Hockey Hall of Fame Mandatory Waiting Period - Who next?

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, HKSR said:

Omg are you serious? Howe and Hull played in the WHA in the twilight years of their careers.  Howe played in that league in his 40s and still dominated.  Hull put up 117 points at 39 years old in the WHA, went back to the NHL at 40 and managed only 17pts in 27 games before calling it quits.  It's not even close.  You have no clue.

HKSR, just a simple question,  when did you start watching hockey?    Ovi is special,  because he's great at his craft and durable.  But he's no Mario or Gretzky.    He won't score 74 short handed goals because he doesn't kill penalties.   And doubt he breaks Wayne's even strength goals either. although it's possible if he plays a lot longer.   GPG matter too.   As does context, one was a center,  the other a PP shooter.   More than anything, it matters if you saw these guys play.    Most at least got to see Bure.    Bossy was pretty dynamite too.    There is first ten years of Gretzky, Mario and Bossy, and then everyone else.   Bure is awfully close too.    Rechhi, Dave Anderchyuk and even Sundin to a degree compared to others HHOF a was in part do to their  careers with longevity.     Ovi is the greatest goal scorers of his generation.   Stamkos had terrible injury luck after sophomore year like Bure ... he's probably the second best goal scorer.   

 

I'm sure there is an old timer that remembers Richard too.   Of course Hull...Is Howe the second or third best goal scorer all-time?   Well back when Richard played, virtually everyone would say it was the Rocket.    Too bad Ovi didn't have better competition, just Mathews now and Pasta and McDavid...Stamkos could have if he wasn't cursed maybe ... and 3 of those guys are also centers.   Gartner scored over 700... nobody considered him that special, Biestra makes a good point.   Personally think playoff goals matter too. Curiously Gretzky has Howe beat combined by like one goal. 

[HKSR]

48 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Lol.   Howe was 51.   And his production was on a steady decline from 45,46,47 aged seasons... If anything Howe(s) WHA and then final year is a testament to how close those leagues were.   Plus I will take Gretzky's word for it, his time playing against Howe his rookie year, and the quality of guys in the WHA.   Why didn't he score more in the WHA?  It's not like he gained any weight ... and didn't obliterate every single league he ever played in since a boy.   His best season?   When he was 11-12, almost 400 points.  

Howe went from 103pts in 76gms, to 71pts in 76gms, finally down to 52pts in 63gms in the NHL before taking 2 years off.  He was 41, 42 and 43 years old respectively at that time.

 

At 46 years old he makes a comeback.  Joins the WHA, and instantly has a 100pt season followed by 4 more seasons where he's more than a point a game.  Meanwhile at a younger age in the NHL, he was already declining in production.  He finishes up in the WHA with a 43pt campaign in 58 games.  The very next year goes back to the NHL and again has poor production and only manages 41pts in 80 games.  

 

It's pretty evident that the WHA was a much weaker league.

 

And are you really insinuating that Gretzky should have scored more at 18 years of age?  His very first professional season against men?  You know deep down that that is a pretty weak argument lol

[HKSR]

21 minutes ago, IBatch said:

HKSR, just a simple question,  when did you start watching hockey?    Ovi is special,  because he's great at his craft and durable.  But he's no Mario or Gretzky.    He won't score 74 short handed goals because he doesn't kill penalties.   And doubt he breaks Wayne's even strength goals either. although it's possible if he plays a lot longer.   GPG matter too.   As does context, one was a center,  the other a PP shooter.   More than anything, it matters if you saw these guys play.    Most at least got to see Bure.    Bossy was pretty dynamite too.    There is first ten years of Gretzky, Mario and Bossy, and then everyone else.   Bure is awfully close too.    Rechhi, Dave Anderchyuk and even Sundin to a degree compared to others HHOF a was in part do to their  careers with longevity.     Ovi is the greatest goal scorers of his generation.   Stamkos had terrible injury luck after sophomore year like Bure ... he's probably the second best goal scorer.   

 

I'm sure there is an old timer that remembers Richard too.   Of course Hull...Is Howe the second or third best goal scorer all-time?   Well back when Richard played, virtually everyone would say it was the Rocket.    Too bad Ovi didn't have better competition, just Mathews now and Pasta and McDavid...Stamkos could have if he wasn't cursed maybe ... and 3 of those guys are also centers.   Gartner scored over 700... nobody considered him that special, Biestra makes a good point.   Personally think playoff goals matter too. Curiously Gretzky has Howe beat combined by like one goal. 

Old enough to have watched Gretzky and Bossy live at the coliseum.  Why?

[IBatch]

58 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Howe went from 103pts in 76gms, to 71pts in 76gms, finally down to 52pts in 63gms in the NHL before taking 2 years off.  He was 41, 42 and 43 years old respectively at that time.

 

At 46 years old he makes a comeback.  Joins the WHA, and instantly has a 100pt season followed by 4 more seasons where he's more than a point a game.  Meanwhile at a younger age in the NHL, he was already declining in production.  He finishes up in the WHA with a 43pt campaign in 58 games.  The very next year goes back to the NHL and again has poor production and only manages 41pts in 80 games.  

 

It's pretty evident that the WHA was a much weaker league.

 

And are you really insinuating that Gretzky should have scored more at 18 years of age?  His very first professional season against men?  You know deep down that that is a pretty weak argument lol

Discounting his WHA season, against "men", in a league and era that inspired slapshot at 17.   He did score more at 18, which was my point.    What I pointed out was he scored more in the NHL, as did others, which Biestra also pointed out.   Using Gordie Howe as a measuring stick is silly.    Mark Howe, not so much.   Maybe read his book (Gretzky) and see how he feels about his first pro year.    Or learn a little more about why the WHA played the NHL, and why eventually the two guys who didn't want to buy out the WHA, we're so threatened by it, decided to agree with what the majority wanted to do by it's second year.    Instead they fought it in the courts,  lost - and lost a lot of their talent, guys like Miller and Horvat today, not just Hull.

 

Never said it was as good, but do believe you're not giving it enough credit.   It's not like the KHL versus the NHL.      It would he like if the AHL today competed seven years ago and signed Ovi.   And a bunch followed, AND McDavid signed.   There is no other league that's come close to it.    WHA won their little tournament and proved their mettle.    As for Wayne, the point is he dominated in every league.   Even at 17.   At 18, 19, 20 etc.   Ovi is a great player, but he's not Gretzky.    And well, as you know Bossy was special too. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by IBatch

[HKSR]

26 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Discounting his WHA season, against "men", in a league and era that inspired slapshot at 17.   He did score more at 18, which was my point.    What I pointed out was he scored more in the NHL, as did others, which Biestra also pointed out.   Using Gordie Howe as a measuring stick is silly.    Mark Howe, not so much.   Maybe read his book (Gretzky) and see how he feels about his first pro year.    Or learn a little more about why the WHA played the NHL, and why eventually the two guys who didn't want to buy out the WHA, we're so threatened by it, decided to agree with what the majority wanted to do by it's second year.    Instead they fought it in the courts,  lost - and lost a lot of their talent, guys like Miller and Horvat today, not just Hull.

 

Never said it was as good, but do believe you're not giving it enough credit.   It's not like the KHL versus the NHL.      It would he like if the AHL today competed seven years ago and signed Ovi.   And a bunch followed, AND McDavid signed.   There is no other league that's come close to it.    WHA won their little tournament and proved their mettle.    As for Wayne, the point is he dominated in every league.   Even at 17.   At 18, 19, 20 etc.   Ovi is a great player, but he's not Gretzky.    And well, as you know Bossy was special too. 

Uhh... so because Gretzky scored more as a 20 something year old in his prime in the NHL vs as an 18 year old rookie in the WHA, it makes the WHA the stronger league? 

[Kevin Biestra]

3 hours ago, HKSR said:

Uhh... so because Gretzky scored more as a 20 something year old in his prime in the NHL vs as an 18 year old rookie in the WHA, it makes the WHA the stronger league? 

 

Jeez are you capable of honest logical discussion?  Nobody said the WHA was the STRONGER league.  He already said it wasn't.

[DownUndaCanuck]

Not sure how Jagr isn't already there but yes I think Crosby and Ovi go in together to be honest, unless Ovi breaks the goal scoring record...

[Kevin Biestra]

41 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Not sure how Jagr isn't already there but yes I think Crosby and Ovi go in together to be honest, unless Ovi breaks the goal scoring record...

 

Just not jumping the gun on his actually being retired no doubt.  He is still playing in Czechoslovakia.

 

I don't think Ovechkin breaking the record or not will have any consequence on whether he goes in with Crosby or not.  Trust me, they will both go in at the earliest opportunity available and with the same honor, be that immediately after the waiting period for both or waiving it for both.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

As for AJ, good thread.    Not entirely opposed to waving the period, and originally voted IF they did waive, who would they waive - both Crosby and Ovi.      Of course that's assuming they both keep up their high level of play another 4-5 seasons.    That would be enough to separate themselves from the rest of the pack.    Yzerman, Jagr, Espo,  Dionne, Hull senior,   and maybe Borque and Coffey.    But still think that bar was set too high with the last three players.   And maybe they should wait for another next level guy to show up.   Don't have to apologize for saying neither Ovi or Crosby are.   Most would pick Crosby over Ovi if they made a team.   

Edited April 8, 2023 by IBatch

[D.B Cooper]

The only one that actually should would be Ovechkin, but only if he breaks the goals record.  
If he does, no questions asked.  
The day after he retires, he goes to the hall.  
Political beliefs aside, he is going to go down as the leagues all time goal scoring leader.   
That’s pretty damn wild.