if we lose both Miller and Horvat, entering into another rebuild. 

 

[Coconuts]

10 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Yeah that’s true. You never know if it’s done until it actually is, no matter what the talk or the rumors. 

 

With that being said, I feel like there’s more of a connection to Bo and the Canucks (drafted by them, spent his entire so far with them, wants to win with the organization, etc). So on a relational level, I think there is a sense between organization and him that they want to try to get a deal done. Let’s hope that Rutherford, or whoever the new GM will be, can get it done, or else we’re essentially, if we lose both Miller and Horvat, entering into another rebuild. 

 

I think it'll work out, out of him, Miller, and Boeser I actually see Bo as the most important of the three to keep. He's our captain, he's this team's primary faceoff man and he leads the league in faceoffs taken by a good margin, he provides 2c level offense and would probably be a 1c on some teams, he's been here his entire career, and despite the way some folks bag on him for being a different person/player than Miller, he provides leadership. Some folks would like an emotional, vocal leader like Miller, but I'm peachy keen with Bo. Being loud and wearing one's heart on one's sleeve may appeal to folks, but I don't believe it necessarily makes one a better leader. Leadership shows up in all sorts of ways in all sorts of people, I've never liked that knock on Bo. 

 

He'd also be the toughest to replace imo, centers who can play reliable defense (reliable, not Selke level), produce respectable offense, and win faceoffs like him are tough to acquire. And while Miller is playing center this year and thriving I still see him as more of a winger, Bo's a center through and through. 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Coconuts

[N4ZZY]

20 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I think it'll work out, out of him, Miller, and Boeser I actually see Bo as the most important of the three to keep. He's our captain, he's this team's primary faceoff man and he leads the league in faceoffs taken by a good margin, he provides 2c level offense and would probably be a 1c on some teams, he's been here his entire career, and despite the way some folks bag on him for being a different person/player than Miller, he provides leadership. Some folks would like an emotional, vocal leader like Miller, but I'm peachy keen with Bo. Being loud and wearing one's heart on one's sleeve may appeal to folks, but I don't believe it necessarily makes one a better leader. Leadership shows up in all sorts of ways in all sorts of people, I've never liked that knock on Bo. 

 

He'd also be the toughest to replace imo, centers who can play reliable defense (reliable, not Selke level), produce respectable offense, and win faceoffs like him are tough to acquire. And while Miller is playing center this year and thriving I still see him as more of a winger, Bo's a center through and through. 

 

 

  Yeah, I think I’d agree with you that the toughest to replace is probably Bo. Miller’s great at centre this year, but I think traditionally he’s played the wing, if I’m not mistaken? 

 

And I also agree that there is more than one way to lead. When the team was in a slump and were not just playing very well, I know certain fans wanted Bo to lead like Miller. The two players aren’t the same in personality or leadership styles. Doesn’t mean one is a better leader than the other. Vocal leaders sometimes can get irritating and annoying. I can’t imagine Miller yelling and swearing every single game in the season, the guy sometimes pouts and doesn’t play well when things aren’t going his way. So they’re both flawed leaders, and that’s okay. Nobody is perfect. 

[IBatch]

On 1/6/2022 at 11:19 PM, Coconuts said:

He's not, there's no avoiding that, but given his age and historical production it's unlikely he just forgot how to hockey

 

I think missing camp was bigger than some of us might have thought 

 

I don't think we'd get a sweetheart deal, but his current deal shows he was willing to at least be fair, I think the number would probably be around 6.75-7M, I think anything higher probably favours Horvat

 

But what do I know

Look what Hyman got ... Horvat is getting paid.   More then Hyman, his production is pretty decent given his line mates (Pearson and LE ) and his assignments are against quality quality guys.   Know Hyman was TO's do it all wonder kid, but Horvat is better then him, by quite a bit...Have to think 7.25 plus x8 with us and somewhere else  7.5-8 x 7.   Also think he's better then Hayes in PHI.   

Edited January 10, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

On 1/8/2022 at 3:43 AM, N4ZZY said:

I can’t really see Bo asking for more than 7M. He’s been producing at what? 50-60 points? His career high to date is 61 points. What do players like him usually get on the market? I think if he gets more than 7M, then it’s an overpayment on the part of the Canucks. We cannot afford to do that moving forward with any of our players. 

 

I’d be down for Bo, if he signs for 6.75M for 7 years. We keep the man well into his thirties. Is the maximum years 7 or 8? Regardless, he would be 33/34 years old by the time that contract is over. If he’s still producing at a decent clip then, sign him to shorter term deals at that time. He could be a great middling, or fourth line centre at that stage of his career. 

 

 

I agree he shouldn't get paid more, but feel he's going to.    Kevin Hayes, Anders Lee, two recent UFA second line C's signed at 7 ... Horvat is better then both those players, or at least on par with intangibles, and face off ace for sure is one of them ...  On the open market ?   7.5 x 7 seems pretty reasonable ... aside from some Brock Boeser for some games, his line mates are pretty tame over the years - he's got untapped offense.   Whomever gets Horvat won't be disappointed either.    That one extra year and clauses will help lower the hit, if we got him for under 7 we'd be coming out like aces.  

[Coconuts]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Look what Hyman got ... Horvat is getting paid.   More then Hyman, his production is pretty decent given his line mates (Pearson and LE ) and his assignments are against quality quality guys.   Know Hyman was TO's do it all wonder kid, but Horvat is better then him, by quite a bit...Have to think 7.25 plus x8 with us and somewhere else  7.5-8 x 7.   Also think he's better then Hayes in PHI.   

All the more reason to free up some cap I suppose 

[N4ZZY]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

I agree he shouldn't get paid more, but feel he's going to.    Kevin Hayes, Anders Lee, two recent UFA second line C's signed at 7 ... Horvat is better then both those players, or at least on par with intangibles, and face off ace for sure is one of them ...  On the open market ?   7.5 x 7 seems pretty reasonable ... aside from some Brock Boeser for some games, his line mates are pretty tame over the years - he's got untapped offense.   Whomever gets Horvat won't be disappointed either.    That one extra year and clauses will help lower the hit, if we got him for under 7 we'd be coming out like aces.  

We’ll see what Rutherford or whoever the new GM can do. But there’s bound to be some turnover on this roster for sure, either at the trade deadline or in the off-season. Miller, I suspect will probably be gone by this trade deadline, especially if they can get a better haul than say if they dealt Miller next season. Boeser may also be dealt if he doesn’t agree to a long term contract at a lower cap hit than his QO. I see Horvat coming back out of those three honestly. But you’re losing a lot in Miller and Boeser, but I guess that also depends on the returns of those two guys too. 

 

 

[N4ZZY]

3 hours ago, Coconuts said:

All the more reason to free up some cap I suppose 

Yeah. I think Boeser at his QO, and Miller will probably be shipped out then. 

 

Who else is tradeable that has a huge cap hit? OEL? But nobody is biting on that contract unless we offer our prospects, or draft picks and do we really want to be doing that considering our prospect pool is quite shallow? 

[aGENT]

Just now, N4ZZY said:

Yeah. I think Boeser at his QO, and Miller will probably be shipped out then. 

 

Who else is tradeable that has a huge cap hit? OEL? But nobody is biting on that contract unless we offer our prospects, or draft picks and do we really want to be doing that considering our prospect pool is quite shallow? 

I think OEL has actually recovered a lot of his, previously sunk in ARZ, trade value this season. With the money they retained, I think he's quite moveable. Wouldn't likely be for any huge home run in assets mind you, unless maybe we retained a further mil or something.

 

That said, I think he's got a solid 5 years left in him and we don't as yet have a succession plan for him, so I'm in no hurry to move him.

[Coconuts]

5 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

Yeah. I think Boeser at his QO, and Miller will probably be shipped out then. 

 

Who else is tradeable that has a huge cap hit? OEL? But nobody is biting on that contract unless we offer our prospects, or draft picks and do we really want to be doing that considering our prospect pool is quite shallow? 

I think OEL's fine to hold on to, I don't see us getting a clear upgrade via trade or ufa.

 

Everyone but him and Hughes though, I'm not sold on any of em beyond the next two years. Poolman's okay as a bottom pairing guy, but he isn't gonna blow anyone away.That's bottom pairing players though.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Coconuts