[PGT] Vancouver Canucks at Edmonton Oilers | Dec. 23, 2022

[Odd.]

1 minute ago, mordekai said:

Did coilers split up their three centres to counter our 3 centres? Normally coilers activate mcjesus and drais together.

They put them together the last 7 minutes of the game lol. They spammed McDavid all 3rd period long.

[Gurn]

4 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

, Boudreau isn’t confident he has the personnel to run 3 effective lines. 

Yes,  Miller is on the wing because he sucks at center ice this season, which is why Bruce doesn't think he can run 3 top lines.

If Miller was scoring a bit more AND better defensively he would be playing center. Shame, as the team could realy use 3 top guys playing in the middle, then Aman/Lazar fighting it out for 4rth line pivot.

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, Odd. said:

I don’t understand some peoples logic on here advocating we trade our 2nd best player to make our team “better”.
 

How do we exactly make our team better by trading a PPG, all situations, high minute munching, 23 year old, high hockey IQ’d defenseman? It makes absolutely no sense and it is pointless. Why do people want to trade every good player, gamble on the idea that MAYBE the return could fetch better players 3+4 YEARS down the road, rinse and repeat. It makes no sense. You don’t trade a 23 year old defenseman described above. That is mindboggling.

 

Hughes is up there with the likes of Fox, Makar, Heiskanen, Dahlin, as the best young defensemans in the entire league. You just don’t trade these types of players unless you want to be stuck in a perennial cycle of mediocrity trying to find the next shiny new object then realize what you had before was x10 better.

Sorry, Hughes is, at least, a tier below all of those guys.

 

If NJ offered Holtz, Mercer, severson and a first, I wouldnt think twice about it.  Maybe throw in Rathbone and get Bahl as well.

[canuck73_3]

59 minutes ago, stawns said:

I'd be interested in the two potentially elite players and first round pick that they would get back, coming the other way.......plus the $ for Horvat.

 

I like Hughes, but I dont see him as the franchise dman that many do.  He's a good 5v5 damn and a good puck distributor on the PP, buthes not irreplaceable.

 

Again, you only trade him for a huge return, you're not dumping him.

The thing with package deals is that you’re giving up the best player in the deal. There is zero reason for us to trade Quinn, the age fits our teams timeline, he's locked up with term, no actual sign he wants to go anywhere. And there are other ways we can fit players under cap without giving up one of our 2 best dmen. 
 

Trading Quinn now makes less than zero sense for us, period. 

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

The thing with package deals is that you’re giving up the best player in the deal. There is zero reason for us to trade Quinn, the age fits our teams timeline, he's locked up with term, no actual sign he wants to go anywhere. And there are other ways we can fit players under cap without giving up one of our 2 best dmen. 
 

Trading Quinn now makes less than zero sense for us, period. 

Because they need depth and young, cheap players.  Move out one high value player and get three potentially elite pieces, who are ready to start becoming impact players back.

 

Seems like a no brainer to me

Edited December 25, 2022 by stawns

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

Because they need depth and young, cheap players.  Move out one high value player and get three potentially elite pieces, who are ready to start becoming impact players back.

 

Seems like a no brainer to me

That is not really how that works and you know it. 3 lotto tickets and if we’re lucky, 1 works out. 
 

there are 10-15 moves make/take as a GM here before even considering moving Quinn. 

[Gurn]

Any player, if the return is good enough

Any player, if the return is good enough

Any player, if the return is good enough

 

tldr?

Any player, if the return is good enough

[stawns]

Just now, canuck73_3 said:

That is not really how that works and you know it. 3 lotto tickets and if we’re lucky, 1 works out. 
 

there are 10-15 moves make/take as a GM here before even considering moving Quinn. 

Well Holtz has played very well in the AHL and would likely slot right into Vans lineup, Mercer is already a legit NHL C at 21 and you could package nJ first with Vans and move up into the top 10 and get another top C prospect.

 

They also get Severson on an expiring contract and can decide if they want to re-sign him, but if not they get the cap space.  So on top of three pretty sure fire assets, you also get Horvat.

 

All for one player who is a pp specialist and just above average 5v5.

[Odd.]

11 minutes ago, stawns said:

Sorry, Hughes is, at least, a tier below all of those guys.

 

If NJ offered Holtz, Mercer, severson and a first, I wouldnt think twice about it.  Maybe throw in Rathbone and get Bahl as well.

We have a plethora of wingers such as Hoglander and Podkolzin that makes Holtz redundant, so right off the bat, that’s one non positional need coming back. 
 

Next up, Severson. A guy who has been on a rapid decline, who is questionable defensively,  has been on the ice for a GA more than any of his teammates, a UFA and is likely to ask $6.5Mx7. So right there, we’re getting negative value now and long term.
 

Then you have Mercer, the only young, positional player you’ve named that is of a need for us. Defensively, he’s not the greatest. Good offensive skill set, has top 6 upside. Now compare that Hughes. 2 years older, PPG, minute munching, all situations defenseman. The value isn’t even close.

 

That would be literally the worst trade this franchise has ever seen.

[stawns]

4 minutes ago, Odd. said:

We have a plethora of wingers such as Hoglander and Podkolzin that makes Holtz redundant, so right off the bat, that’s one non positional need coming back. 
 

Next up, Severson. A guy who has been on a rapid decline, who is questionable defensively,  has been on the ice for a GA more than any of his teammates, a UFA and is likely to ask $6.5Mx7. So right there, we’re getting negative value now and long term.
 

Then you have Mercer, the only young, positional player you’ve named that is of a need for us. Defensively, he’s not the greatest. Good offensive skill set, has top 6 upside. Now compare that Hughes. 2 years older, PPG, minute munching, all situations defenseman. The value isn’t even close.

 

That would be literally the worst trade this franchise has ever seen.

Hiltz makes lesser wingers redundant, especially as the likes of Pearson expire.  He has an elite level shot and skill and has a good chance at being a high scoring winger in the NHL.  He makes it much easier to move other wingers.  Worst case scenario, you flip him for a dman.

 

I think you greatly overvalue Hughes

 

Severson is s an expiring contract which gives the Canucks all kinds of room to retain horvat and also add depth.  So really, it's Hughes for 5 significant pieces.  I can't believe people would rather see the team wallow in the middle than make a move that could add skill, depth and also retain horvat

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by stawns

[Odd.]

11 minutes ago, stawns said:

Well Holtz has played very well in the AHL and would likely slot right into Vans lineup, Mercer is already a legit NHL C at 21 and you could package nJ first with Vans and move up into the top 10 and get another top C prospect.

 

They also get Severson on an expiring contract and can decide if they want to re-sign him, but if not they get the cap space.  So on top of three pretty sure fire assets, you also get Horvat.

 

All for one player who is a pp specialist and just above average 5v5.

Calling Hughes a PP specialist when he plays 24 minutes a night is laughably false
 

You also mention Hughes is a tier below Fox Makar and Dahlin. That is laughably false. Go and take a look at PPG, also, go and take a look at xGF xGA, take a look at their shot suppression, zone exits, zone entries, defensive zone starts, and you will quickly realize where Hughes ranks among them, which is right around there.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Odd.

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Calling Hughes a PP specialist when he plays 24 minutes a night. 
 

You also mention Hughes is a tier below Fox Makar and Dahlin. That is laughably false. Go and take a look at PPG, also, go and take a look at xGF xGA, take a look at their shot suppression, zone exits, zone entries, defensive zone starts, and you will quickly realize where Hughes ranks among them, which is right around there.

Fortunately Allvin isn’t a moron, so Hughes won’t be traded for such a moronic return.  And, just to add, Power is playing the number 1 D role on the Sabres.  

Edited December 25, 2022 by Alflives

[stawns]

1 minute ago, Odd. said:

Calling Hughes a PP specialist when he plays 24 minutes a night is laughably false
 

You also mention Hughes is a tier below Fox Makar and Dahlin. That is laughably false. Go and take a look at PPG, also, go and take a look at xGF xGA, take a look at their shot suppression, zone exits, zone entries, defensive zone starts, and you will quickly realize where Hughes ranks among them, which is right around there.

He's a pp specialist in that that's where he makes his impact.  He doesnt score, doesn't penetrate the inside of the ice in the ozone........I had thought he might develop into a rover kind of dman, but that hasn't come to fruition.  He's turning out to be more passive than I'd hoped he would be.  

[Odd.]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

Hiltz makes lesser wingers redundant, especially as the likes of Pearson expire.  He has an elite level shot and skill and has a good chance at being a high scoring winger in the NHL.  He makes it much easier to move other wingers.  Worst case scenario, you flip him for a dman.

 

I think you greatly overvalue Hughes

Some people just really don’t know what they have until it’s gone. 
 

Hughes is a top 15 defenseman in the NHL. You don’t trade a top 15 defenseman for the packages you’re offering. 

[Timråfan]

26 minutes ago, Odd. said:

I don’t understand some peoples logic on here advocating we trade our 2nd best player to make our team “better”.
 

How do we exactly make our team better by trading a PPG, all situations, high minute munching, 23 year old, high hockey IQ’d defenseman? It makes absolutely no sense and it is pointless. Why do people want to trade every good player, gamble on the idea that MAYBE the return could fetch better players 3+4 YEARS down the road, rinse and repeat. It makes no sense. You don’t trade a 23 year old defenseman described above. That is mindboggling.

 

Hughes is up there with the likes of Fox, Makar, Heiskanen, Dahlin, as the best young defensemans in the entire league. You just don’t trade these types of players unless you want to be stuck in a perennial cycle of mediocrity trying to find the next shiny new object then realize what you had before was x10 better.

Look at the trade between Philadelphia and Quebec where Lindros went one way and a lot of others incl Forsberg the other

 

It will be great ready to play players, prospects and 1sts 

 

If that won’t be good enough for you maybe the thought of Hughes get crushed in playoffs because we don’t have a team to protect him.

 

[stawns]

Just now, Odd. said:

Some people just really don’t know what they have until it’s gone. 
 

Hughes is a top 15 defenseman in the NHL. You don’t trade a top 15 defenseman for the packages you’re offering. 

He is not a top 15 dman in the NHL, sorry

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

He is not a top 15 dman in the NHL, sorry

That’s because he’s top 10. 

[Odd.]

Just now, stawns said:

He's a pp specialist in that that's where he makes his impact.  He doesnt score, doesn't penetrate the inside of the ice in the ozone........I had thought he might develop into a rover kind of dman, but that hasn't come to fruition.  He's turning out to be more passive than I'd hoped he would be.  

He definitely has his deficiencies, however, that’s simply not his game. He plays a transitional game, always looking for breakouts like a literal quarterback. On the contrary, I don’t think you quite understand the type of defenseman he really is. 

[stawns]

Just now, Odd. said:

He definitely has his deficiencies, however, that’s simply not his game. He plays a transitional game, always looking for breakouts like a literal quarterback. On the contrary, I don’t think you quite understand the type of defenseman he really is. 

He's an excellent passer and puck mover, no argument here.  To me, that's not worth $8m when he's average defensively and can't score goals. They can add a UFA dman from the cap savings if they let severson walk.  So by moving Hughes, you could theoretically get

 

Holtz

Mercer 

Severson (for the rest of the year)

Horvat

UFA #3-4 damn

 

That would be ridiculous value for Hughes

 

 

 

[Odd.]

22 minutes ago, stawns said:

He's an excellent passer and puck mover, no argument here.  To me, that's not worth $8m when he's average defensively and can't score goals. They can add a UFA dman from the cap savings if they let severson walk.  So by moving Hughes, you could theoretically get

 

Holtz

Mercer 

Severson (for the rest of the year)

Horvat

UFA #3-4 damn

 

That would be ridiculous value for Hughes

 

 

 

Mercer and Holtz coming back for Hughes is insanely underwhelming, respectively.
 

Like I mentioned above, Mercer’s defensive deficiencies, and him having a slow year this year (despite being 21), and Holtz who is undersized and not physically ready for the NHL are risky gambles to bet on for an established defenseman like Hughes.
 

Using the cap to retain Horvat instead of Hughes is another great mistake. We lose a positional and organizational strength to essentially keep Horvat around at a depreciating long term contract while having 2 other 30 year olds with long term depreciating contracts, coupled with 2 young forwards who don’t provide much of an immediate or future impact, I’m sorry but that’s mediocrity written all over.

 

Instead what we can and should do is trade Horvat for a young RHD prospect or an established RHD in the league such as Carlo, Peeke, Cernak or Perbix, etc, use the cap space to find another RHD or a 3rd line center, trade Myers and Schenn for some picks, and move Garland or Boeser for again picks and maybe a short term contract in return, effectively shedding cap space now, and in the future.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Odd.