Jester13 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 32 minutes ago, Baggins said: If it was a true indiginous rendition it would be multi-colored. Caling it 'constipated' is an insult to Haida art as the face of the Orca is the Haida style. The Yankees logo is as boring and uncreative as you can get. It's iconic because it's been around forever (like the Habs logo), not because it's looks great or catches the eye. I get it, you like simple and boring. You like.... I like... You like.... I like... It's interesting you used the Cowboys logo as an example of a good iconic logo. Why do the Cowboys have a star as a logo? It certainly doesn't match the team name and yet you seem to like it. Weird. They're not the Dallas Stars after all. Could it be an image related to where they play? Even the Packers logo doesn't represent the team name and yet you chose than as well. Particularly weird considering you asked does a logo have to represent where the team plays and yet several of your examples of 'good logos' do exactly that. Clearly we have very different taste when it come to team logos. You believe I have "poor taste" simply because it doesn't match your boring simple taste. Neither is actually wrong, it's simply different taste. Considering your love of bland I'm actually half surprised you love the abstract C of the SiR. It is simple and bland, but it is also abstract and not easily recognized as a C at first glance. I decided to read up on what makes a "good logo" for a sports team and it asks the question what image do you want to project. It also recommended staying away from "current fads" as they can appear outdated rather quickly. The image needs to be able to stand the test of time. This is why so many go with bland and boring, but obviously it doesn't have to be considering the Raiders and Vikings logos. Both have more interesting images that have stood up to the test of time. Haida art has obviously withstood the test of time. The C shape is obviously for thew team name. The question is what does the Orca image represent? The Orca is the apex hunter of the oceans. They are very intelligent, work as a team to hunt, and are feared by even the great white shark and whales largest than themselves. Did you know that great white sharks will even abondon their hunting ground if Orca's arrive? Intelligent, feared, and team work. Would those be good qualities to project in an image for a team sport? They will even intentionally delay a kill to teach their young how to hunt as a team. They practice their young. There's a pod residing permanently off our coast and the Orca has historical ties toi the city. Where the team plays. Is representing that in your logo, as the Cowboys, Packer, and Yankees did, important to identity? Another thing recommended regarding team logos is adlusting or adding to your logo over time, and this is fine, but changing it completely should involve a great deal of consideration because you are completely changing your identity and recognition. A complete change should be well thought out regarding what image you want to project as an identity. One other interesting side note regarding choosing a logo was this tidbit:- sports teams typically have a mascot and that should also be considered when choosing, or changing your team identity. A good reason to go simple and boring is it's easily tweeked over time without completely changing the identity. It's a safe choice as opposed to an interesting choice. The bottom line is we have different taste. Neither is right or wrong. How a logo becomes iconic is time. It becomes iconic by becoming recognizable to the masses. The Yankees logo is recognizable to even non-baseball fans. It's recognizable around the world. and that's what actually makes it iconic. Constantly changing logos does nothing to accomplish that. Which is why change just for the sake of change is just a bad idea. Edit: Btw, what did you think of the Seahawks logo when they came into the league with the PNW colors for their uni? FWIW, Texas is called the Lone Star State. It can also be looked at as the shape of a spur. The SSH colours are a big reason why I'm not a huge fan of our blue and green. Lots of people get a sense that it's a PNW thing and they identify with it, but I've always felt it's a PNW of the US thing. Just my $0.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Baggins said: If it was a true indiginous rendition it would be multi-colored. Caling it 'constipated' is an insult to Haida art as the face of the Orca is the Haida style. No, the indigenous art that it's a poor reflection/cheap imitation of, doesn't look constipated. Ours does. 2 hours ago, Baggins said: The Yankees logo is as boring and uncreative as you can get. It's iconic because it's been around forever (like the Habs logo), not because it's looks great or catches the eye. I get it, you like simple and boring. Designers, the very people who do this for a living, like "simple and boring" (actually iconic and timeless). Again, logos aren't supposed to be "exciting". it should be a simple, iconic, instantly recognizable symbol for your organization. Save the fancy graphics etc for backgrounds and the like. 2 hours ago, Baggins said: It's interesting you used the Cowboys logo as an example of a good iconic logo. Why do the Cowboys have a star as a logo? It's the "Lonestar State"... 2 hours ago, Baggins said: It certainly doesn't match the team name and yet you seem to like it. Weird. They're not the Dallas Stars after all. Could it be an image related to where they play? Even the Packers logo doesn't represent the team name and yet you chose than as well. Particularly weird considering you asked does a logo have to represent where the team plays and yet several of your examples of 'good logos' do exactly that. I never made any such claim. 2 hours ago, Baggins said: Clearly we have very different taste when it come to team logos. You believe I have "poor taste" simply because it doesn't match your boring simple taste. No, I believe you have poor taste because professional people who do this for a living and critique these things for a living, suggest you have poor taste. 2 hours ago, Baggins said: Neither is actually wrong, it's simply different taste. You're welcome to like whatever you want as a fan. As far as what designers think, you're wrong. 2 hours ago, Baggins said: Considering your love of bland I'm actually half surprised you love the abstract C of the SiR. It is simple and bland, but it is also abstract and not easily recognized as a C at first glance. It's our best, most simple, most iconic logo. I didn't say it was great overall, but it is the best one we have and likely will ever have, without someone designing, yet another version (which we shouldn't as it's already silly). 2 hours ago, Baggins said: I decided to read up on what makes a "good logo" for a sports team and it asks the question what image do you want to project. It also recommended staying away from "current fads" as they can appear outdated rather quickly. The image needs to be able to stand the test of time. Exactly. Simple, iconic, timeless. 2 hours ago, Baggins said: This is why so many go with bland and boring, but obviously it doesn't have to be considering the Raiders and Vikings logos. Both have more interesting images that have stood up to the test of time. Haida art has obviously withstood the test of time. The C shape is obviously for thew team name. The question is what does the Orca image represent? The Orca is the apex hunter of the oceans. They are very intelligent, work as a team to hunt, and are feared by even the great white shark and whales largest than themselves. Did you know that great white sharks will even abondon their hunting ground if Orca's arrive? Intelligent, feared, and team work. Would those be good qualities to project in an image for a team sport? They will even intentionally delay a kill to teach their young how to hunt as a team. They practice their young. There's a pod residing permanently off our coast and the Orca has historical ties toi the city. Where the team plays. Is representing that in your logo, as the Cowboys, Packer, and Yankees did, important to identity? Another thing recommended regarding team logos is adlusting or adding to your logo over time, and this is fine, but changing it completely should involve a great deal of consideration because you are completely changing your identity and recognition. A complete change should be well thought out regarding what image you want to project as an identity. One other interesting side note regarding choosing a logo was this tidbit:- sports teams typically have a mascot and that should also be considered when choosing, or changing your team identity. A good reason to go simple and boring is it's easily tweeked over time without completely changing the identity. It's a safe choice as opposed to an interesting choice. I have no problem with orcas, or an orca logo. Our current one is simply a bad logo that happens to be an orca one. 2 hours ago, Baggins said: The bottom line is we have different taste. Neither is right or wrong. Designers/design critics would disagree. You said so yourself up above. Sorry. 2 hours ago, Baggins said: How a logo becomes iconic is time. It becomes iconic by becoming recognizable to the masses. The Yankees logo is recognizable to even non-baseball fans. It's recognizable around the world. and that's what actually makes it iconic. You need to have the logo be good in the first place, for time to make it iconic. Bad logo = zero chance of becoming iconic. 2 hours ago, Baggins said: Constantly changing logos does nothing to accomplish that. Which is why change just for the sake of change is just a bad idea. Agreed, which is why we should use our simplest, most iconic, original and best logo that already exists. 2 hours ago, Baggins said: Edit: Btw, what did you think of the Seahawks logo when they came into the league with the PNW colors for their uni? It's far better than ours (orca). Cleaner, simpler, more iconic, more faithful to it's indigenous inspiration. Not my favourite logo, but it beats the orca by miles. The SiR is better though. Edited March 1, 2022 by aGENT 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 5 hours ago, aGENT said: No, the indigenous art that it's a poor reflection/cheap imitation of, doesn't look constipated. Ours does. Designers, the very people who do this for a living, like "simple and boring" (actually iconic and timeless). Again, logos aren't supposed to be "exciting". it should be a simple, iconic, instantly recognizable symbol for your organization. Save the fancy graphics etc for backgrounds and the like. It's the "Lonestar State"... I never made any such claim. No, I believe you have poor taste because professional people who do this for a living and critique these things for a living, suggest you have poor taste. You're welcome to like whatever you want as a fan. As far as what designers think, you're wrong. It's our best, most simple, most iconic logo. I didn't say it was great overall, but it is the best one we have and likely will ever have, without someone designing, yet another version (which we shouldn't as it's already silly). Exactly. Simple, iconic, timeless. I have no problem with orcas, or an orca logo. Our current one is simply a bad logo that happens to be an orca one. Designers/design critics would disagree. You said so yourself up above. Sorry. You need to have the logo be good in the first place, for time to make it iconic. Bad logo = zero chance of becoming iconic. Agreed, which is why we should use our simplest, most iconic, original and best logo that already exists. It's far better than ours (orca). Cleaner, simpler, more iconic, more faithful to it's indigenous inspiration. Not my favourite logo, but it beats the orca by miles. The SiR is better though. First the SiR is not icon in any way. It wasn't used long enough, nor won anything, to contribute to that status in it's whopping 8 years. Classic or retro at best, but not iconic. Second, the Blackhawks logo was considered the best logo in the NHL for quite some time. It's fallen somewhat with pc times. It's the polar oppisite of what you claim makes a good logo. The Red Wings logo, which actuallly is iconic, also fail's your boring test. The simple truth is there are no hard line rules on what makes a good sports logo. Also wierd you'd like the Seahawks non-boring logo, and call it iconic, when it's such a similar style to the Orca and not boring at all. It also breaks your rules that make up an iconic logo. In the end I suspect you simply look for reasons to dislike and disqualify the Orca logo purely because it's not the boring logo you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 12 hours ago, aGENT said: Designers, the very people who do this for a living, like "simple and boring" (actually iconic and timeless). Again, logos aren't supposed to be "exciting". it should be a simple, iconic, instantly recognizable symbol for your organization. Save the fancy graphics etc for backgrounds and the like. sure, if you're trying to sell soft drinks or shoes. not a sports team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 1 hour ago, tas said: sure, if you're trying to sell soft drinks or shoes. not a sports team. Yes, a sports team. They're selling a product too. Some of the most popular teams in the world with the most iconic logos, are simple, easily recognizable designs, for a reason. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Baggins said: First the SiR is not icon in any way. It wasn't used long enough, nor won anything, to contribute to that status in it's whopping 8 years. Classic or retro at best, but not iconic. Closest thing we have. 8 hours ago, Baggins said: Second, the Blackhawks logo was considered the best logo in the NHL for quite some time. It's fallen somewhat with pc times. It's the polar oppisite of what you claim makes a good logo. The Red Wings logo, which actuallly is iconic, also fail's your boring test. Neither are as overwrought as the Wild, or coyotes logos and there are certainly exceptions to every rule. They're both far better implementations of "non-simple" logos than the orca. 8 hours ago, Baggins said: The simple truth is there are no hard line rules on what makes a good sports logo. Hard? No. General guidelines. Yes. Most good logos are simple. Period. To "hit" on a "non-simple" logo is rare and you have to get a LOT right. The orca doesn't. 8 hours ago, Baggins said: Also wierd you'd like the Seahawks non-boring logo, and call it iconic, when it's such a similar style to the Orca and not boring at all. It also breaks your rules that make up an iconic logo. Like is a strong word. It's better than the orca. It is in a similar style, but far better implemented, more faithful to its inspiration and far simpler. It's actually fairly simple if you look at it. Less so than say the Packers logo but more simple than the orca, or the Wild etc. I wouldn't (and didn't) say I "like" it, but it's a far superior version of a PNW-indigenous art inspired logo, if that's what one is going for. 8 hours ago, Baggins said: In the end I suspect you simply look for reasons to dislike and disqualify the Orca logo purely because it's not the boring logo you want. I don't like it because it's an awkward, contrived, overwrought, bad logo. If they'd designed a good orca logo, I'd have zero problems with it. I LOVE the Whalers logo, it's whale themed. Whales aren't the problem here. I suspect you're simply looking for reasons to defend the bad orca logo because it's the logo you want. Unfortunately, it's a bad logo. Edited March 1, 2022 by aGENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 21 minutes ago, aGENT said: Yes, a sports team. They're selling a product too. Some of the most popular teams in the world with the most iconic logos, are simple, easily recognizable designs, for a reason. and many don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 Just now, tas said: and many don't. Some, sure. But again you have to get a LOT right with those and some of them, while certainly recognizable, popular etc still aren't "good" logos. Soccer teams probably the most common with "bad" but popular logos. There's a few popular clubs with atrocious logos, that are popular because of the clubs, not the logos. And I'd wager non fans wouldn't have a clue what team or sport the logo is for at a glance. I loathe baseball, never watch it. But I could spot the Yankees logo from a mile and tell you what team and sport it is. Almost like they got something right with the logo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 Someone needs to create a good Johnny Canuck logo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 1 hour ago, aGENT said: Some, sure. But again you have to get a LOT right with those and some of them, while certainly recognizable, popular etc still aren't "good" logos. Soccer teams probably the most common with "bad" but popular logos. There's a few popular clubs with atrocious logos, that are popular because of the clubs, not the logos. And I'd wager non fans wouldn't have a clue what team or sport the logo is for at a glance. I loathe baseball, never watch it. But I could spot the Yankees logo from a mile and tell you what team and sport it is. Almost like they got something right with the logo... the yankees are recognizable because they're the most famous team in their league, are 120 years old, and are based in the center of western civilization. and their recognizable NY logo that you're referring to also hasn't been their primary logo since 1946. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 How about this one? Abbotsford could use the same but turn the V upside down for an A. I'd personally love these, but I'd also welcome a colour update where we can have black jerseys, so black, white, green, and blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 2 hours ago, tas said: the yankees are recognizable because they're the most famous team in their league, are 120 years old, and are based in the center of western civilization. and their recognizable NY logo that you're referring to also hasn't been their primary logo since 1946. And it's a good logo. The logo is kind of important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Jester13 said: How about this one? Abbotsford could use the same but turn the V upside down for an A. I'd personally love these, but I'd also welcome a colour update where we can have black jerseys, so black, white, green, and blue. Not enough orca for some Could certainly use some polishing, but the basic concept is not awful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 11 minutes ago, aGENT said: Not enough orca for some Could certainly use some polishing, but the basic concept is not awful. Agreed it needs some polishing. Maybe we could throw some teeth on it as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 Just now, Jester13 said: Agreed it needs some polishing. Maybe we could throw some teeth on it as well. Tack a fin on while we're at it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 Just now, aGENT said: Tack a fin on while we're at it Let's not get silly, aGENT. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, Jester13 said: Agreed it needs some polishing. Maybe we could throw some teeth on it as well. Change the name to the Vancouver Killers (short for killer whales), with the black skate jerseys, new mean orca logo with blood in the water (red) and highlights (yellow) - would tie into the colour scheme. Hey, if NJ can be called the Devils and no one complaining... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 11 minutes ago, Jester13 said: Let's not get silly, aGENT. In all seriousness though, the last thing we probably need is ANOTHER logo. The SiR is certainly not perfect, or remotely the best logo ever. But it's the closest thing we have in our library of meh to logos without reinventing the wheel AGAIN. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 37 minutes ago, aGENT said: And it's a good logo. The logo is kind of important. not important enough for them to decide not to change their main identity almost 80 years ago to a far more detailed, less plain logo. hmmm ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 7 minutes ago, tas said: not important enough for them to decide not to change their main identity almost 80 years ago to a far more detailed, less plain logo. hmmm ... And yet the older, simpler logo endures and is more popular and considered by design professionals, to be one of the best logos in the world, compared to the "modern" graphic one...hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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