Jim Bennings legacy without the OEL trade. Grade him out of 10.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

20 minutes ago, CanuckleHorse said:

I think the turd here is the guy typing from his mom and dad’s basement who thinks he knows better than people who got paid big time for the job they done.

I'm actually typing from protective custody at a Federal Prison.  I'm confident enough to think even you would be better than Milbury at the GM's job.

Edited June 12, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[CanuckleHorse]

10 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

I'm actually typing from protective custody at a Federal Prison.  I'm confident enough to think even you would be better than Milbury at the GM's job.

I mean Mike is a good example of a good salesman he had the owner in his back pocket just like Green had Benning in his Green is the guy we should all be pissed at.

[DSVII]

2 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Oh thats cute, you missed the first couple “full time seasons” of Tanev

Movin the goal posts I see.

 

oh hey and by the way Burnie did great for Salo 

 

 

Those quotation marks are right because I never said Full seasons. I may as well call you scarecrow with all the strawman you keep bringing up. And Tanev was far from a full timer, more of a prospect in the years before the final 

 

Let me simply it for you.

 

60-65 games of Tanev > 40-55 games of Tanev. Considering you made a big kerfuffle about missing some years playoffs by 3 games. That is astronomical by your own metric.

 

But then again, the value of 1 win seems to change whenever it suits you.

 

3 wins shy of a playoff berth -> praise Benning

1 win shy of a cup -> Dead in the water, no prospect pool, useless

 

I think we can all agree, the only thing that could have helped Salo was if we gave him the wolverine syrum. Again you brought him up, not me.

 

Quote

So open gates, slew foots, knee on knees, blindside hits to the head, suicide passes that lead to devastating hits are all to blame on Celebrini?

Oh and Mumps is the fault of Celebrini too?

Canucks' Tanev thought he broke jaw prior to mumps diagnosis | theScore.com

Nah, that's the equivalent of you blaming Gillis for not fully stocking a farm while gunning for a cup. 

 

It's the time returning from injury, and the chance of reinjury that also feeds into this. And also a funny coincidence that Tanev started playing at his 60+ game clip once Celebrini jumped ship in the middle of the season to lead the Golden state warriors to their injury riddled finals lost.

 

I wouldn't say one NHL season is particularly more violent than the last one, so if there is a substantial change in it, you question the staff. It is indisputable that the team had above average man games lost and to more key personel under Celebrini than Burnstein.

 

This is just pure man games lost, doesn't take into account weighted cost of the missing person.

 

Quote

Virtanen was ENTIRELY MISHANDLED

18g 18a in 13:05TOI no PP1 time and he then got demoted to 12:15min TOI and 39% oZS compared to 55% the prior.... 16% drop in ozone deployment?!?!?! Its NO WONDER HE STRUGGLED. He always had more takeaways than giveaways every season, he rarely got scored on, threw tons of hits and gets put further and further away from the offensive zone.... WHAT?!??! His career ATOI is 12:45!!!!!! Under 50% oZS!!! 11 minutes ATOI in the playoffs and 7oiGF and 4oiGA I THINK HE WAS ACTUALLY A POSITIVE FACTOR ON THE ICE IN THE PLAYOFFS. Our goalies had a .962sv% when he was on the ice at 5v5

Great and under whose management was his development mishandled?  

Edited June 12, 2023 by DSVII

[DSVII]

34 minutes ago, CanuckleHorse said:

I mean Mike is a good example of a good salesman he had the owner in his back pocket just like Green had Benning in his Green is the guy we should all be pissed at.

Benning did a much better job selling himself when he undercut Linden to the Aquilinis.

[CanuckleHorse]

1 minute ago, DSVII said:

Benning did a much better job selling himself when he undercut Linden to the Aquilinis.

All moves before he so called undercut is on LINDEN if that is the case so we could blame the poor moves at the drat and in signings.

[DSVII]

13 minutes ago, CanuckleHorse said:

All moves before he so called undercut is on LINDEN if that is the case so we could blame the poor moves at the drat and in signings.

Linden bares responsibility for the strategic direction yes. But it wasn't him that signed Sbisa to an extension or Trade 2nds for Vey. Etc..and when he tried to course correct for a slow cooked rebuild. He was let go.

 

Execution was still JB.

 

I'm always intrigued that Benning inspires so much loyalty that supporters easily throw character guys like Linden and the Sedins (for OEL) under the bus for him.

Edited June 12, 2023 by DSVII

[CanuckleHorse]

13 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Linden bares responsibility for the strategic direction yes. But it wasn't him that signed Sbisa to an extension or Trade 2nds for Vey. Etc..and when he tried to course correct for a slow cooked rebuild. He was let go.

 

Execution was still JB.

 

I'm always intrigued that Benning inspires so much loyalty that supporters easily throw character guys like Linden and the Sedins (for OEL) under the bus for him.

Maybe those moves are why they wanted to take away his ability to make more so he left all moves after are on Benning.

Edited June 12, 2023 by CanuckleHorse

[AnthonyG]

1 hour ago, DSVII said:

Those quotation marks are right because I never said Full seasons. I may as well call you scarecrow with all the strawman you keep bringing up. And Tanev was far from a full timer, more of a prospect in the years before the final 

 

Let me simply it for you.

 

60-65 games of Tanev > 40-55 games of Tanev. Considering you made a big kerfuffle about missing some years playoffs by 3 games. That is astronomical by your own metric.

 

But then again, the value of 1 win seems to change whenever it suits you.

 

3 wins shy of a playoff berth -> praise Benning

1 win shy of a cup -> Dead in the water, no prospect pool, useless

 

I think we can all agree, the only thing that could have helped Salo was if we gave him the wolverine syrum. Again you brought him up, not me.

 

Nah, that's the equivalent of you blaming Gillis for not fully stocking a farm while gunning for a cup. 

 

It's the time returning from injury, and the chance of reinjury that also feeds into this. And also a funny coincidence that Tanev started playing at his 60+ game clip once Celebrini jumped ship in the middle of the season to lead the Golden state warriors to their injury riddled finals lost.

 

I wouldn't say one NHL season is particularly more violent than the last one, so if there is a substantial change in it, you question the staff. It is indisputable that the team had above average man games lost and to more key personel under Celebrini than Burnstein.

 

This is just pure man games lost, doesn't take into account weighted cost of the missing person.

 

Great and under whose management was his development mishandled?  

Did I say finals? Or did I say his first “full time” years. Aka 2013 and 2014. He was a full timer. But injury prevented him from playing… “full time”

 

 

Let me re-iterate what I’ve said MANY times to you and others.

I do not blame Mike Gillis for going all in on a Stanley cup, ultimately these are the consequences when you fail to achieve your goal. Especially when you fail to draft anything of significance or develop anyone.

 

lmao move the goal posts on a lost argument some more. Just completely gaslight the fact he is banged up just as much as Tanev. Yet other guys on the roster managed to stay healthier longer than both. One guy its impossible to stay healthy, the other was preventable? Give me a break.

 

 

The complaint was not making playoffs, 3 wins was close and a step in the right direction.
The cost of 3 losses = 15th overall

The cost of 1 loss = the future

Gillis’s 1 loss hurt us so much more than Benning’s 3 extra losses last season. who was absent and our current management group sat by idly and made no changes. We came up 3 wins short and came out with a 15th overall. Your 1 loss was far more devastating, draft capital, figure it out bud 

 

 

Oh so the GM is responsible for coaching as well? He’s supposed to set the lines and systems? Cool good to know JB’s job was even more complicated than I ever knew. Coach GM scout you name it, he apparently had to do it all by himself. So was that Gillis who sat Luongo in the winter classic and ended up with Luongo demanding a trade out?

 

GM is responsible for roster construction, the coach works the lines and systems.

 

Edit: In bold, how tell me you lost an argument without saying so.

Edited June 12, 2023 by AnthonyG

[iinatcc]

Can't we all just agree that Benning was an awful GM so we can have world peace ? Just imagine how much meat and potatoes will we make for those North American hearts 

Edited June 12, 2023 by iinatcc

[AnthonyG]

22 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

heh, no bargaining chips....let a goalie walk for nothing that was *SECOND* in Vezina votes the 2nd year he was off the team.  

Hows that Vezina finalist been lookin for CGY? Missed playoffs twice in the last 3 years and got ABSOLUTELY lit up in the playoffs last year and alllllll year this year.

than god we didnt offer him 6mil
PS there was a cap freeze. DERP. Plus Demko, Hughes and Petterssons RFA negotiations coming up, you really want to risk 6 mil in a flat cap for 3 years when you have NO IDEA what they could be asking for. 
Brilliant.

[Fred65]

3 hours ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

I swear the cacophony that Canucks fans manage to make around our players and management gets around the league and rubs off on everyone.

 

Boeser or Garlund isn't tradeable because of canucks fans. Benning or Green doesn't get another job bc of Canucks fans. 

You can't be serious. No professional GM refers to the Vcr fans before they make a move, none, zero, zilch. Why would they spend thousands on scout if all thy need is access the the Canucks forum, think about it

[DSVII]

58 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Did I say finals? Or did I say his first “full time” years. Aka 2013 and 2014. He was a full timer. But injury prevented him from playing… “full time”

And guess what, 60+ games is still better than 40-50.

 

Quote

 

Let me re-iterate what I’ve said MANY times to you and others.

I do not blame Mike Gillis for going all in on a Stanley cup, ultimately these are the consequences when you fail to achieve your goal. Especially when you fail to draft anything of significance or develop anyone.

That's really not the impression you're portraying here. You've spent entire threads saying that Gillis ran the team into the ground and didn't stock the farm and that he left Benning with nothing.

 

You do realize by virtue of picking in the late 20s and trading picks away to make those cup runs that you don't blame him for, the chances of him stocking the farm are probably in the bottom range of outcomes when compared to his peers?

 

Because if you truly weren't blaming him for going all in on the cup, and you're looking at the effect those weaker draft positions had on the team Benning inherited, you would be taking that into account rather than calling him 'Gilass'. (cringe by the way, same way I cringe whenever i read 'Benning Bros')

 

There are consequences, yes, and here's what I've been telling you many times. Gillis was fired before he could even do anything, and what he did do in the time he had left, Benning rode into the ground (Markstrom, Bo, Tanev)

 

So why are you slagging him for not leaving Benning anything when he didn't have a chance to? (even though I vehemently disagree, he left Benning with plenty.)

 

Quote

lmao move the goal posts on a lost argument some more. Just completely gaslight the fact he is banged up just as much as Tanev. Yet other guys on the roster managed to stay healthier longer than both. One guy its impossible to stay healthy, the other was preventable? Give me a break.

HAHA well for one thing, this is completely unrelated to Celebrini, Salo wasn't even here when Benning started. So this is a strawman. Because that's all you claim to win on. 

 

Guess what though, even with Salo and Tanev on the roster at once, Burnie came up with lower man games lost average than Celebrini, in both games lost and $ of cap hit man games lost.

 

If Salo had Celebrini, i fear for his life.

 

Again, you cry 'gaslight', but it's really a straw man argument from you.

 

Quote

 

The complaint was not making playoffs, 3 wins was close and a step in the right direction.
The cost of 3 losses = 15th overall

The cost of 1 loss = the future

Gillis’s 1 loss hurt us so much more than Benning’s 3 extra losses last season. who was absent and our current management group sat by idly and made no changes.

I think highlighting this 'argument' for all to see is enough to refute the utter inanity of it. 

 

The 1 loss from Gillis did hurt, but really because it broke Frankie's poor brain and made Gillis hire Torts and go for the Bruins build style.

 

As for last season, have you also considered the management group sat by idly, because Benning's contracts sucked and couldn't be moved? Or that they wanted a chance to evaluate this roster?

 

Quote

We came up 3 wins short and came out with a 15th overall. Your 1 loss was far more devastating, draft capital, figure it out bud 

You kinda just threw in draft capital like it means anything there? Because from a draft capital perspective, 30th->29th isn't much movement.

 

Quote

 

Oh so the GM is responsible for coaching as well? He’s supposed to set the lines and systems?. Coach GM scout you name it, he apparently had to do it all by himself. So was that Gillis who sat Luongo in the winter classic and ended up with Luongo demanding a trade out?

 

GM is responsible for roster construction, the coach works the lines and systems.

 

He's responsible for assigning players to the NHL or AHL and working with the coach to set him up to succeed. 

 

How many games in Utica did he play before making it to the big show? 

 

Quote

Edit: In bold, how tell me you lost an argument without saying so.

I lost an imaginary argument you conjured up in your own mind. That's really all you have. 

 

 

Quote

Cool good to know JB’s job was even more complicated than I ever knew

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by DSVII

[NewbieCanuckFan]

9 minutes ago, DSVII said:

I lost an imaginary argument you conjured up in your own mind. That's really all you have. 

I *NEVER* lose an argument arguing with myself.

 

*YES YOU DID!*

 

No I didn't!

 

*YES YOU DID!*

 

[Fred65]

Consequence is not a popular concept in todays world and that incudes hockey. Put it doown to cancel culture  There has never been so many post game quarterback than we have to day IMO. 

 

LMAO

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Fred65

[unknown33429]

6 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Given the fact we didn't make the playoffs 5/7 years Benning was in charge, you've named 9 draftees who have made the NHL - I would include Podkolzin in there.  So after 7 years, you only have nine NHL-level players?  Only seven if you take out Podkolzin/Hoglander, who are still not major leaguers.

You missed the point. I was trying to name players that exceeded their draft expectation, at least before joining the Canucks.

 

Maybe McCann and Demko should be taken out as McCann falling to us was a fluke and Demko was the highest rated goalie.

 

I don't remember the last time we had three Calder finalists. 

 

So Benning was a decent scout and perhaps he should've stuck to that. Overall, the results speak for themselves.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

10 minutes ago, unknown33429 said:

You missed the point. I was trying to name players that exceeded their draft expectation, at least before joining the Canucks.

 

Maybe McCann and Demko should be taken out as McCann falling to us was a fluke and Demko was the highest rated goalie.

 

I don't remember the last time we had three Calder finalists. 

 

So Benning was a decent scout and perhaps he should've stuck to that. Overall, the results speak for themselves.

Sam Presti had drafted THREE future NBA MVPs forget "rookie of the year" (though one of those three MVPs was rookie of the year) in a time of the superstar Lebron James but still hasn't won an NBA championship.  A sport where one individual probably has a greater influence on the outcome of a game given the significantly smaller roster sizes of both sports.

Edited June 13, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[alt kilgore]

8 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

How do you play a bad hand good? Explain please. Its a bad hand for a reason.

The main reason this has taken us “so long” is literally because of Gillis and Nonis. Both of their inability to draft and develop along with selling picks off and going all in on a cup is literally the aftermath. The time it takes to recoup and rebuild is far longer. Especially when you have so few options to work with and very limited trade chips mostly lower quality

 

You were referring to how Benning could have approached his "bad hand" dealt by Gillis.

Putting aside for a minute the fact that we were in the SCF, one win away from the Cup with Gillis. Two Presidents trophies. And if we'd actually won game 6 or 7 you'd no doubt be on the Gillis bandwagon along with the whole city. And on CDC we'd still be going through the fine points of his brilliant moves to add the right depth players, and resigning valuable veterans to team friendly contracts.

 

A very simple answer to your question though on how Benning should have played his "bad hand".

 

Keep your picks.

 

If things are that dire, as you believe they were, then the only avenue  is a rebuild isn't it? Are you arguing that the Benning/Aqua dream of "turning this team around quickly"  was the wisest approach.....even in hindsight?  If thats  true, wow

 

You don't trade away picks in Forsling and McCann in your first year. And so many other draft picks during his tenure. Including 3 first rounders if you include McCann. And a lot of second rounders.  You start a rebuilt as Gillis realized was necessary. You keep ALL your draft picks. You trade the veterans with value that don't have a NTC/NMC for MORE draft picks or young prospects. Then work on convincing some of those that do have NTCs.  You at least try.

 

If  the hand dealt him was truly that terrible, wasn't the only solution that we needed to restock and start over?  How do you defend Benning deluding himself for so long that Gillis actually left him a good enough hand that he didn't need to rebuild? Please explain that.

[unknown33429]

13 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Sam Presti had drafted THREE future NBA MVPs forget "rookie of the year" (though one of those three MVPs was rookie of the year) in a time of the superstar Lebron James but still hasn't won an NBA championship.  A sport where one individual probably has a greater influence on the outcome of a game given the significantly smaller roster sizes of both sports.

I don't follow basketball so I'll take your word for it.

 

Were those picks near or top overall? You can't give an Edmonton GM credit for drafting McDavid.

[MaxVerstappen33]

9 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Hughes was also 7th overall so it wasn't like a ton of teams that passed on him.  

 

.

How many actually did .. I don't remember 

[MaxVerstappen33]

27 minutes ago, unknown33429 said:

You missed the point. I was trying to name players that exceeded their draft expectation, at least before joining the Canucks.

 

Maybe McCann and Demko should be taken out as McCann falling to us was a fluke and Demko was the highest rated goalie.

 

I don't remember the last time we had three Calder finalists. 

 

So Benning was a decent scout and perhaps he should've stuck to that. Overall, the results speak for themselves.

The sad thing is , if he was granted a 3-5 year window for a plan , he might have been able to build a cup team