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The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality


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#271 Sharpshooter

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:06 PM

Despite Stealth's very recent warning, it continues (I hadn't seen his warning when I issued mine).

So this thread's on it's very last legs and will be shut down if it continues to be little more than a fight.



Aww... <_<

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:P ::D
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#272 Sharpshooter

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:08 PM

No one becomes an athiest. Everyone is born an athiest, and they're either indoctrinated into a religion, or they're not.


Hear hear!
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#273 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:08 PM

Your post is interesting . The source information was taken from a guy who obviously is not a fan of Christians so its hard to find any objective conclusions in it.

In several places he assaults and rips apart Christians and their belief structure. He is likewise very generous in his personal insults to Christians as well. The piece is amusing.

However, it does not prove there is no God. It does prove he hates Christians and I assume you do or you would not have found that biased source to serve up.

I still have not seen an argument put forth by an Atheist that there is no God without ripping Christians apart.

Its like they become an Atheist so they have a licence to rip others apart. It is unattractive. Same as going down to the DMV to get a drivers licence.

They put a lot of faith in ripping others apart. It is a form of faith. I think its way too negative for me. I reject it soundly.

Anyone who wants to make a case against God without ripping Christians down, state your case.

So far all we got is further proof of my point Atheists live to rip others apart. I suggest they renounce this practice and try to become more positive.


so any criticism of the bible is ripping christians apart ,what a crock . did i ever claim there was not a god no i did not , like any sane reasonable person i believe that with the knowledge we currently posess it is impossible to prove one way or another that a god does exist , or does not exist .
as we all know only asses sume and who are you to tell me i hate people , the things i hate are racism , poverty, apathy and stupidty, the last of which i find plenty of in your post.
so lets have a look at this logically shall we , we can believe that a G-d came and spoke to abraham gave him ten laws and said you are to worship no one but me , and this god was never fully accepted until the intellectual elite of the people he spoke to were captured and imprisoned in babylon and they rationalised this by telling themselves that the g-d of abraham was angry with them so he forced nebuchadnezzar to invade jerusalem capture and imprison them as a punishment for not truly believing in him .
or as we see there already was a allegory/story in existence that is virtually identical and that a lost and oppressed people took that story changed some details and made it into their own story to give themselves hope , knowing what i do about human nature i certainly know what i choose to believe about this subject .
Professor Brian Cox, God, and the Universe

28 Mar 2011 1 Comment

by sbraynein All posts, End-of-life issuesTags: death and dying, Dr Peter Fenwick, end-of-life experiences, Professor Brian Cox, the cosmos, The Wonders of the Universe

It’s Professor Brian Cox who dunnit for me, in the sitting room, with his BBC series, The Wonders of the Universe.

His extraordinary programmes have fundamentally changed my understanding of God. Although I have never been a practicing Christian, I have always had a profound belief in God as an external force. By this I mean an omniscient intelligence that guides and nurtures me. My interpretation of this God-like presence is very personal, but it has given me great comfort in times of despair, and has provided a moral cornerstone for how to live my life.



My belief in a benevolent force stems from what I can only describe as a mystical experience. It happened twenty-odd years ago, on, of all places, a train. I had been working through some emotional issues, and was feeling raw and vulnerable, and in need of a break. A friend in Dorset had invited me to stay the weekend, and I was on my way there.

I can remember gazing out of the window, looking forward to seeing my friend, when suddenly it felt as if the curtains in my forehead parted, and everything else around me disappeared. I found myself ‘floating’ upwards in a kind of dusty light, which was full of sparkles, and being infused by a feeling of peace and serenity that I had never experienced before.

I then became aware of a lion-yellow colour streaming out from my left side. At the same time, I was filled with an understanding that should I dive into this stream of colour, I would be able to confront the many mistakes I had made and learn from them. There was no sense of judgement or blame, but rather a loving, wry knowing.

I was just thinking, ‘hmm, that’s seem like an interesting idea,’ when I ‘received’ a message, which told me, ‘Life is only an experience. It’s how you perceive the experience that matters.’ With that, the curtains in my forehead swung closed, and I was back on the train.

I suppose the whole thing may not have lasted more than a couple of seconds, but for many months afterwards, I found myself mourning the loss of that ultimate peace and serenity. In fact, even though it’s so many years later, I can still feel the same depth of loss as I write about it.

At the time, I interpreted this experience as an encounter with some kind of next-world energy that would greet me when I died. It was a huge comfort, and has stopped me fearing the actual moment of death. As I said to a friend, ‘If that’s what is waiting for me when my time comes, then Yes Please!’

It also made me aware of the importance of doing the best I can with who I am, and to keep developing spiritually and emotionally. I also realised that I had to start taking responsibility for everything I created, because there seemed to be some kind of spiritual reckoning which happens after death.

However, since working with Dr Peter Fenwick on a research project into end-of-life experiences, I am now convinced that spiritual reckoning is an on-going life experience, which heightens as we approach death. Psychologists and doctors have recognised that spiritual distress is caused by unresolved shame, anger, blame or resentment, or ruptured relationships which have never been healed. Our end-of-life study suggests that we are innately called to do this before we die, and become increasingly anxious when these issues are not addressed.

So it’s been quite an experience to watch Professor Brian Cox explaining how the Universe came into being, and how planet Earth itself is merely a grain of sand within our Milky Way galaxy, and that our Milky Way is one of billions of other galaxies that ebb and flow throughout the cosmos.

I realise now that my sense of a bigger external existence comes from the fact, as Professor Cox explains, that we are made up from atoms found through the Universe. The vastness of the Universe actually lives inside us, so no wonder we organically experience a force superior to human life.

But, as Professor Cox points out, in the greater scheme of things, human life with alls its failing and foibles, together with this beautiful blue planet we live on, are of very little relevance. We and our Earth merely exist because of the Big Bang that created our known Universe some 14 billion years ago.

Hearing him talk, and seeing the spectacular photographs from the Hubble Space Telescope of stars, nebulae and galaxies, I realised that the ’God’ I believed in doesn’t exist. But, perhaps my mystical vision tapped into an unconscious archetypal energy that has evolved over the 75,000 years since our homo sapiens ancestors first walked out of Africa, and began to try to make sense of life through their creation stories.

As Carl Jung, the father of modern psychiatry said, the relationship between the conscious mind and the unconscious mind is the same as a cork (conscious mind) bobbing on a vast ocean (unconscious mind).

As I am coming to terms with the loss of my God, I am aware that my faith in some kind of existence beyond human life is still strong. I will never forget that feeling of peace and serenity which welcomed me into that other world, or how important it is to make the very best of life that I am living right now. But it doesn’t really matter what happens to me after I die, because I – and you – are destined to return to the same stardust that made us in the first place.....Sue Brayne

with the knowledge i currently have this reflects how i feel about god and what happens after we die .

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 11 July 2012 - 03:10 PM.

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#274 key2thecup

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:12 PM

I'm not even sure what the point of these threads are anymore.


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#275 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:18 PM

How very judgemental and stereotypical of a response.


from what i have been told about you if some one had called you what you called scorpio you would have complained to the moderators and tried to get them kicked off the boards .
that was an incredibly horrible thing to say to some one , something i would never do .
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I think it's rad when balls beats natural talent

Shaun Palmer

 

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi


#276 Bill Sikes

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:51 PM

An Atheist is someone who states there is no God. They put NO faith at all into a Deity.

They have 'expanded' versions of Atheism to include subsections but it seem political to me You can expand each Religious group and each Agnostic group if you wish.

The basic tenants of the three groups are these.

Faith based. - Folks believing in God Gods

Agnostics - Folks who cant say either way and spend little time dwelling on it.

Atheists - Folks stating there is no God


So instead of putting down people of faith using negativity, how about espousing the joys of being an Atheist.
Tell everyone here how great it is to be an Atheist and why, without putting anyone else down.

Fixed a minor error :)
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#277 Ramathorn

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:01 PM

I honestly don't care if I get flamed for this,
I have a gay brother, and I am his number 1 supporter, along with my entire family and close friends, people who use the bible or religion to bring hate on someone for an uncontrollable thing, those are the people who should be ridiculed and hated upon.
Anybody who uses their "god" as an excuse to discriminate against other people, are the people who deserved to be hated.


True story breh
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#278 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:23 PM

But it's not just me - I have also seen many others' lives improve greatly by studying the bible and adopting the Christian lifestyle. Not only are their own lives better, but they become better family members and neighbours too, so others have benefited as well. On the flip-side I have also known others who once lived by the bible decide to reject it, sometimes with terrible consequences (broken families, estranged children, drug addiction, prison, dying from AIDS...). Both of these groups have included homosexuals.


So youre just basically saying homosexuals reap what they sow?

Its like youre not even aware of what you are really saying. Its really offensive.
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#279 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:49 PM

Goes to show that actual scientists, actual intellectuals highly doubt such an existence. I don't have the numbers at the moment, I've been trying to find the specific quote with a source that I heard the other day, but it's an overwhelming majority of the scientific community that disregard any sort of God. These are educated people that thoroughly understand how the world and the universe works to an extent and they are simply looking for the truth.Then you have a tax fraud with no actual science degree spouting off nonsense and claiming it to be the truth and completely disregards science that goes against the bible. Sounds like someone has very little to no credibility at all.

There are plenty of actual scientists and actual intellectuals who are Christian as well. If I was Christian, I'd probably be insulted by the insinuation that anti-intellectual charlatans like Kent Hovind are representative of Christianity as a whole. You're creating a false dichotomy.

Your post is interesting . The source information was taken from a guy who obviously is not a fan of Christians so its hard to find any objective conclusions in it.

In several places he assaults and rips apart Christians and their belief structure. He is likewise very generous in his personal insults to Christians as well. The piece is amusing.

However, it does not prove there is no God. It does prove he hates Christians and I assume you do or you would not have found that biased source to serve up.

I still have not seen an argument put forth by an Atheist that there is no God without ripping Christians apart.

Its like they become an Atheist so they have a licence to rip others apart. It is unattractive. Same as going down to the DMV to get a drivers licence.

They put a lot of faith in ripping others apart. It is a form of faith. I think its way too negative for me. I reject it soundly.

Anyone who wants to make a case against God without ripping Christians down, state your case.

So far all we got is further proof of my point Atheists live to rip others apart. I suggest they renounce this practice and try to become more positive.

Is there any particular reason you've blatantly ignored several people telling you that you have the definition of "atheist" wrong? Also, your repeated stereotyping of a large, diverse group of people is getting dangerously close to bigotry.
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#280 DarthNinja

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:51 PM

No one becomes an athiest. Everyone is born an athiest, and they're either indoctrinated into a religion, or they're not.


One could just as easily argue that everyone is born in a state of submission to God and then become indoctrinated into something else at some later point in life. I believe a major three-year Oxford study declared this concept to be true.



We have gathered a body of evidence that suggests that religion is a common fact of human nature across different societies. This suggests that attempts to suppress religion are likely to be short-lived as human thought seems to be rooted to religious concepts.
(Oxford University Project Co-Director Roger Trigg)


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**RETIRED...**

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

        Sig too big, images removed. - SN

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#281 key2thecup

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:59 PM

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#282 Cr8zyCanuck

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 06:00 PM

One of the most influential studies on the genetics of homosexuality was done by Dean Hamer and his co-workers at the National Cancer Institute in Washington DC (1993). Hamer's research involved studying thirty-two pairs of brothers who were either "exclusively or mostly" homosexual. None of the sets of brothers were related. Of the thirty-two pairs, Hamer and his colleagues found that two-thirds of them (twenty-two of the sets of brothers) shared the same type of genetic material. This strongly supports the hypothesis that there is an existing gene that influences homosexuality.



http://serendip.bryn...hange/node/1925

While sexual behaviour may be chosen, the preponderance of researchers say attraction is dictated by biology, with no demonstrated contribution from social factors such as parenting or other factors after birth.


http://www.guardian....ty-genetics-usa







END DISCUSSION!

Edited by Cr8zyCanuck, 11 July 2012 - 06:01 PM.

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#283 Cr8zyCanuck

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 06:04 PM

One could just as easily argue that everyone is born in a state of submission to God and then become indoctrinated into something else at some later point in life. I believe a major three-year Oxford study declared this concept to be true.


No it declared none of it to be true.

A 3 year old can not understand the concept of a diety as much as he/she can understand the concept of molecular biology.

Oxford is saying religion is a common phenomenon. Not just single God religion. Not just multiple God religions. EVERYTHING.

Wow I never could have figured that one out on my own.

Religion is a cultural phenomenon. There is research showing certain people (ala Republicans) are more likely to "believe". However the path to their belief is a social one, not a common genetic "I'm born believing in God" one.
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#284 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 06:25 PM

One could just as easily argue that everyone is born in a state of submission to God and then become indoctrinated into something else at some later point in life. I believe a major three-year Oxford study declared this concept to be true.


Do you have a link to the study? Seeing as Robert Trigg is a professor of theology, I kind of question its scientific validity.
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#285 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 06:43 PM

Do you have a link to the study? Seeing as Robert Trigg is a professor of theology, I kind of question its scientific validity.


Even if the study is scientifically valid, the quoted excerpt in no way supports the conclusion presented before it.
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#286 DarthNinja

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:41 PM

No it declared none of it to be true.

A 3 year old can not understand the concept of a diety as much as he/she can understand the concept of molecular biology.

Oxford is saying religion is a common phenomenon. Not just single God religion. Not just multiple God religions. EVERYTHING.

Wow I never could have figured that one out on my own.

Religion is a cultural phenomenon. There is research showing certain people (ala Republicans) are more likely to "believe". However the path to their belief is a social one, not a common genetic "I'm born believing in God" one.


The study has concluded that it is the natural inclination of humans to believe in a higher power, not religion. The study concludes that both theology and atheism are reasoned (and obviously opposite) responses to this inclination.
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**RETIRED...**

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

        Sig too big, images removed. - SN

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#287 DarthNinja

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:43 PM

Do you have a link to the study? Seeing as Robert Trigg is a professor of theology, I kind of question its scientific validity.


Here is a summary directly from Oxford's site.



A three-year international research project, directed by two academics at the University of Oxford, finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife.

The £1.9 million project involved 57 researchers who conducted over 40 separate studies in 20 countries representing a diverse range of cultures. The studies (both analytical and empirical) conclude that humans are predisposed to believe in gods and an afterlife, and that both theology and atheism are reasoned responses to what is a basic impulse of the human mind.

http://www.ox.ac.uk/...011/110513.html


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**RETIRED...**

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

        Sig too big, images removed. - SN

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#288 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:16 PM

Here is a summary directly from Oxford's site.


Here's a better summary,


• Children and adults have a tendency to see the natural world as having function or purpose—even those with advanced scientific education. This tendency makes the idea of forest spirits or creator gods satisfying.[1]
• In early childhood we have a natural tendency to attribute super properties to other humans and gods, including super knowledge, super perception, and immortality.[2] In fact, it takes longer for children to learn about human limitations than divine super abilities. Children commonly invent invisible friends, and even these friends are more like God than like visible friends in many ways.[3]
• The idea that some part of us—our mind, soul, or spirit—does not need a physical body and can persist after death may be largely intuitive.[4] Here, too, it may be that we have to be talked out of beliefs in the afterlife (or even a life before birth!), rather than talked into them.[5]
• Adolescents and young adults may find religious ideas easier to remember and use than older adults.[6]
• Religious beliefs and practices might persist in part because they make us more cooperative and generous with others.[7]
http://www.cam.ox.ac...roject-summary/

A far cry from "One could just as easily argue that everyone is born in a state of submission to God and then become indoctrinated into something else at some later point in life. I believe a major three-year Oxford study declared this concept to be true." Agreed?

I'm also curious how the children learned of the concept in the first place.

Finally, here is a tribe that never developed any gods in their cultures. If your assertion is right, then.. did god forget about these guys?

The Pirahã have no concept of a supreme spirit or god[11] and they lost interest in Jesus when they discovered that Everett had never seen him. They require evidence for every claim made. They aren't interested in things if they don't know the history behind them, if they haven't seen it done.[5] However, they do believe in spirits that can sometimes take on the shape of things in the environment. These spirits can be jaguars, trees, or other visible, tangible things including people.[12] Everett reported one incident where the Pirahã said that “Xigagaí, one of the beings that lives above the clouds, was standing on a beach yelling at us, telling us that he would kill us if we go into the jungle.” Everett and his daughter could see nothing and yet the Pirahã insisted that Xigagaí was still on the beach.[13]


With this tribe taken into consideration, I think it becomes infinitely more likely that whatever natural tendencies to fear or acknowledge supernatural phenomena are a product of evolution - coping tools for primitive humans that haven't gone away yet - than little pieces of divine placed by a creator to help us not stray from his love.

Edited by Scorpio Ego, 11 July 2012 - 09:24 PM.

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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#289 OrdinaryBoy

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:17 PM

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#290 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:26 PM

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Saw a few of these in here. :lol:
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#291 OrdinaryBoy

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:28 PM

Also, with the babies aren't religious thing, they literally can't be religious.
They don't develop a hippocampus until ~18 months so they can't remember information or past experiences.
By my understanding, they cannot know causality and therefore cannot form a belief system.
As in, they can't go "this causes that to happen".
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#292 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:30 PM

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So do you believe that or not? Or are you just posting it for $@#!s and giggles?

Edit: For $@#!s and giggles, gotcha! ;)

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 11 July 2012 - 09:56 PM.

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#293 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:33 PM

So do you believe that or not? Or are you just posting it for $@#!s and giggles?


I totally believe that. I think it's right on the money.

Don't worry, I had the same reaction until I read the first two lines. Reading more than the title helps, I speak from experience!
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#294 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:36 PM

I totally believe that. I think it's right on the money.

Don't worry, I had the same reaction until I read the first two lines. Reading more than the title helps, I speak from experience!


right on , cracked me up :lol:
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#295 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:56 PM

I totally believe that. I think it's right on the money.

Don't worry, I had the same reaction until I read the first two lines. Reading more than the title helps, I speak from experience!


:lol: That'll learn me to skim read! :blush:
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#296 Armada

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:56 PM

So have we all come to an agreement or will this religious debate go on for another millenium.
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#297 Jägermeister

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:58 PM

So have we all come to an agreement or will this religious debate go on for another millenium.


Yeah, what's another couple of million of lives.
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#298 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:05 AM

So have we all come to an agreement or will this religious debate go on for another millenium.

It's been 10 pages. These threads usually get solved quickly with everyone walking away happy and in agreement. Certainly a thread like this wouldn't go thousands of pages...

Wait... damn it.

::D
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#299 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 02:51 AM

There are plenty of actual scientists and actual intellectuals who are Christian as well. If I was Christian, I'd probably be insulted by the insinuation that anti-intellectual charlatans like Kent Hovind are representative of Christianity as a whole. You're creating a false dichotomy.


So, when you say there are actual Christian scientists, they simply believe in a creator who doesn't concern itself with actions and fates of humans? That seems more feasible than men of intellect believing in a judgmental prick in the sky and a book heavily filled with rape, the celebration of slavery, murder, misogyny, sacrifice and, of course, contradiction. There's nothing scientific or fact based there whatsoever. None of those individuals listed believe in the bible or personal gods. Highly doubtful of such an existence anyway. Same scenario for Einstein.

I'm new to this whole subject so I'm just trying to learn it without it turning into a gong show as these discussions normally do.
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#300 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 02:52 AM

:lol: That'll learn me to skim read! :blush:


Take a reading comprehension course.

Oh, settle down, I'm only kidding.
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