Who is your All-American Team? (can it beat Canada?)

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

That's no cups versus a lot of cups.  Don't think so.   And QHs, know he's our guy, was recently voted behind Seider for 23 and unders as in who is going to be the best D of those group of guys, it's not just about PP points and moving the puck ahead.   Jack Hughes.   Well sure he's good too.   But he's not McDavid or McKinnon or Crosby.   Mathews, he's yet to do anything in the post season.  He's the worst superstar in his generation for doing absolutely nothing when it counts.   Mathews is the Phil Housley of his generation without the excuse of a tiny body. 

 

Edit:  I'm completely biased though.  Screw the US.   And their hockey program.  And well I like Miller, Brock and QHs, when it comes to this stuff, they can all go suck eggs. 

You can't seriously say you'd prefer Hockey Canada over USA Hockey right now?  Do they even have any sponsors left??

 

In any case, your argument about PP points and puck movement goes against Canada.  Adam Fox is firmly the second best D-man in the league, barely behind Cale Makar.  Makar is obviously the better puck-mover and offensive threat, but Fox is the better defender.  

[Elias Pettersson]

35 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

 

I will try.  Stone indeed makes that 4th line something else.

 

 

 

If we were to make the best shutdown line, I think it's Finland.  Hintz - Barkov - Lehkonen would obviously not be 4th line, but nobody would ever score on them.

 

Substitute Phillip Danault with Jordan Staal. I was going to do that but Danault is better offensively. But you could have Staal as your 13th forward. 

[shiznak]

25 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

You can't seriously say you'd prefer Hockey Canada over USA Hockey right now?  Do they even have any sponsors left??

 

In any case, your argument about PP points and puck movement goes against Canada.  Adam Fox is firmly the second best D-man in the league, barely behind Cale Makar.  Makar is obviously the better puck-mover and offensive threat, but Fox is the better defender.  

You’re marching into unknown territories with that defensive group. You don’t exactly know how well they will mesh together. Everyone is good in their own rights, but you don’t know well they are when they don’t have their regular defensive partner with them?

 

At least with the Canada, you have two of the best defensive pairing the last three seasons, who have played together in Toews-Makar/Pelech-Pulock (if they make the team). Then you have Theodore and Pietrangelo, who also have played together before, and recently won a Cup.

 

On the forward side, you have the two best players in the league right now, and the best player of the last two decades, who still going strong. The US might be younger, faster and have the goaltending, but Canada has that winning mentality. I mean, just look at how many Cup winners on Canada compare to the US. 
 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by shiznak

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

20 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Substitute Phillip Danault with Jordan Staal. I was going to do that but Danault is better offensively. But you could have Staal as your 13th forward. 

Staal would be a very solid choice for a pure shutdown veteran.  If we head into that territory I think Noah Cates matches that style, except for the fact that he's much younger.  Cates even got a couple Selke votes this year.  He just needs to be better at faceoffs, of course...

18 minutes ago, shiznak said:

You’re marching into unknown territories with that defensive group. You don’t exactly know how well they will mesh together. Everyone is good in their own rights, but you don’t know well they are when they don’t have their regular defensive partner with them?

 

At least with the Canada, you have two of the best defensive pairing the last three seasons, who have played together in Toews-Makar/Pelech-Pulock (if they make the team). Then you have Theodore and Pietrangelo, who also have played together before, and recently won a Cup.

 

On the forward side, you have the two best players in the league right now, and the best player of the last two decades, who still going strong. The US might be younger, faster and have the goaltending, but Canada has that winning mentality. I mean, just look at how many Cup winners on Canada compare to the US. 

While everything you said rings true (especially with defensive pairing chemistry), I feel as though Canadians have been forced to move the goalposts and shift the argument towards "cup acumen" or the "it factor".  Even 10 years ago, Canada was objectively better.  Faster.  Stronger.  More skilled in every way.  With the tables (arguably) turned against us, we're relying on intangibles.  Of course the Canadians have more cup winners - all the American superstars (Fox, Hughes, Matthews, Tkachuk, Robertson, Thompson, McAvoy) are around 25 years old.  Older players provide leadership in ways that aren't quantifiable, no doubt about it.  But Canada used to be better than USA in more ways that.  Not anymore.

[shiznak]

12 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Staal would be a very solid choice for a pure shutdown veteran.  If we head into that territory I think Noah Cates matches that style, except for the fact that he's much younger.  Cates even got a couple Selke votes this year.  He just needs to be better at faceoffs, of course...

While everything you said rings true (especially with defensive pairing chemistry), I feel as though Canadians have been forced to move the goalposts and shift the argument towards "cup acumen" or the "it factor".  Even 10 years ago, Canada was objectively better.  Faster.  Stronger.  More skilled in every way.  With the tables (arguably) turned against us, we're relying on intangibles.  Of course the Canadians have more cup winners - all the American superstars (Fox, Hughes, Matthews, Tkachuk, Robertson, Thompson, McAvoy) are around 25 years old.  Older players provide leadership in ways that aren't quantifiable, no doubt about it.  But Canada used to be better than USA in more ways that.  Not anymore.

I feel the current US crop is sorta like the Russians in the 2000s onward. They have the skill, speed, talent, and goaltending over the Canadians, but depth/winning mentality wise. Canada always seem to triumph over them. I think that’s why Canada will always be the number one hockey nation in terms of competitive hockey amongst the best. 
 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by shiznak

[Elias Pettersson]

Eichel is your only token Stanley Cup winner on that American team. And he did it with 18 Canadians surrounding him. 
 

Conversely, my All-Canadian team has won a total of 21 Stanley Cups. So the US team would be hard pressed to win any final series with the Canadians. It would never happen. McDavid, MacKinnon, Crosby, Bedard. Too much firepower up front. We are talking two of the 10 greatest players of all time. Plus Makar. The US wouldn’t have a chance really. 

[canuck73_3]

5 hours ago, Sean Monahan said:

Kyle Connor would likely make the American A team, wouldn't he? 10th in goals over the last 3 seasons with Matthews, Kreider, and Robertson being the only Americans ahead of him.

Yep I would swap Connor and Gaudreau. 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

1 hour ago, shiznak said:

I feel the current US crop is sorta like the Russians in the 2000s onward. They have the skill, speed, talent, and goaltending over the Canadians, but depth/winning mentality wise. Canada always seem to triumph over them. I think that’s why Canada will always be the number one hockey nation in terms of competitive hockey amongst the best. 

I must point out that at an organizational level Canada has completely lost its competitive advantage to the United States.  Less and less NHL players are coming out of the CHL and CJHL.  More and more Canadian kids are opting to play within the American NTDP system and/or go the NCAA route.  "Always #1" is the type of arrogance which has led to American players quietly taking over the NHL

 

I must also point out that those Russians from the 2000s eventually won gold in 2018.  Oh, I know, I know... but technically there are young Russian athletes like Kaprizov and Sorokin who have gold medals while their Canadian counterparts do not.

9 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Eichel is your only token Stanley Cup winner on that American team. And he did it with 18 Canadians surrounding him. 
 

Conversely, my All-Canadian team has won a total of 21 Stanley Cups. So the US team would be hard pressed to win any final series with the Canadians. It would never happen. McDavid, MacKinnon, Crosby, Bedard. Too much firepower up front. We are talking two of the 10 greatest players of all time. Plus Makar. The US wouldn’t have a chance really. 

Honestly, do you not see several future HHoF players in that American squad?  Do you not see several future Conn Smythe winners in that American squad?  Obviously if you compare Sid to Jack Hughes, Crosby wipes the floor with experience and accomplishments, and that will make a difference today.  But doesn't it make you worried that the bulk of Canadian superstars are essentially 10 years older than their American counterparts?  For every McDavid/Bedard that emerges from Canada, there are probably five or six franchise players that come from the United States.  The ratio of American talent just keeps going up and up, and with the old 2010/2014 Olympic champions aging out, the US have indeed hit parity with us.  

[Gurn]

4 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

"Always #1"

Is factually untrue.

young folk don't remember the 90's when Canada damn near had a royal commission to discuss what was wrong with Canadian hockey.

From 1988 till 2002 Canada won gold twice, in 14 years at the World Championships

[Elias Pettersson]

13 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

I must point out that at an organizational level Canada has completely lost its competitive advantage to the United States.  Less and less NHL players are coming out of the CHL and CJHL.  More and more Canadian kids are opting to play within the American NTDP system and/or go the NCAA route.  "Always #1" is the type of arrogance which has led to American players quietly taking over the NHL

 

I must also point out that those Russians from the 2000s eventually won gold in 2018.  Oh, I know, I know... but technically there are young Russian athletes like Kaprizov and Sorokin who have gold medals while their Canadian counterparts do not.

Honestly, do you not see several future HHoF players in that American squad?  Do you not see several future Conn Smythe winners in that American squad?  Obviously if you compare Sid to Jack Hughes, Crosby wipes the floor with experience and accomplishments, and that will make a difference today.  But doesn't it make you worried that the bulk of Canadian superstars are essentially 10 years older than their American counterparts?  For every McDavid/Bedard that emerges from Canada, there are probably five or six franchise players that come from the United States.  The ratio of American talent just keeps going up and up, and with the old 2010/2014 Olympic champions aging out, the US have indeed hit parity with us.  

None of the Canadian players on my team are old except for a few. McDavid, MacKinnon, Point, Marner, Verhaeghe, Cirelli, Makar, Toews, Theodore. These are all guys that are in still in the prime of their careers. And most are already Stanley Cup champions. Then you have Bedard. He’s the best 18 year old in the world. And Celebrini is the best 17 year old. 
 

The US programs down south have done a great job in closing the gap. I’ll give you that. The US team is very strong. But they might not even be the 2nd or even 3rd best team in the world. Sweden could probably beat the US as well and even the Russians. It’s not a slam dunk that the US would even get to the finals to play Canada in a world tournament. 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

1 hour ago, Gurn said:

Is factually untrue.

young folk don't remember the 90's when Canada damn near had a royal commission to discuss what was wrong with Canadian hockey.

From 1988 till 2002 Canada won gold twice, in 14 years at the World Championships

We need another commission to determine what truly went wrong with Hockey Canada.  We all need to accept that our national development program is taking big steps back before moving forward.

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

None of the Canadian players on my team are old except for a few. McDavid, MacKinnon, Point, Marner, Verhaeghe, Cirelli, Makar, Toews, Theodore. These are all guys that are in still in the prime of their careers. And most are already Stanley Cup champions. Then you have Bedard. He’s the best 18 year old in the world. And Celebrini is the best 17 year old. 
 

The US programs down south have done a great job in closing the gap. I’ll give you that. The US team is very strong. But they might not even be the 2nd or even 3rd best team in the world. Sweden could probably beat the US as well and even the Russians. It’s not a slam dunk that the US would even get to the finals to play Canada in a world tournament. 

Construct a Swedish squad and let's see how it looks on paper!

Edited August 20, 2023 by Bob.Loblaw

[Elias Pettersson]

This is my All-Swedish team:

 

Gabriel Landeskog     Elias Pettersson      Jesper Bratt

Filip Forsberg             Mika Zibanejad        Adrian Kempe

Leo Carlsson              Elias Lindholm         Viktor Arvidsson

Joel Eriksson Ek        Mickael Backlund    Jesper Fast 

                                   William Karlsson     Rickard Rackell

 

Victor Hedman          Rasmus Dahlin 

Hampus Lindholm     Erik Karlsson

Mattias Ekholm         Rasmus Andersson

Gustav Forsling        Adam Larsson 

 

Linus Ullmark   Jacob Markstrom   Filip Gustavsson 

 

@Bob.Loblaw  I dunno Bob, I'm thinking the US team might have some issues scoring on this Swedish team.  Not just the US, I think the Canadian team would even have problems with Sweden...

[McBackup]

Voted US. I think Canada's forward corps is better, but the US has a lot of talent. The defense corps are debatable. But the US goalies are notably better than Canada's and that puts them over the top for me. 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

This is my All-Swedish team:

 

Gabriel Landeskog     Elias Pettersson      Jesper Bratt

Filip Forsberg             Mika Zibanejad        Adrian Kempe

Leo Carlsson              Elias Lindholm         Viktor Arvidsson

Joel Eriksson Ek        Mickael Backlund    Jesper Fast 

                                   William Karlsson     Rickard Rackell

 

Victor Hedman          Rasmus Dahlin 

Hampus Lindholm     Erik Karlsson

Mattias Ekholm         Rasmus Andersson

Gustav Forsling        Adam Larsson 

 

Linus Ullmark   Jacob Markstrom   Filip Gustavsson 

 

@Bob.Loblaw  I dunno Bob, I'm thinking the US team might have some issues scoring on this Swedish team.  Not just the US, I think the Canadian team would even have problems with Sweden...

This just makes me angry that we haven't seen anything remotely competitive on the international stage since the World Cup.  An entire generation of hockey players lost due to the NHL and IIHF hating each other.  Sigh.  It's clear by these rosters that USA and Sweden have taken massive steps forward.

 

There's no doubt this is a fantastic team.  I'd replace Forsling with Brodin and Rakell with Burakovsky, but they were both extra players.  This is an interesting squad where you probably have two of the best two-way forwards in the game (you really need to put Eriksson Ek higher).  But other than maybe Zibanejad and Pettersson, where is the high-end scoring coming from?  Karlsson?  A lot of these forwards are excellent first/second liners on great contracts, but money is no object.  Players like Bratt, Forsberg and Kempe are solid offensive threats but they don't compare to guys like Robertson and Thompson.  This team isn't going to score enough compared to Canada/USA.... so I'm really surprised you didn't include William Nylander here.

[wai_lai416]

a team of best players from the USA and Russia i'll say can easily beat the best of the current Canadian team.. 1 simple reason.. Goaltending.. US have Hellebuyck, Otteginer, Demko etc.. Russia have Shesterkin Vasileski Sorokin Georgiev etc.. the best we have right now in canada? it's a joke.. Adin Hill?? Logan Thompson?? Stuart Skinner? Jarry? or a Fleury that's approaching 40? Canada have no goalies have no up and coming goalies.. on a NHL team.. u can get by with the hills the thompsons if your forward and defence can dominate the other team.. but in a best on best tournament between countries where most country and march out and match up with you player to player?? goaltending is extra important.. and we dont have a single goalie in canada that i would pick to start a game 7 sudden death OT over any of the goalies i listed in US or Russia alone lol.

[flat land fish]

10 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Perfect example of what I was mentioning in the Canadian thread. The US has more depth on Defence and Goal than Canada. Canada does have higher end Forwards. But the gap between the two have narrowed considerably.

 

I'm still thinking it's due to the expense of hockey and equipment. Climate and culture has changed as well. I don't think we have as long or cold of winters. The days of kids getting outside and skating on a frozen pond or lake and playing until it got dark out. You still see some kids playing street hockey. But now there's other activities kids can do.

Is there any small community rinks that just have free ice sessions to let kids play shinny or a simple pick up game?

 

I proposed years ago, we have a system of hockey development done through our schools. They buy equipment on consignment so it's always last years, or 2 year old equipment. Have a development system starting in Grade 6-7. Only one game a week, and practice sessions learning skills and the basics. Grade 8 (Level A) you learn more advanced skills and introduce systems and go to 1 game one week, 2 games the next. Grades 9-10 (Level AA) you start allow hitting, and teaching advanced systems and improve skills and go to a 40 game (2 games a week) schedule. Grades 11-12  (AAA level) prepares you to try to make college teams (Maybe to to 5 games every two weeks). Allow sponsorship to improve funding. Because it's a scholastic program you can have no fighting and full face helmets. At least more kids would get a chance to play hockey than they otherwise would allow. Maybe it will improve the NHL draft even if it's someone in the later rounds.

 

There should be more of a push to have our Canadian Colleges and Universities trying to attract more talent. And themselves develop players. When's the last time a Canadian University had a phenom playing for them?

Some interesting thoughts, I think we will see more players from non traditional markets make it.  Since the sport started access to development and coaching would have limited many but now with access to online tools you can have access to more tools if the desire is there.  Your points on Canada’s diminished grassroots side is very relevant.  I will say the current group of minor players stands to be the most skilled rec players ever.

[shiznak]

10 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

I must point out that at an organizational level Canada has completely lost its competitive advantage to the United States.  Less and less NHL players are coming out of the CHL and CJHL.  More and more Canadian kids are opting to play within the American NTDP system and/or go the NCAA route.  "Always #1" is the type of arrogance which has led to American players quietly taking over the NHL

 

I must also point out that those Russians from the 2000s eventually won gold in 2018.  Oh, I know, I know... but technically there are young Russian athletes like Kaprizov and Sorokin who have gold medals while their Canadian counterparts do not.

Honestly, do you not see several future HHoF players in that American squad?  Do you not see several future Conn Smythe winners in that American squad?  Obviously if you compare Sid to Jack Hughes, Crosby wipes the floor with experience and accomplishments, and that will make a difference today.  But doesn't it make you worried that the bulk of Canadian superstars are essentially 10 years older than their American counterparts?  For every McDavid/Bedard that emerges from Canada, there are probably five or six franchise players that come from the United States.  The ratio of American talent just keeps going up and up, and with the old 2010/2014 Olympic champions aging out, the US have indeed hit parity with us.  

Hockey player who take the collegian route do so because they want a degree after hockey, or it’s an insurance if they don’t make it into the NHL. It really has nothing to do with a better program. The CHL focuses 100% on hockey development. Whereas, college hockey is more academic driven.

 

It’s not arrogance calling Canada, number one in hockey. Just look around the league, Canadian almost double the amount of American players. While having over 20,000+ more points.

 

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/nhl-players-by-country#

[Elias Pettersson]

6 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

This just makes me angry that we haven't seen anything remotely competitive on the international stage since the World Cup.  An entire generation of hockey players lost due to the NHL and IIHF hating each other.  Sigh.  It's clear by these rosters that USA and Sweden have taken massive steps forward.

 

There's no doubt this is a fantastic team.  I'd replace Forsling with Brodin and Rakell with Burakovsky, but they were both extra players.  This is an interesting squad where you probably have two of the best two-way forwards in the game (you really need to put Eriksson Ek higher).  But other than maybe Zibanejad and Pettersson, where is the high-end scoring coming from?  Karlsson?  A lot of these forwards are excellent first/second liners on great contracts, but money is no object.  Players like Bratt, Forsberg and Kempe are solid offensive threats but they don't compare to guys like Robertson and Thompson.  This team isn't going to score enough compared to Canada/USA.... so I'm really surprised you didn't include William Nylander here.

Haha, I forgot about Nylander, CapFriendly listed him as Canadian.  He has a dual passport, but obviously plays for Sweden.  So, I'd actually put him on the top line with Petey and move everyone else down a spot and then take out Rackell and add Arvidsson as a reserve...

 

Landeskog      Pettersson     Nylander

Forsberg         Zibanejad       Bratt

Carlsson         Lindholm        Kempe

Eriksson Ek    Backlund        Fast

 

That's plenty of scoring now that Nylander is added.  And Sweden also has arguably the best two-way forwards in the game in Petey, Lindholm, Backlund and Eriksson Ek.  You are talking 4 guys who all finished top 10 in the Selke voting.  I would say that 4th line might even be better than the Canadian 4th line...

 

And look at this defence.  Hedman, Dahlin, Karlsson and Lindholm.  Again, 3 guys who all finished in the top 8 in Norris voting, plus the actual winner in Karlsson, plus Hedman who won the trophy before.  And Ullmark won the Vezina.  This team can compete with anyone and would probably beat the Americans.

 

Next up, the Russians...

Edited August 20, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Elias Pettersson]

This is my All-Russian team:

 

Alex Ovechkin           Evgeni Kuznetsov      Nikita Kucherov

Artemi Panarin          Evgeni Malkin             Kirill Kaprizov

Andrei Kuzmenko     Pavel Buchnevich       Matvei Michkov 

Andrei Svechnikov   Ivan Barbashev           Valeri Nichushkin

Ilya Mikheyev           Yakov Trenin               Vladimir Tarasenko

 

Vladislav Gavrikov      Mikhail Sergachev      

Dmitri Orlov                 Artem Zub

Ivan Provorov             Nikita Zadorov

Alexander Romanov   Ilya Lyubushkin

 

Andrei Vasilevskiy    Igor Shesterkin     Ilya Sorokin 

 

@Bob.Loblaw  I dunno Bob, this team looks like it can score.  We are talking multi 50 goal scorers here.  Their centre depth is not strong though and their defence is week compared to the others.  But one thing the Russians do have that no other team has is literally 3 Vezina goalies.  This is nuts.  You could basically rotate all 3 goalies and play them for one period each to keep them fresh.  The Russians could conceivably score 2 or 3 goals and then hang on for dear life and let the goalies win the game for them.

 

In any event, you are right.  We really need to see a world competition soon.  Too bad there is nothing coming up anytime soon.  It's a shame really...

[Kevin Biestra]

16 hours ago, Citizen Erased said:

Yeah, The A-Team is tough as nails. 

 

Nice to see Reg Barclay in better times before he was tugging it to Deanna Troi on the holodeck.