Who is your All-American Team? (can it beat Canada?)

[shiznak]

4 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

This is an incredibly weak response.  You have absolutely nothing substantive to say, so you're just making excuses now.

 

The importance of the player....?  You are desperately grasping at straws here, man.  Just look at the teams I constructed in my opening post.  American players are extremely talented.  In terms of pure skill, they have just as much talent as the Canadian superstars.  The USA has a larger population?  What kind of argument is that?  You are acting as though suddenly the United States became a bigger country than Canada.  Why should it matter where someone's parents are from?  Brett Hull is one of USA's best players of all time.  

 

Just accept it, man.  The United States is quickly becoming a powerhouse in men's hockey and will likely overtake Canada in both quantity and quality, probably within a decade.

 

Note how Connor Bedard played in the CHL but Adam Fantilli did not.  Why is that?  Why did a Canadian player (a phenomenal kid) opt to develop his game in the United States?  I'm sure if you tried to tell Makar all his skills were learnt in Junior A and not college, he'd just ignore you.

 

Try to approach this with an open mind.  Instead of dismissing the numbers and trends, try to understand why more and more hockey players (both Canadian and American) are choosing the US development system over the CHL.  Try to understand what USA Hockey has done much better than Hockey Canada.  Get over this uber-Canadian patriotism.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/torontosun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/more-canadians-taking-ncaa-route-to-the-nhl/wcm/e3c639e1-8986-4bd0-a9f1-4b67a0026eb7/amp/

Quality over quantity.

 

That was actually a great excuse, because you’re saying the US program is developing more stars, which is true, but how many  of them are quality players for their club? I would say only 40% of college players actually make it into the NHL.

 

It all comes down to depth amongst the countries. While your USA A-team looks great. How many competitive American teams can you iced compared to the Canada? For example, Barzal could easily make USA’s first squad but barely makes Canada’s A team. 
 

The popularity of hockey has grown in the US over the years, that’s why you see more and more US players in the league, but that doesn’t mean they’re quality players. 
 

I also want to point out currently two of the best American players started their development in the CHL.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

19 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Quality over quantity.

 

That was actually a great excuse, because you’re saying the US program is developing more stars, which is true, but how many  of them are quality players for their club? I would say only 40% of college players actually make it into the NHL.

 

It all comes down to depth amongst the countries. While your USA A-team looks great. How many competitive American teams can you iced compared to the Canada? For example, Barzal could easily make USA’s first squad but barely makes Canada’s A team. 
 

The popularity of hockey has grown in the US over the years, that’s why you see more and more US players in the league, but that doesn’t mean they’re quality players. 
 

I also want to point out currently two of the best American players started their development in the CHL.

So which one is it?  Does Canada have better quality or quantity?

 

Two posts ago you were bragging about how Canada has way more players and way more points than the US.  Now that I point out the sheer volume of players coming out of the US system (this also includes notable Canadians), you've backtracked to the argument that Canada produces better players.  I've already presented you with two fully loaded team USAs where team A could easily contend for the gold medal and team B could easily be cup favourites.  Why would I waste time trying to construct a team C?  If you want quantity, then the charts I showed you prove the growing trend of American players.  If you want quality, then my team A is literally filled with award-winning players from top to bottom, to the point where I literally had to demote the current Calder winner to team B.  

 

I'm not even trying to argue that American hockey is superior.  I'm just showing how your notion that "Canada will always be #1" is silly and ignorant of what's been happening over the past decade.  You want to talk about Canada?  Try to come up with a reason why we've failed to develop any Vezina goalies over the past 10 years.  Dozens of articles have been written about this issue.  It's a legitimate problem that boils down to the way coaching/training is conducted in Canada.

[shiznak]

27 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

So which one is it?  Does Canada have better quality or quantity?

 

Two posts ago you were bragging about how Canada has way more players and way more points than the US.  Now that I point out the sheer volume of players coming out of the US system (this also includes notable Canadians), you've backtracked to the argument that Canada produces better players.  I've already presented you with two fully loaded team USAs where team A could easily contend for the gold medal and team B could easily be cup favourites.  Why would I waste time trying to construct a team C?  If you want quantity, then the charts I showed you prove the growing trend of American players.  If you want quality, then my team A is literally filled with award-winning players from top to bottom, to the point where I literally had to demote the current Calder winner to team B.  

 

I'm not even trying to argue that American hockey is superior.  I'm just showing how your notion that "Canada will always be #1" is silly and ignorant of what's been happening over the past decade.  You want to talk about Canada?  Try to come up with a reason why we've failed to develop any Vezina goalies over the past 10 years.  Dozens of articles have been written about this issue.  It's a legitimate problem that boils down to the way coaching/training is conducted in Canada.

Canada has both, while the US only has the quality.

I think you’re really pushing it if you think that secondary squad can be Cup favourites. The fact that you don’t want to waste your time making a third squad proves that the USA has little depth when it comes to producing NHL players. But here I’ll do it for you.

 

Spoiler

Schmaltz - Wheeler - Kane/Pacrioretty (not sure why you missed Kane, he’s probably on your secondary squad)

Oshie - Trocheck - Caufield (same with Trocheck and Caufield)

Parise - Copp - Compher

Iafallo - Mittelstadt - Boeser (Boeser and Mittlestadt should also make their second team)

 

Fowler - Suter

Martinez - Trouba (ditto with these two)

Pionk - Gostisbehere

 

Gibson

Campbell

 

 

 

 

Now, for argument sake take a look at Canada’s B and C squad.

Spoiler

Second team:

Huberdeau - RNH - Reinhart

Hyman - Giroux - Barzal 
PLD - Couturier - Konecny

Benn - Horvat - Toffoli

Reilly - Weegar

Morrissey - Burns
Dunn - Letang

 

Binnginton

Montembeault

 

Third team:

Skinner - Suzuki - Kadri

Kyrou - Thomas - Cozens

Seguin - Schenn - Batherson

Johnston - Mercer - Smith

 

Girardi - Sprugeon

Montour - Severson

Powers - Parayko

Hill

Thompson

 

 

 

 

 

[Gurn]

40 minutes ago, shiznak said:

. The fact that you don’t want to waste your time making a third squad proves that the USA has little depth when it comes to producing NHL players.

https://thehockeywriters.com/current-nhl-players-by-country/

Canada – 294 (41.4%)

United States – 202 (28.4%)   

Sweden – 67 (9.4%)

Russia – 40 (5.6%)

Finland – 33 (4.6%)

Czech Republic – 30 (4.2%)

Switzerland – 9 (1.3%)

Slovakia – 8 (1.1%)

Germany – 7 (1.0%)

 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

12 hours ago, shiznak said:

Canada has both, while the US only has the quality.

I think you’re really pushing it if you think that secondary squad can be Cup favourites. The fact that you don’t want to waste your time making a third squad proves that the USA has little depth when it comes to producing NHL players. But here I’ll do it for you.

 

  Hide contents

Schmaltz - Wheeler - Kane/Pacrioretty (not sure why you missed Kane, he’s probably on your secondary squad)

Oshie - Trocheck - Caufield (same with Trocheck and Caufield)

Parise - Copp - Compher

Iafallo - Mittelstadt - Boeser (Boeser and Mittlestadt should also make their second team)

 

Fowler - Suter

Martinez - Trouba (ditto with these two)

Pionk - Gostisbehere

 

Gibson

Campbell

 

Now, for argument sake take a look at Canada’s B and C squad.

  Hide contents

Second team:

Huberdeau - RNH - Reinhart

Hyman - Giroux - Barzal 
PLD - Couturier - Konecny

Benn - Horvat - Toffoli

Reilly - Weegar

Morrissey - Burns
Dunn - Letang

 

Binnginton

Montembeault

 

Third team:

Skinner - Suzuki - Kadri

Kyrou - Thomas - Cozens

Seguin - Schenn - Batherson

Johnston - Mercer - Smith

 

Girardi - Sprugeon

Montour - Severson

Powers - Parayko

Hill

Thompson

 

Me not bothering to construct teams is because I think you're a very poor debater.  You have done a complete 180 since the beginning, where you have professed that Canada would always be #1.  And when I called you out on it, you pulled up pointless stats like how there are more Canadians in the NHL.  No shit.  You still haven't given a single substantive response to massive growth of American players in the past 15 years.  Then you tried to suggest it was a matter of quality - that all these Americans are no good and the USA Hockey system doesn't work.  And now you're back to arguing the opposite - that USA has great players but less quanity than Canada.  You just go in circles and circles...

 

Just admit that you weren't ready for this.  You didn't do your homework on demographics changes in the NHL, you didn't do your homework on the increased viability of non-CHL development tracks (their pros/cons), and you didn't do your homework on development programs from each country.  Rather than taking these things on with an open mind, you just come off as extremely ignorant.  "Makar didn't learn anything in college" - wtf is that?

[shiznak]

1 hour ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Me not bothering to construct teams is because I think you're a very poor debater.  You have done a complete 180 since the beginning, where you have professed that Canada would always be #1.  And when I called you out on it, you pulled up pointless stats like how there are more Canadians in the NHL.  No shit.  You still haven't given a single substantive response to massive growth of American players in the past 15 years.  Then you tried to suggest it was a matter of quality - that all these Americans are no good and the USA Hockey system doesn't work.  And now you're back to arguing the opposite - that USA has great players but less quanity than Canada.  You just go in circles and circles...

 

Just admit that you weren't ready for this.  You didn't do your homework on demographics changes in the NHL, you didn't do your homework on the increased viability of non-CHL development tracks (their pros/cons), and you didn't do your homework on development programs from each country.  Rather than taking these things on with an open mind, you just come off as extremely ignorant.  "Makar didn't learn anything in college" - wtf is that?

I actually did give a reason why there’s a massive growth in US players. It’s because of the population. Then you proceed to say “well, duh” the US has more people than Canada. The fact is despite the growth of hockey in the USA over the last decade, they still produce the same of amount of talent/quality of players 10, 15, 20 years ago. Talent wise, nothing has changed. Growth of hockey down in the States + bigger population = More players in the league. Go figure.
 

It’s not like we haven’t heard this story before; 17 years ago, when we didn’t medal in the Olympics, people were saying other countries have finally caught up to Canadian hockey. We then won 5 straight World Juniors tournament. 13 years ago, when the US beat us in a round robin game at the Olympics, the same story. “The US will overtake Canada sooner rather than later.”. The next Olympics, they didn’t even medal and Canada absolutely dominated that Olympics. Same with the World Cup of Hockey. It’s seem like every time Canada gets upset in a tournament. You’ll hear, “this is the start of the downfall of Hockey Canada” and yet, it hasn’t happened. 
 

It’s the same story in the NBA. More and more foreign players are coming over getting drafted in the NBA. While the last 3 NBA MVPs are from foreign countries, but overall the USA produced better quality and quantity of players in the league, because of its popularity since the beginning of time. That is what hockey is to Canada. The popularity of the sport in Canada is the reason why Canada will always be the number one nation. Not many young Americans, dream of playing hockey, while there are other options.
 

Btw, I never say Makar didn’t learn anything from playing college. Do you think he went to college as a raw hockey prospect not knowing anything about the game? He went there to further his development from Junior A, but all his tools was from development in the AJHL. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by shiznak

[IBatch]

On 8/21/2023 at 7:01 PM, Gurn said:

https://thehockeywriters.com/current-nhl-players-by-country/

Canada – 294 (41.4%)

United States – 202 (28.4%)   

Sweden – 67 (9.4%)

Russia – 40 (5.6%)

Finland – 33 (4.6%)

Czech Republic – 30 (4.2%)

Switzerland – 9 (1.3%)

Slovakia – 8 (1.1%)

Germany – 7 (1.0%)

 

Russia would possibly supplant the US even now, if the KHL didn't exist.   That said it's pretty impressive that a place like ours, is the super power.    It's possible the US will surpass us.   And the source or villain in the story will be traced to Gretzky.   (Miracle on ice helped for sure too...1996 anyone - even with the Brett Hull factor...) But I seriously doubt, that Canadian style hockey, will ever not win cups.    Eventually maybe ... when they decide to make what is regular season whistle rules, into the playoffs.   That's when Canada becomes a footnote.   Like the Habs have been the last 30 or so years. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by IBatch

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

On 8/22/2023 at 4:47 AM, shiznak said:

I actually did give a reason why there’s a massive growth in US players. It’s because of the population. Then you proceed to say “well, duh” the US has more people than Canada. The fact is despite the growth of hockey in the USA over the last decade, they still produce the same of amount of talent/quality of players 10, 15, 20 years ago. Talent wise, nothing has changed. Growth of hockey down in the States + bigger population = More players in the league. Go figure.
 

It’s not like we haven’t heard this story before; 17 years ago, when we didn’t medal in the Olympics, people were saying other countries have finally caught up to Canadian hockey. We then won 5 straight World Juniors tournament. 13 years ago, when the US beat us in a round robin game at the Olympics, the same story. “The US will overtake Canada sooner rather than later.”. The next Olympics, they didn’t even medal and Canada absolutely dominated that Olympics. Same with the World Cup of Hockey. It’s seem like every time Canada gets upset in a tournament. You’ll hear, “this is the start of the downfall of Hockey Canada” and yet, it hasn’t happened. 
 

It’s the same story in the NBA. More and more foreign players are coming over getting drafted in the NBA. While the last 3 NBA MVPs are from foreign countries, but overall the USA produced better quality and quantity of players in the league, because of its popularity since the beginning of time. That is what hockey is to Canada. The popularity of the sport in Canada is the reason why Canada will always be the number one nation. Not many young Americans, dream of playing hockey, while there are other options.
 

Btw, I never say Makar didn’t learn anything from playing college. Do you think he went to college as a raw hockey prospect not knowing anything about the game? He went there to further his development from Junior A, but all his tools was from development in the AJHL. 

Bit of a necropost (two whole days!) but I feel like this needs to be addressed.  The only way to do this is to boil your arguments down one by one.  It's a mess.

 

Quote

I actually did give a reason why there’s a massive growth in US players. It’s because of the population. Then you proceed to say “well, duh” the US has more people than Canada. The fact is despite the growth of hockey in the USA over the last decade, they still produce the same of amount of talent/quality of players 10, 15, 20 years ago. Talent wise, nothing has changed. Growth of hockey down in the States + bigger population = More players in the league. Go figure.

Using the larger American population to explain the growth in US players makes literally zero sense.  The United States, since the inception of Canada and the invention of ice hockey, has always had a 10:1 difference in population over us.  Always.  The fact that there are around 285 million more Americans than there are Canadians hasn't meant anything when it comes to hockey talent... until very recently.  

 

Talent-wise, everything has changed.  It's insane that you'd even think the level of talent coming out of the United States is the same as it was 15 years ago.  What a joke.  Do you want to know what the American blueline looked like back in the 2010 Olympics?  Jack Johnson, Erik Johnson, Tim Gleason, Ryan Whitney, Ryan Suter, Brooks Orpik, and Brian Rafalski.  Suter and Rafalski had fantastic careers but the rest would've never made a Canadian roster.  Now look at the current top six D: Hughes, Fox, Slavin, McAvoy, Werenski, Carlson.  There's already two Norris winners on this team.  The forwards are stacked with Hart/Rocket/Art Ross winners and nominees. 

 

Remember - you tried to point out that there were more Canadians than Americans in the NHL, with significantly more career points.  You tried to use that as some example of Canadian supremacy in hockey.  That completely ignored the insane growth of hockey in the United States, which you simply cannot deny.  Take a look at the rest of the 2010 squad and tell me the talent hasn't gone up.  And don't even try to flip back to the population argument.  The US being bigger than Canada hasn't meant a damn thing for over 100 years and only buffoon would ignore the vast efforts made by USA Hockey to improve development programs across the country.

 

Quote

It’s not like we haven’t heard this story before; 17 years ago, when we didn’t medal in the Olympics, people were saying other countries have finally caught up to Canadian hockey. We then won 5 straight World Juniors tournament. 13 years ago, when the US beat us in a round robin game at the Olympics, the same story. “The US will overtake Canada sooner rather than later.”. The next Olympics, they didn’t even medal and Canada absolutely dominated that Olympics. Same with the World Cup of Hockey. It’s seem like every time Canada gets upset in a tournament. You’ll hear, “this is the start of the downfall of Hockey Canada” and yet, it hasn’t happened. 

The downfall of Hockey Canada hasn't happened?  Have you completely ignored the myriad of scandals that led to the entire board of Hockey Canada resigning in disgrace?  Can you name even five sponsors still supporting them?  Hockey Canada is practically a dead organization right now, rotten to the core, abandoned by all sponsors and all provincial hockey bodies.  You really don't think that's going to have any consequences on the development of hockey here in Canada?

 

Can you tell me what Hockey Canada has done to help grow the sport here in Canada in the last 20 years?  Anything??

 

Quote

It’s the same story in the NBA. More and more foreign players are coming over getting drafted in the NBA. While the last 3 NBA MVPs are from foreign countries, but overall the USA produced better quality and quantity of players in the league, because of its popularity since the beginning of time. That is what hockey is to Canada. The popularity of the sport in Canada is the reason why Canada will always be the number one nation. Not many young Americans, dream of playing hockey, while there are other options.

Unless China decides to get their shit together (hint: they won't), there is no basketball country with enough of a population base to overtake the United States.  With that being said, there has been tons of content and media released on the lackluster system of basketball development in America, versus what goes on in Europe.  Take a look at the top 10 MVP votes this past year:

 

Embiid (Cameroon)

Jokic (Serbia)

Antetokounmpo (Greece)

Tatum (USA)

SGA (Canada)

Mitchell (USA)

Sabonis (Lithuania)

Doncic (Slovenia)

Curry (USA)

Butler (USA)

 

Nobody is trying to say Cameroon will overtake the United States.  Nobody is trying to say Serbia or Greece will overtake the United States.  Canada has a lot of growth potential, but they're not going to overtake the United States.  The countries are too small and foreign talent entering the NBA isn't concentrated to one nation.

 

Contrast that with the NHL.  There is a growth of non-Canadian high-end talent and a large bulk of it is coming straight from the United States.  Sweden has always been up there, but American talent has grown in both quantity and quality.  It's simply undeniable.  It's insane that you're trying to knock on the very development programs that have produced not only a crazy amount of American superstars, but also an underrated amount of Canadian superstars.  Which brings us to your next absurd point...

 

Quote

Btw, I never say Makar didn’t learn anything from playing college. Do you think he went to college as a raw hockey prospect not knowing anything about the game? He went there to further his development from Junior A, but all his tools was from development in the AJHL. 

Stop basing this off your gut (because you're completely wrong) and just listen to what these ex-college players have actually said.

 

Cale Makar: "College has been a big step for me, understanding the work it takes to build your body and build the strength you need to get to the next level.  I think for young players, they need to weigh out both options.  For me, I got a lot of knowledge from college hockey.  I was a smaller guy at the time and I felt I needed a longer development path and more time in the weight room.  It's definitely a balance of a lot of different things but I feel that I picked the right way for myself.  I think for a lot of guys coming in it can be a very beneficial way as well."

 

The CHL is still arguably the best track to the NHL.  But it is no longer a certainty.  There are simply too many superstars coming out from the US NTDP and NCAA.

 

Before you think about replying, do some homework.  Show me hard statements and facts which suggest that Canada is and always will be number one when it comes to both hockey talent and hockey development.  The onus is on you to prove that the United States will never overtake Canada.  Because it's practically a fact now that USA Hockey has completely eclipsed Hockey Canada in every way.

[shiznak]

1 hour ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Bit of a necropost (two whole days!) but I feel like this needs to be addressed.  The only way to do this is to boil your arguments down one by one.  It's a mess.

 

Using the larger American population to explain the growth in US players makes literally zero sense.  The United States, since the inception of Canada and the invention of ice hockey, has always had a 10:1 difference in population over us.  Always.  The fact that there are around 285 million more Americans than there are Canadians hasn't meant anything when it comes to hockey talent... until very recently.  

 

Talent-wise, everything has changed.  It's insane that you'd even think the level of talent coming out of the United States is the same as it was 15 years ago.  What a joke.  Do you want to know what the American blueline looked like back in the 2010 Olympics?  Jack Johnson, Erik Johnson, Tim Gleason, Ryan Whitney, Ryan Suter, Brooks Orpik, and Brian Rafalski.  Suter and Rafalski had fantastic careers but the rest would've never made a Canadian roster.  Now look at the current top six D: Hughes, Fox, Slavin, McAvoy, Werenski, Carlson.  There's already two Norris winners on this team.  The forwards are stacked with Hart/Rocket/Art Ross winners and nominees. 

 

Remember - you tried to point out that there were more Canadians than Americans in the NHL, with significantly more career points.  You tried to use that as some example of Canadian supremacy in hockey.  That completely ignored the insane growth of hockey in the United States, which you simply cannot deny.  Take a look at the rest of the 2010 squad and tell me the talent hasn't gone up.  And don't even try to flip back to the population argument.  The US being bigger than Canada hasn't meant a damn thing for over 100 years and only buffoon would ignore the vast efforts made by USA Hockey to improve development programs across the country.

 

The downfall of Hockey Canada hasn't happened?  Have you completely ignored the myriad of scandals that led to the entire board of Hockey Canada resigning in disgrace?  Can you name even five sponsors still supporting them?  Hockey Canada is practically a dead organization right now, rotten to the core, abandoned by all sponsors and all provincial hockey bodies.  You really don't think that's going to have any consequences on the development of hockey here in Canada?

 

Can you tell me what Hockey Canada has done to help grow the sport here in Canada in the last 20 years?  Anything??

 

Unless China decides to get their shit together (hint: they won't), there is no basketball country with enough of a population base to overtake the United States.  With that being said, there has been tons of content and media released on the lackluster system of basketball development in America, versus what goes on in Europe.  Take a look at the top 10 MVP votes this past year:

 

Embiid (Cameroon)

Jokic (Serbia)

Antetokounmpo (Greece)

Tatum (USA)

SGA (Canada)

Mitchell (USA)

Sabonis (Lithuania)

Doncic (Slovenia)

Curry (USA)

Butler (USA)

 

Nobody is trying to say Cameroon will overtake the United States.  Nobody is trying to say Serbia or Greece will overtake the United States.  Canada has a lot of growth potential, but they're not going to overtake the United States.  The countries are too small and foreign talent entering the NBA isn't concentrated to one nation.

 

Contrast that with the NHL.  There is a growth of non-Canadian high-end talent and a large bulk of it is coming straight from the United States.  Sweden has always been up there, but American talent has grown in both quantity and quality.  It's simply undeniable.  It's insane that you're trying to knock on the very development programs that have produced not only a crazy amount of American superstars, but also an underrated amount of Canadian superstars.  Which brings us to your next absurd point...

 

Stop basing this off your gut (because you're completely wrong) and just listen to what these ex-college players have actually said.

 

Cale Makar: "College has been a big step for me, understanding the work it takes to build your body and build the strength you need to get to the next level.  I think for young players, they need to weigh out both options.  For me, I got a lot of knowledge from college hockey.  I was a smaller guy at the time and I felt I needed a longer development path and more time in the weight room.  It's definitely a balance of a lot of different things but I feel that I picked the right way for myself.  I think for a lot of guys coming in it can be a very beneficial way as well."

 

The CHL is still arguably the best track to the NHL.  But it is no longer a certainty.  There are simply too many superstars coming out from the US NTDP and NCAA.

 

Before you think about replying, do some homework.  Show me hard statements and facts which suggest that Canada is and always will be number one when it comes to both hockey talent and hockey development.  The onus is on you to prove that the United States will never overtake Canada.  Because it's practically a fact now that USA Hockey has completely eclipsed Hockey Canada in every way.

Man, did you just ignore the whole “growth of hockey down in the States” part? Growth of hockey down in the States + bigger population = More players in the league. Go figure.

https://www.canlansports.com/news/is-hockey-actually-on-the-decline-heres-the-truth/#:~:text=According to USA Hockey%2C the,to over 550%2C000 in 2019.

Quote

According to USA Hockey, the governing body for amateur hockey in the United States, registered players have grown from approximately 400,000 in 2010 to over 550,000 in 2019.

Quote

Participation in USA hockey has increased by 20% in the past decade, which has helped to keep the sport growing. According to the IIHF, Canada still has the highest participation rates in hockey. 

Back then, you would only see players coming from Minnesota, Michigan, North Dakota, and parts of New York. Now you see players coming from Illinois, Florida, California. Arguably, three of the biggest populations in the States.

 

Talent wise everything has changed? Jack and Erik were top three picks in the drafts, while having respectable careers, they didn’t really pan out. But wait, where did they develop? 27 years ago, two Americans won back-to-back Norris trophies, while Kane unanimously won the Hart over Crosby. Talent increased due to more and more Americans in the league. Really has nothing to do with the US developmental program.  Just look at how many of the current top American players spent time in Canada for their development. All Hughes Brothers, Matthew Tkachuk, John Carlson, Jason Robertson, etc.

So, Makar took the college route over the CHL to strengthen his body in preparation for the NHL? Pretty much what I’ve been saying, to get an education and to play against men. But did he really develop any of his skills in college? His skating/footwork, and offensive acumen were already top notch, before he even went to college. I also want to say most, if not all, Junior A level players opt to go the college route.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by shiznak

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

23 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Man, did you just ignore the whole “growth of hockey down in the States” part? Growth of hockey down in the States + bigger population = More players in the league. Go figure.

https://www.canlansports.com/news/is-hockey-actually-on-the-decline-heres-the-truth/#:~:text=According to USA Hockey%2C the,to over 550%2C000 in 2019.

Back then, you would only see players coming from Minnesota, Michigan, North Dakota, and parts of New York. Now you see players coming from Illinois, Florida, California. Arguably, three of the biggest populations in the States.

 

Talent wise everything has changed? Jack and Erik were top three picks in the drafts, while having respectable careers, they didn’t really pan out. But wait, where did they develop? 27 years ago, two Americans won back-to-back Norris trophies, while Kane unanimously won the Hart over Crosby. Talent increased due to more and more Americans in the league. Really has nothing to do with the US developmental program.  Just look at how many of the current top American players spent time in Canada for their development. All Hughes Brothers, Matthew Tkachuk, John Carlson, Jason Robertson, etc.

So, Makar took the college route over the CHL to strengthen his body in preparation for the NHL? Pretty much what I’ve been saying, to get an education and to play against men. But did he really develop any of his skills in college? His skating/footwork, and offensive acumen were already top notch, before he even went to college.

Shiznak logic: Hughes, Tkachuk, Carlson play one year in Canada?  Canadian hockey supremacy, baby.

Also Shiznak logic: Makar, Toews, Toews spend multiple years in United States?  All that talent came from Canadian junior leagues - doesn't count!

 

Your comments about Makar literally go against what he and his father (who has spoken extensively about this stuff) are saying.  When both the player and his father attribute those two years to developing their game, maybe you should respect that development path...?  By the way, I'm pretty sure Quinn/Jack played in Toronto because his dad was working for the Maple Leafs.  Once they turned 16, both bolted off to the USHL and developed there.  That's why Luke never played midget in Toronto.

If American kids choose to play in the CHL, that's an entirely valid option.  It is the best junior league in the world - I'm not trying to dispute that.  That doesn't necessarily make it the best development league in the world.  That's why there's always a choice for both American and Canadian athletes to go the college route.  And because the college route has become increasingly more competitive, the players coming out of college are a lot better.

Your comment about American players coming out of other cities has already been mentioned by me.  I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here.  You're basically saying that hockey has exploded in popularity across the entire United States.  Do you know why?  Because USA Hockey is a vastly superior program that put money and effort into growing the sport across the entire United States!  And now that these kids are getting drafted, there are more and more talented Americans flooding the NHL.

 

You just keep showing me examples of how American hockey has grown and diversified over the past ten years.  Meanwhile, here is a chart showing the "growth" of Canadian hockey in the same time period:  *disregard the COVID years of course*

 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/282125/number-of-registered-ice-hockey-players-in-canada/

 

I'm honestly not sure what to make of this chart.  It seems like there was a massive drop in registered players after 2015.  As whole, this doesn't really show growth at all - it shows stagnation.  And with the rise in popularity of other, cheaper sports (ie. soccer, basketball), I suspect the percentage of Canadian registered players will drop more, even after the COVID skew.

 

By the way, do you really have nothing to say about the state of Hockey Canada?  You simply don't know what you're talking about.  You seem to lack the ability to critically think and build up coherent arguments.  It's like swiss cheese up here.

[shiznak]

12 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Shiznak logic: Hughes, Tkachuk, Carlson play one year in Canada?  Canadian hockey supremacy, baby.

Also Shiznak logic: Makar, Toews, Toews spend multiple years in United States?  All that talent came from Canadian junior leagues - doesn't count!

 

Your comments about Makar literally go against what he and his father (who has spoken extensively about this stuff) are saying.  When both the player and his father attribute those two years to developing their game, maybe you should respect that development path...?  By the way, I'm pretty sure Quinn/Jack played in Toronto because his dad was working for the Maple Leafs.  Once they turned 16, both bolted off to the USHL and developed there.  That's why Luke never played midget in Toronto.

If American kids choose to play in the CHL, that's an entirely valid option.  It is the best junior league in the world - I'm not trying to dispute that.  That doesn't necessarily make it the best development league in the world.  That's why there's always a choice for both American and Canadian athletes to go the college route.  And because the college route has become increasingly more competitive, the players coming out of college are a lot better.

Your comment about American players coming out of other cities has already been mentioned by me.  I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here.  You're basically saying that hockey has exploded in popularity across the entire United States.  Do you know why?  Because USA Hockey is a vastly superior program that put money and effort into growing the sport across the entire United States!  And now that these kids are getting drafted, there are more and more talented Americans flooding the NHL.

 

You just keep showing me examples of how American hockey has grown and diversified over the past ten years.  Meanwhile, here is a chart showing the "growth" of Canadian hockey in the same time period:  *disregard the COVID years of course*

 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/282125/number-of-registered-ice-hockey-players-in-canada/

 

I'm honestly not sure what to make of this chart.  It seems like there was a massive drop in registered players after 2015.  As whole, this doesn't really show growth at all - it shows stagnation.  And with the rise in popularity of other, cheaper sports (ie. soccer, basketball), I suspect the percentage of Canadian registered players will drop more, even after the COVID skew.

 

By the way, do you really have nothing to say about the state of Hockey Canada?  You simply don't know what you're talking about.  You seem to lack the ability to critically think and build up coherent arguments.  It's like swiss cheese up here.

The key is where they started off their development. While Tkachuk and Carlson didn’t start in Canada. They chose to play in the CHL, when they could have easily went the college route. Keith was actually the one who convinced Matthew to join London, because how well they develop their players. Jack would have been playing in the OHL if he was granted exceptional status. He actually spent more years developing his game in Canada than the States.
 

Again, having more US players/talent in the league over the last decade means absolutely nothing. It’s like asking yourself, who would you rather have someone like Garland or Konency, on your team? The depth/quality in Canadian players is far superior to any other countries. How many legitimate competitive teams can you make amongst US players compare to Canada? One, maybe two? 
 

If you go ask 10 kids in the States, what’s the likelihood of them saying “I want to be a hockey player when I grow up”? You’d be lucky to get two, when there are far better options out there. Out of the major league sports, hockey ranks 5th in the States, barely beating soccer.

 

As far as Hockey Canada, even with the scandal looming over them, they still won back-to-back World Junior.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

17 minutes ago, shiznak said:

The key is where they started off their development. While Tkachuk and Carlson didn’t start in Canada. They chose to play in the CHL, when they could have easily went the college route. Keith was actually the one who convinced Matthew to join London, because how well they develop their players. Jack would have been playing in the OHL if he was granted exceptional status. He actually spent more years developing his game in Canada than the States.
 

Again, having more US players/talent in the league over the last decade means absolutely nothing. It’s like asking yourself, who would you rather have someone like Garland or Konency, on your team? The depth/quality in Canadian players is far superior to any other countries. How many legitimate competitive teams can you make amongst US players compare to Canada? One, maybe two? 
 

If you go ask 10 kids in the States, what’s the likelihood of them saying “I want to be a hockey player when I grow up”? You’d be lucky to get two, when there are far better options out there. Out of the major league sports, hockey ranks 5th in the States, barely beating soccer.

 

As far as Hockey Canada, even with the scandal looming over them, they still won back-to-back World Junior.

It's honestly a waste of time trying to debate with you.  Anyone who honestly thinks Hockey Canada has done a better job developing talent than USA Hockey is pure insanity.

 

The amount of faulty logic you have to use is brutal.  You can look back 10 years from now and ask yourself why there are more Americans than Canadians in the NHL.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Bob.Loblaw

[shiznak]

55 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

It's honestly a waste of time trying to debate with you.  Anyone who honestly thinks Hockey Canada has done a better job developing talent than USA Hockey is pure insanity.

 

The amount of faulty logic you have to use is brutal.  You can look back 10 years from now and ask yourself why there are more Americans than Canadians in the NHL.

Your argument is more players from the US program are getting drafted every year, therefore they’re better at developing. But you choose to ignore only 33% of the players who come from the program only make it into the NHL. And that’s not counting the importance of the player. Sure it’s a big jump from the 20% over the last decade. But it still remains that the CHL still continues to spit out the majority of the players.
 

This draft 86 Canadians were drafted, compare to 50 Americans. 84 of them came from a league within Canada. While 43 came from the US program. And before you say 50 Americans to 86 Canadians isn’t a huge gap. The US always produced around 40-50 Americans each draft year since 2014, when it peaked at 64. Canada actually increased their players in the draft, the last 5 years. 

 

2019: 70

2020: 73

2021: 89

2022: 89

2023: 86

I highly doubt in 10 years there will be more American born player than Canadian, because I’m pretty sure people were saying that 13 years ago. When the US almost beat Canada at the Olympics. Or how about 2010 when they beat us at the World Juniors? Or 2003? Again, no kids in America are dying to become hockey players, when there are other sports available.

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by shiznak

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

1 minute ago, shiznak said:

Your argument is more players from the US program are getting drafted every year, therefore they’re better at developing. But you choose to ignore only 33% of the players who come from the program only make it into the NHL. And that’s not counting the importance of the player. Sure it’s a big jump from the 20% over the last decade. But it still remains that the CHL still continues to spit out the majority of the players.
 

This draft 86 Canadians were drafted, compare to 50 Americans. 84 of them came from a league within Canada. While 43 came from the US program. And before you say 50 Americans to 86 Canadians isn’t a huge gap. The US always produced around 40-50 Americans each draft year since 2014, when it peaked at 64. Canada actually increased their players in the draft, the last 5 years. 

 

2019: 70

2020: 73

2021: 89

2022: 89

2023: 86

Honest question.  Are you actually that deluded to think the 2010 US Olympic team is on par with the squads I laid out in my OP?  Are you actually that dense?

[shiznak]

7 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Honest question.  Are you actually that deluded to think the 2010 US Olympic team is on par with the squads I laid out in my OP?  Are you actually that dense?

Zach Parise - Coming off a 94 and 82 points season

Paul Statsny - Coming off a 74 points season
Patrick Kane - Coming off a 88 points season

Bobby Ryan - 30+ goals scorer

Phill Kessel - 30+ goals scorer

Ryan Kesler - Selke winner

Ryan Callahan - Selke nominee

Tim Thomas - top goalie

Ryan Miller - top 5 goalie

 

It takes a team to win. The current group might be have the talent, but that 2010 team did everything possible to grind out wins.  How many times have we seen Russia, with all the talent in the world, just crumble in international tournaments?

 

 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

29 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Zach Parise - Coming off a 94 and 82 points season

Paul Statsny - Coming off a 74 points season
Patrick Kane - Coming off a 88 points season

Bobby Ryan - 30+ goals scorer

Phill Kessel - 30+ goals scorer

Ryan Kesler - Selke winner

Ryan Callahan - Selke nominee

Tim Thomas - top goalie

Ryan Miller - top 5 goalie

 

It takes a team to win. The current group might be have the talent, but that 2010 team did everything possible to grind out wins.  How many times have we seen Russia, with all the talent in the world, just crumble in international tournaments?

 

 

COM.PARE.

[shiznak]

1 hour ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

COM.PARE.

You can’t compare the two teams, when league scoring in 2010 was at 2.7 goals per game to 3.1 this season. Goalies’ save percentage were also a lot higher then. In 2010 only ONE player broke the 100 plateau compare to 11, this season. I would say Parise, Kane, and Kesler, and maybe Stastny would all be 100+ points player in today’s game.

Edited August 25, 2023 by shiznak

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

5 hours ago, shiznak said:

You can’t compare the two teams, when league scoring in 2010 was at 2.7 goals per game to 3.1 this season. Goalies’ save percentage were also a lot higher then. In 2010 only ONE player broke the 100 plateau compare to 11, this season. I would say Parise, Kane, and Kesler, and maybe Stastny would all be 100+ points player in today’s game.

Of course you can compare.  You literally have your inflation adjuster.  

 

Also, nice way of avoiding the fact that the defence is vastly superior now. 

[EddieVedder]

Usa, as always has a team full of one dimensional players that are overly hyped up by american media to sell the game down south.  The only advantage they have right now might be in goal, and even then, none of their goalies have proven to be able to win when it matters.  Canada destroys them up front and on defense.   Its not even close.