Junkyard Dog Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 Just now, Warhippy said: Yes, it is a bit subjective as it is spread between provincial and federal revenue but significantly. https://www.forbes.com/sites/dariosabaghi/2022/02/23/canadas-legalization-of-cannabis-has-contributed-435-billion-to-national-gdp/?sh=58aced0349c2 What drugs do you think we should legalize and sell/tax next? I think psychedelics. LSD, Mushrooms/DMT/etc. Most of these are already decriminalized but not suppose to sell. I think they'd generate a lot of revenue as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 21 hours ago, Nucklehead22 said: Our Canadian justice system is just a revolving door It's more like one of those bead curtains that were popular in the 70s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucklehead22 Posted April 13, 2023 Author Share Posted April 13, 2023 2 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said: It's more like one of those bead curtains that were popular in the 70s. And hasn't been upgraded since. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/12/2023 at 12:14 PM, Ghostsof1915 said: I own long guns. And we don't have castle laws here in Canada. You going to shoot a guy for trespassing or trying to take your garden hose? What we need is subsidized housing, and places where people can be looked after and treated with dignity. If there's a violence problem. We need secure mental hospitals that can take care of people with troubles. The other sad part is the mentally disturbed "self medicating". Problem is we have NIMBY (Not in my backyard) and people complaining we pay too much in taxes already. We need to improve health in general. Not just physical, but mental. It's going to cost dough. Any ideas? More lotteries? The problem with trying to housing everyone is there is literally some people that will refuse to be housed. There was a guy being decamped the other day who said "I am a fire hazard. Anywhere you put me it's going to create a fire hazard". That sounds like a guy that you might actually be able to help. But it might not be at his own will, at least at first. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 4/12/2023 at 11:00 AM, Warhippy said: You can not help people who refuse to accept help or change. Unfortunately the calls to reopen places like Riverview are growing louder and this leads us down a road towards the return of forced institutionalization. For those of you who don't know what that means, it is a simple thing in which people deemed unfit to exist in the real world due to mental health and addiction issues or mental health issues caused by addiction who refuse to go to or accept treatment would be forced in to institutions for around the clock care as they are a danger to themselves and society. Why this is an issue, regardless of how altruistic the motives are is that it inevitably devolves in to abuse and neglect as these people will also fight and refuse treatment in these centres. Staff will grow overworked and callous and eventually the abuse will start, moderate at first then systemic towards the end. Without that intervention, this problem will only grow due to the factors contributing to addiction and mental health. But warehousing people against their will for their own safety is not a solution; it is only hiding the problem. We need a reset from the top down to fix the issues causing this. And those are the people that should be in a place like Riverview. And your probably right, that even with the lessons learned, going back to that might be considered cruel. But is it as cruel as putting them in jail? Letting them battle it out on the street? To let the drug dealers determine the appropriate medication? To force them to subsidize that medication though theft and prostitution? The more you fight and refuse treatment, the more your just going to be locked in a room. The more you decide to get treated, the more likely you can eventually get out, maybe for a day at a time at first, depends on how things progress. And if the reason your in there is because your violent, you should be happy your not in a maximum security prison, and enjoy all it has to offer. Should we have more top down mental health centres and what not for people that think they might have a problem, and want to seek treatment on their own, absolutely! Would I feel guilty warehousing as you put it the ones that don't, that are a threat to themselves and the community, that have no interest in helping themselves? Not as guilty as leaving them in the situation they are in! Not as sad as watching them not only bringing themselves down, but the community, and more importantly, the people that are trying to get help and help themselves up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 22 hours ago, Nucklehead22 said: Year after year health authorities talk about improving the health care system and year after year it declines. And even with a giant cash infusion from the feds that they can't afford, and even with health care taking more and more of the provincial budget, that will continue to be the case, if only because of demographics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 17 hours ago, Sharpshooter said: The political, legal, housing and health components of society all need to work together to find that balance in some sort of common sense solution Without one of those fully on board any solution will be a half measure. Sentencing guideline need to change. Housing needs more spaces. Mental health facilities need expansion and full funding. Politicians have to get more proactive instead of waiting to be reactive. Police need more training to deal with mental health disturbances along with dedicated mental health nurses/personnel to assist them in deescalatory measures. I’m for involuntary institutionalization for some but not all. If it’s their last best option then it’s better than being unsafe out in the streets or making the streets unsafe. I’m also for the restorative criminal justice system, but when it becomes a revolving door and restoration doesn’t seem like a short term solution, then sentencing, bail and probation guidelines need to be redressed. Pay for it all with more revenue vis-a-vis Play Now commercials. Exactly. If you are trending in the direction of trying to help yourself, you can go in the direction of restoration. If you are trending in the direction f**k you I won't do what you tell me, then you go in the direction of institutionalization. What important here is a lot of these people are all together. The ones that want to help themselves and try will be the happiest to get rid of the demons that only want the instant carnal gratification of pleasure now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoff Beered Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 (edited) On 4/12/2023 at 11:00 AM, Warhippy said: Why this is an issue, regardless of how altruistic the motives are is that it inevitably devolves in to abuse and neglect as these people will also fight and refuse treatment in these centres. Staff will grow overworked and callous and eventually the abuse will start, moderate at first then systemic towards the end. A possible solution to this is not having staff that make a career out of working in these environments. If you go into the medical profession you will have to deal with mental health issues so my idea is to require all med students to work in these places for a portion of their internship during their last year, this will limit burnout and give them valuable experience in dealing with mental health. Edited April 14, 2023 by Playoff Beered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoff Beered Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 2 hours ago, ronthecivil said: Exactly. If you are trending in the direction of trying to help yourself, you can go in the direction of restoration. If you are trending in the direction f**k you I won't do what you tell me, then you go in the direction of institutionalization. What important here is a lot of these people are all together. The ones that want to help themselves and try will be the happiest to get rid of the demons that only want the instant carnal gratification of pleasure now. That's how you see mental health patients who refuse help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 13 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said: That's how you see mental health patients who refuse help? It's how I see people that refuse help, are violent, want all kinds of sex and drugs, and will happily prey on others to get what they want. I have run into too many of these people in my own life to have any sympathy for them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 8 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said: What drugs do you think we should legalize and sell/tax next? I think psychedelics. LSD, Mushrooms/DMT/etc. Most of these are already decriminalized but not suppose to sell. I think they'd generate a lot of revenue as well. I am essentially saying anything not made in a back alley meth lab or fat guys bath tub with diesel and sudafed should be allowed. if it can be grown it should be legal. LSD being a bit more subjective but available by presecription. People keep clamouring about "the feds made drugs totally legal now all the meth heads are untouchable" as though somehow they weren't doing the exact same thing a month before. Possession charges literally do nothing to help and if this crap can be sold, monitored and take $ out of the hands of back alley meth labs and street dealers it will eventually have a trickle down. It's a LOT harder in fact almost impossible to make money with a grow op now. Can't buy an 8th from your local buddy or street dealer. Eventually this will happen. It will have a lot of negative publicity but in time it will help and the taxation is never a bad thing from it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucklehead22 Posted April 14, 2023 Author Share Posted April 14, 2023 3 hours ago, ronthecivil said: It's how I see people that refuse help, are violent, want all kinds of sex and drugs, and will happily prey on others to get what they want. I have run into too many of these people in my own life to have any sympathy for them.... Not everyone is like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucklehead22 Posted April 14, 2023 Author Share Posted April 14, 2023 22 hours ago, ronthecivil said: The problem with trying to housing everyone is there is literally some people that will refuse to be housed. There was a guy being decamped the other day who said "I am a fire hazard. Anywhere you put me it's going to create a fire hazard". That sounds like a guy that you might actually be able to help. But it might not be at his own will, at least at first. Then there has to be some kind of separate help for those people. They don't deserve to suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 18 hours ago, Nucklehead22 said: Not everyone is like that. Of course they are not ALL like that. It's the small batch of bad apples that makes the misery and spreads it worse. I have nothing against helping someone that is down on their luck and wants a hand up. I have nothing against the peaceful homeless binner that collect cans during the day and drinks the money away under a bridge at night. Even if this kind of person refuses help, if they aren't bothering anyone else, I don't really care (that they want to do that, it's still a little sad). It's the stabby ones that need to be put away first. It's the thieving ones that need to be put away second. The thieving ones often evolve into stabby ones, since they do what it takes to fill their addiction. The people that want to enroll themselves into drug treatment should be supported. The ones that don't and would just as soon steal and stab to get their way should be locked up. No social program on the planet is going to change their way if left to their own devices. Should we do top down things to stop people from going that way in the first place? Of course. But for ones that are down that path, not much is going to change that. Just cave to them and give them free drugs? I mean, it sort of works in Portugal, but they also have big deterrents for going down that road in the first place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 2 hours ago, Nucklehead22 said: Then there has to be some kind of separate help for those people. They don't deserve to suffer. Neither do the people that are at risk from his fires! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucklehead22 Posted April 14, 2023 Author Share Posted April 14, 2023 55 minutes ago, ronthecivil said: Of course they are not ALL like that. It's the small batch of bad apples that makes the misery and spreads it worse. I have nothing against helping someone that is down on their luck and wants a hand up. I have nothing against the peaceful homeless binner that collect cans during the day and drinks the money away under a bridge at night. Even if this kind of person refuses help, if they aren't bothering anyone else, I don't really care (that they want to do that, it's still a little sad). It's the stabby ones that need to be put away first. It's the thieving ones that need to be put away second. The thieving ones often evolve into stabby ones, since they do what it takes to fill their addiction. The people that want to enroll themselves into drug treatment should be supported. The ones that don't and would just as soon steal and stab to get their way should be locked up. No social program on the planet is going to change their way if left to their own devices. Should we do top down things to stop people from going that way in the first place? Of course. But for ones that are down that path, not much is going to change that. Just cave to them and give them free drugs? I mean, it sort of works in Portugal, but they also have big deterrents for going down that road in the first place. I agree with your points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucklehead22 Posted April 17, 2023 Author Share Posted April 17, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 4:35 PM, Playoff Beered said: That's how you see mental health patients who refuse help? Refusing help has a lot more to do with just "mental health" there are so many intricate reasons behind it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzle Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 On 4/13/2023 at 5:23 PM, Warhippy said: I am essentially saying anything not made in a back alley meth lab or fat guys bath tub with diesel and sudafed should be allowed. if it can be grown it should be legal. LSD being a bit more subjective but available by presecription. People keep clamouring about "the feds made drugs totally legal now all the meth heads are untouchable" as though somehow they weren't doing the exact same thing a month before. Possession charges literally do nothing to help and if this crap can be sold, monitored and take $ out of the hands of back alley meth labs and street dealers it will eventually have a trickle down. It's a LOT harder in fact almost impossible to make money with a grow op now. Can't buy an 8th from your local buddy or street dealer. Eventually this will happen. It will have a lot of negative publicity but in time it will help and the taxation is never a bad thing from it. Fully agreed. We've seen the war on drugs and "tough on crime" approach to this for decades. DECADES. It has not gotten any better though. It's time for a fresh approach. No more criminalizing people for possession. More emphasis on drug addiction being a medical issue. Afterwards, we should move onto prostitution. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 7 minutes ago, Dazzle said: Fully agreed. We've seen the war on drugs and "tough on crime" approach to this for decades. DECADES. It has not gotten any better though. It's time for a fresh approach. No more criminalizing people for possession. More emphasis on drug addiction being a medical issue. Afterwards, we should move onto prostitution. That is just it, isn't it? The RCMP have essentially long ago stopped arresting and hunting people down for simple possession. But it's still happens and it's still a waste of money and still a waste of time. Selling it through government stores where the product and the quality can be measured and controlled. Sounds ridiculous. I agree. But at the same time and sharing that this is not being picked up from the lowest possible life forms in our society that prey on people like this, is only a good thing. Taking money out of their hands can only be beneficial. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoff Beered Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 22 hours ago, Nucklehead22 said: Refusing help has a lot more to do with just "mental health" there are so many intricate reasons behind it I look forward to the article from the Burnaby Bulletin explaining all the intricate reasons people refuse help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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