[PGT] Detroit Red Wings at Vancouver Canucks | Mar. 17, 2022

[DeNiro]

Just now, Alflives said:

Trying to accomplish winning now while building for the future is exactly what Benning did.  And that's been an 8 year disaster, right?  We have Petey, Demko, Huges and how many prospects coming up?  Trading Miller now is the key move to creating a 5-7 year window that starts in 2 years.  

Or we end up trading our best players for prospects that never pan out.

Demko wastes his best years while this team tries to replace the loss of Miller.

 

Getting a bunch of shiny new prospects doesn’t guarantee anything.
 

Benning failed for a lot of reasons. He had plenty of opportunities to build through the draft while icing a competitive roster and he came up short on both ends. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

Or we end up trading our best players for prospects that never pan out.

Demko wastes his best years while this team tries to replace the loss of Miller.

 

Getting a bunch of shiny new prospects doesn’t guarantee anything.
 

Benning failed for a lot of reasons. He had plenty of opportunities to build through the draft while icing a competitive roster and he came up short on both ends. 

We trade Miller and who else (really one of our best) is traded too?

 

[DeNiro]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

We trade Miller and who else (really one of our best) is traded too?

 

Boeser or Garland?

 

Regardless of what some people may think of them that’s still 50-60 points from those players that would need replacing.

[khay]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

We had 101 points under Willie D in 2014, right?  It's about building a team that is consistently (for a 5-7 year stretch) a top team and in the hunt for a Cup.  I think trading Miller before this TDL creates that 5-7 year window (starting in two years) while keeping him gives us a 2 year window now.  The chances of both those window projections are likely very similar too.  So do we take a step back now for a 5 year longer window (that we see open in two years) or do we take the window now that lasts for only two years?  I have my fingers, eyes, and toes crossed that JR does what he first said on coming here and goes for the longer window two years away. 

 

101 points under WD was more of a continuation of the Sedin era. We should have made the playoffs the season prior to that as well, if not for Torts. He was just the worst coach given the makeup of the team. I think we should've kept AV as the coach a bit longer.

 

I think we can build a winner with what we have up front but defence needs improve, both in terms of better defenceman and forwards that can lock in down. 

 

[Alflives]

Just now, DeNiro said:

Boeser or Garland?

 

Regardless of what some people may think of them that’s still 50-60 points from those players that would need replacing.

Miller goes and why do we trade away guys who are in their primes through the planned winning window?  Moving Miller is the key to us developing into a consistent winner.  

[lmm]

13 minutes ago, khay said:

lol

 

News just in: Canucks have traded all of their players and decided to forfeit remaining games. Abbotsford Canucks will be playing in the Rogers Arena for the remainder of the season.

 

To clarify, I don't think there will be a major trade, i.e., involving Boeser, Miller, Garland. I'd be surprised if there is a trade involving one of these major pieces.

 

and that would be a sad sad thing

[khay]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Miller goes and why do we trade away guys who are in their primes through the planned winning window?  Moving Miller is the key to us developing into a consistent winner.  

Can Petey, Boes, Garland, and Horvat handle bulk of the scoring? Hoggy and Podz aren't quite there yet.

 

If Miller re-signs on a 4-5 year deal, I'd say we keep him and give Petey time to become #1C in that time frame.

 

[lmm]

2 minutes ago, khay said:

Can Petey, Boes, Garland, and Horvat handle bulk of the scoring? Hoggy and Podz aren't quite there yet.

 

If Miller re-signs on a 4-5 year deal, I'd say we keep him and give Petey time to become #1C in that time frame.

 

but who in Miller's position signs for 4-5 years?

and we can't sign him until after July 1 

so there is no saying he won't change his mind between now and then

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, khay said:

Can Petey, Boes, Garland, and Horvat handle bulk of the scoring? Hoggy and Podz aren't quite there yet.

 

If Miller re-signs on a 4-5 year deal, I'd say we keep him and give Petey time to become #1C in that time frame.

 

Why would Miller sign any deal less than 70 million though?  We either can win with our current younger players as the core, or we need to totally tear it down and rebuild completely.  Demko, Hughes, Petey, Bo, Bess, Garland, Pods, Hogs and any youth coming up over the next two-three seasons are the future.  Miller's value is in the cap space he opens when leaving and in the young assets he returns in trade.  (OEL, whether we like it or not, is part of our core for the next 6 years.)

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, lmm said:

but who in Miller's position signs for 4-5 years?

and we can't sign him until after July 1 

so there is no saying he won't change his mind between now and then

And as Miller's season progresses next year his trade value drops.  He's never going to have more trade value than right now.  He's not part of our next window (JR says opens in two years) so we should move him out and collect the assets to help during that coming window.  

[lmm]

20 minutes ago, spook007 said:

True... think most of us would, but not with one of the ugly sisters...

It has to make sense for us, and so far that doesn't seem to be the case...  Don't want to make trade just to make a trade... At worst Miller stay in VCR another year and get dealt at that TDL next year, unless we are on a cinderella run...

Still nearly 3 days to go. Plenty of time....

the thing about waiting til the last minute is you are only looking at the players in a playoff push

if a couple of trades get made before the deadline and the leadership falls on its face because of that, that is useful information.

I think way too much has been made of," these players have earned the right/deserve to finish this run"

this is the same team that fell on their faces early in the season, and got blown out several times since and couldn't figure out how to change the landscape 2 nights ago

 

I am not a believer in the "Players Deserve" theory

IF a couple of moves are made for the future, and every player on the team asks to be traded, that is useful information

All that would prove is our leaders are not the leaders you need going forward

[lmm]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

And as Miller's season progresses next year his trade value drops.  He's never going to have more trade value than right now.  He's not part of our next window (JR says opens in two years) so we should move him out and collect the assets to help during that coming window.  

Alf, I don't know whats going on, but I have agreed with everything you've said today

Thats just weird

Have one or the other of us been taken over by aliens?

Oh wait... you are an alien

It must be me

[lmm]

17 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Why would Miller sign any deal less than 70 million though?  We either can win with our current younger players as the core, or we need to totally tear it down and rebuild completely.  Demko, Hughes, Petey, Bo, Bess, Garland, Pods, Hogs and any youth coming up over the next two-three seasons are the future.  Miller's value is in the cap space he opens when leaving and in the young assets he returns in trade.  (OEL, whether we like it or not, is part of our core for the next 6 years.)

Oh but he is, Its Jimmers gift that keeps on giving for the forseeable future

[spook007]

1 minute ago, lmm said:

the thing about waiting til the last minute is you are only looking at the players in a playoff push

if a couple of trades get made before the deadline and the leadership falls on its face because of that, that is useful information.

I think way too much has been made of," these players have earned the right/deserve to finish this run"

this is the same team that fell on their faces early in the season, and got blown out several times since and couldn't figure out how to change the landscape 2 nights ago

 

I am not a believer in the "Players Deserve" theory

IF a couple of moves are made for the future, and every player on the team asks to be traded, that is useful information

All that would prove is our leaders are not the leaders you need going forward

Fair point

Thing is though, if the only thing being offered are scrubs or other teams left overs, you don't do it...

Doesn't matter who deserved what. You don't give up Miller, Garland or whoever for other teams left overs.

If that is all they offer, you keep you players and take stock... Same for everyone... 

 

I won't mind anyone getting traded, and the defeat to Wings made me change my mind. But the trades have to make us better, eventually, so unless it represents good youngsters ready, or just about ready to enter the show, you stand pat, and wait until summer. 

[lmm]

42 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Fair point

Thing is though, if the only thing being offered are scrubs or other teams left overs, you don't do it...

Doesn't matter who deserved what. You don't give up Miller, Garland or whoever for other teams left overs.

If that is all they offer, you keep you players and take stock... Same for everyone... 

 

I won't mind anyone getting traded, and the defeat to Wings made me change my mind. But the trades have to make us better, eventually, so unless it represents good youngsters ready, or just about ready to enter the show, you stand pat, and wait until summer. 

I agree with you

but I guess the way I look at things is that we have a new regime

I give them the benefit of the doubt until they show they are not competent

I don't pretend to be a scout, and I don't pay a lot of attention to all the young guys on other teams

If Patty trades for Joe Slubotnic and he is a big right handed D-man with some good stats, great

But if he starts trading for Linden Vey or Brandon Sutter or signs LE, Sam G or Mike F I'm gonna start skwawking just like I did with Jimmer

 

I think we agree, that the plan needs to be good, as does the execution of said plan

I am not a fan of win one game, change the plan to buy.

I don't think this team is deep enough or varied enough to go anywhere in the playoffs

 

that Detroit game  shows we are a one trick pony and that if the other team does not allow us free passage to the net, we struggle

that is not a winning formula 

 

I sure would like a return like Chicago got though

maybe twice 

[khay]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Why would Miller sign any deal less than 70 million though?  We either can win with our current younger players as the core, or we need to totally tear it down and rebuild completely.  Demko, Hughes, Petey, Bo, Bess, Garland, Pods, Hogs and any youth coming up over the next two-three seasons are the future.  Miller's value is in the cap space he opens when leaving and in the young assets he returns in trade.  (OEL, whether we like it or not, is part of our core for the next 6 years.)

If he believes in himself, he might? It will take higher AAV, probably 10 mil per year coupled with some convincing, using NMC, it's possible? 

 

Miller should be aware that no contending team can offer him the prime ice time the way we do. And if he believes that the record under Boudreau truly reflects where we are as a team, that is, a top 10 team in the league and the players we have up and coming can help build a winner, he might be convinced to stay.

 

The only teams that can offer him 70 mil deal (7 years x 10 mil) are non-playoff teams. 

 

If he decides to test the market, then yes we will have to trade him and start on a retool.

 

I'm happy either way. The return for Miller should more than help get the retool underway.

 

[Canuckfanforlife82]

6 hours ago, Alflives said:

And as Miller's season progresses next year his trade value drops.  He's never going to have more trade value than right now.  He's not part of our next window (JR says opens in two years) so we should move him out and collect the assets to help during that coming window.  

I know right. Why would he sign here? We aren’t close. As much as people want to make up whatever fantasy they want to, they aren’t close and he is older. He most likely wants to win a cup. His value is at its highest now. Winning the cup is and should be the only thing that matters. Not making the playoffs once.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Canuckfanforlife82