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(ARTICLE) Beware of the Unproven Goalie


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#1 shawn antoski

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:27 AM

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http://www.thehockey...nipeg-Jets.html


This is most apparent at the goaltending position. It’s the hardest to predict and the one most affected by injuries. That’s why, if you have a legitimate No. 1 goalie who has been that way for a number of years, you’ve struck gold and should treat that asset as such.

Perhaps that’s why the Vancouver Canucks’ asking price for Roberto Luongo is supposedly so high. Whoever ends up with him knows exactly what they are getting and that bump would be enough to get most non-playoff teams into the top eight. And, while I don’t want to knock Cory Schneider, the Canucks shouldn’t be as easily favored with him as the undisputed No. 1.

This is not to say the Canucks will miss the playoffs or even finish worse than No. 1 in the Northwest, but if you’re banking on a goalie with a short track record to carry you, you’re playing a bit of a risk. No matter how high a goalie was picked in the draft, how well he played in a development league or how sturdy he was in a backup role or even in his first season (see Mason, Steve), until he is tagged with that No. 1 job and strings a few good years together, you just never know.
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#2 stexx

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:34 AM

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dont even have to look around the league for examples, the canucks in 1994 with whitmore and mclean whole city was calling for quinn's head when he put mclean in game1 of the playoffs because whitmore(the young goalie) had better stats.

we then proceeded to run mclean through the coals in 1995 (sound familiar?)

how quickly we forget!
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#3 Nas19

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:39 AM

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We already know it's a big risk. But Schneider has been tested over, and over, and over again and he has come through each time. If Schneider plays like he has been, he will be one of the best goalies in the league. Even if his numbers drop off a bit he will still be one of the best in the NHL. He's been developed properly and he has a good head on him. All the signs point to him being the real deal. It's a risk the Canucks have to take.

Edited by Nas19, 18 July 2012 - 11:42 AM.

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#4 AFrame14

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:40 AM

Cory will excell as our starter,. Do not worry.. Lou isn't exactly proven either in the NHL. At least when it comes to the playoffs. And really that's all that matters. I'm confident in cory when it comes to high pressure games,, not so much Lou.
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#5 shawn antoski

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:43 AM

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We already know it's a big risk. But Schneider has been tested over, and over, and over again and he has come through each time. If Schneider plays like he has been, he will be one of the best goalies in the league. He's been developed properly and he has a good head on him. All the signs point to him being the real deal. It's a risk the Canucks have to take.


why do the canucks have to trade one of the best goalies in the NHL????
oh yea thats right are dumb fans listen too the even dumber media

Luongo will be the best goalie the canucks ever had

:picard: i hope we dont go back to the goalie graveyard days

I'm not hating on schneider, he has potential but Luuu is proven... He is the reason why we are an elite team

Edited by shawn antoski, 18 July 2012 - 11:46 AM.

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#6 Snake Doctor

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:44 AM

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I am not worried about it. Cory has proven himself and is consistant between the pipes. I agree that Luongo's asking price is not too high as he is also a proven starter. I just want this deal to get done so we can move on. If Hasek is getting attention at this point, then Luongo should be packing his bags.
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#7 Phil_314

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:49 AM

at the latest I hope Lu stays for half the season as a safety net for Cory, but if he's able to handle the load then Lu should be traded at the proper time to a team needing stronger goaltending (or bring in Theodore before the season starts-- I'd be happy with a Cory - Jose duo for the whole season).
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#8 smurf47

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:54 AM

why do the canucks have to trade one of the best goalies in the NHL????
oh yea thats right are dumb fans listen too the even dumber media

Luongo will be the best goalie the canucks ever had

:picard: i hope we dont go back to the goalie graveyard days

I'm not hating on schneider, he has potential but Luuu is proven... He is the reason why we are an elite team

or The team is the reason Lou was an elite goalie !!! Lou was middle of the pack on a winning team last year....a disturbing fact !!
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#9 oldnews

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:55 AM

He's right about Luongo's value being high - he is a rare, consistent, franchise goaltender.
I agree however with the Canucks decision to take the 'risk' on Schneider - there are a few young guys that pan out, and he will be one of them.
The Canucks are in a position where they have to take a 'risk' one way or another - a much better position than virtually every other team in the NHL - either way they are left with a franchise goaltender.

Edited by oldnews, 18 July 2012 - 12:20 PM.

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#10 Everybody Hates Raymond

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:57 AM

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How is he supposed to get proven as a starter then? This argument sucks.
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#11 TimberWolf

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:00 PM

Seems the standard argument is to compare Cory to Mason or the Net detective as potential flash in the pan and compare Lu to Thomas and Broduer as how goalies get better with age.
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I was saying Lu-Urns...

“That guys an idiot. It’s his own fault if he can’t tell the difference between an all star center and a plug defenceman”

"It's not the location. We just can't beat the Canucks. Thank god they're in the West."


#12 John.Tallhouse

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:09 PM

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#13 bluesman60

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:13 PM

You know what, I have pretty much got to the point of not really caring which one gets traded...Schneider or Luongo.....as long as the right package of young forwards and picks (or Shea Weber) comes to the Canucks.
The point of this whole exercise is that when everything is said and done....the Canucks end up being a much better hockey team than they are right now. You don't trade either of these goalies for 3rd or 4th liners because those are easier to get for trades of prospects or picks. MG has demonstrated that he has no problem accumulating 3rd and 4th liners but blue chippers are almost impossible to get.
So that is where we sit right now....we have a blue chipper in Luo and what looks to be another in Schneider which gives us the luxury of swapping one of them for a big time scorer for the 1st or 2nd lines. As far as Luongo's contract....I don't think that it is that onerous a contract because it has out clauses for both sides so if Luongo is the guy that stays....so be it. Am I worried about our goaltending in the playoffs with either of them....absolutely.....but....I would feel a whole lot better about either of them if MG can get some offensive players that can bury the puck when we are in tight checking regular season or playoff games. If you play most of the game in the other end of the ice....goaltending becomes less of a challenge.
If we have to go into the next season with both goalies....so what. We are better off with a tandem of goalies that makes us a better team out there than a team with one good goalie and a bunch of 3rd and 4th liners spending most of the game trying to stop the opposition from scoring and creating very little offense.
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#14 canidiot

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:15 PM

why do the canucks have to trade one of the best goalies in the NHL????
oh yea thats right are dumb fans listen too the even dumber media

Luongo will be the best goalie the canucks ever had

:picard: i hope we dont go back to the goalie graveyard days

I'm not hating on schneider, he has potential but Luuu is proven... He is the reason why we are an elite team

you do understand the concept of the goalie graveyard.......ride a goalie untill there is nothing left and no other team will have him (cloutier). we are not above being a goalie graveyard yet. moving on from lou would be a break from our old habbits. i do believe lou has something left in the tank, and given the right team, he may walk away with the cup. unfortuantly we would have to become that other team.(team Canada)
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#15 It's Bieksa's Fault

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:16 PM

To be honest, the reason fans are so stoked and so optimistic about Schneider is not because of his skills or potential, but rather his professionalism and work ethic. I don't want to say he's different from Mason or Raycroft, but yeah he's much different.

Also, every NHL goaltender is unproven at some time in their career, but somewhere down the line they solidified their status as a starter. Schneider will have to do the same, so we must let him either by dealing Luongo, or by dealing him.

Edited by It's Bieksa's Fault, 18 July 2012 - 12:21 PM.

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#16 Avicii

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:17 PM

How funny would it be if we missed the playoffs cause Schneider sucks?

I'd love to watch all the Luongo lovers beg for his return.
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#17 shadowgoon

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:20 PM

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why do the canucks have to trade one of the best goalies in the NHL????
oh yea thats right are dumb fans listen too the even dumber media

Luongo will be the best goalie the canucks ever had

:picard: i hope we dont go back to the goalie graveyard days

I'm not hating on schneider, he has potential but Luuu is proven... He is the reason why we are an elite team


The reason we are an elite team is Luongo kept us in the hunt long enough during the lean years to allow certain players to develop their games to the point they are at now. Back in 05/06 could you have envisioned the Sedins, Kesler, Burrows, Edler, Bieksa et al having the types of seasons they've just had the past 2?

It's the reason it's called a team, because it relies on more than one individual. But here is the question I pose to you: If the TEAM performs as a whole better on average with one individual over another (experience vs inexperience) and the one that gel's the team together is the inexperienced one, how can you not go with him?

Granted Luongo is far from the reason as to why there has been a rather anaemic level of playoff success the past six years, but something has to give. Luongo isn't being traded because he isn't as good as he was 6 years ago or anything of the sort, it's simply a business decision. In the world of asset management in a Salary Cap landscape, you need to go with the youngest, highest performing lower costing option regardless of the position, especially when you have a choice in the matter.

Trading Schneider would be the equivalent of Florida trading Luongo to us when they did, the only difference is the sample size is much, much smaller. I guarantee every Lou lover would change their tune if Schneider was the one on the trading block, ends up going to another team and winning a cup. Conversely if Luongo was traded and he found instant post season success, the Lou lovers would be damning Schneider and calling for Gillis' head.

It's really a no win situation for anyone involved, no matter how it unfolds someone will be unhappy.

As Tallahassee said "It's time to nut up or shut up". In other words, stop the senseless bitching and moaning and just let the chips fall where they may and assess the situation after it's unfolded. I mean god damn, were not even into August yet and everyone is crying foul and saying the sky is falling. Go outside, ride a bike, have a BBQ or go for a picnic (beware of picnic basket thieves). Enjoy the summer and look forward to the upcoming season.

What's that you ask? Calling the kettle black are we? I'm sitting in an air conditioned office because I "work" for a living.
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#18 Kola Nuts

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:24 PM

Price did pretty damn well and he was highly doubted and much less proven.
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#19 PlayingBurke

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:25 PM

The ongoing 'goalie controversy' in Vancouver is rather interesting. In my opinion, the difficulty in this position is quite high. I respect Gillis's prudence and patients; while the fundamental choice between what goalie to start in Vancouver is difficult enough, but to then try and trade the other tender for a fair value/return is difficult under the current NHL salary cap. Do I think Schneider is the right choice over Luongo? I personally do. However, there is risk in both choices. First, we could trade Luongo and Schneider could become a bust; or worse, seriously injured. Yet, if we keep Luongo and then trade Schneider, we risk Luongo continuing his decline in skill, the nightmare of Schneider succeeding on another team, and finally when Luongo retires--say four or five years, we maybe without that goalie. As a result, I think keeping Schneider is a better option than Luongo. Thus, Gillis made a reasonable choice, in my opinion.

Now, trying to get good value out of Luongo! This is another difficult task as not many teams are in the market for a goaltender. The odds of Luongo heading to Florida, in my mind, is quite high. Gillis should be trying to score a NHL ready player--i.e., Versteeg, in addition to a high-end prospect: Grubanson for example. Finally, a draft pick, would be nice as well--first rounder in the 2013/14 draft. Now, can we get these three commodities just for Luongo? Ideally, yes! Realistically, probably not. That is not to say we cannot add in another piece to get this deal done, and I would be happy with that trade. The Canucks are on the cusp of the Championship. Adding prospects will always help the future of the team, and also give trading commodities for the trade-deadline this year in case Gillis adds a rental player for their cup run.
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#20 Jägermeister

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:30 PM

No risk, no reward.
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#21 shadowgoon

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:34 PM

No sacrifice, no victory.
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#22 uber_pwnzor

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:37 PM

Beware of the Redundant Poster
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#23 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:38 PM

One thing to note that all of the 'bad' example goalies he brought up had pretty 'meh' defenses in front of them.

Reimer didn't work out? Or he was just hung out to dry?

Meanwhile, Lindback... What the hell has he proven? TB might not have improved in net at all. (But their defense sure has.)
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#24 Caboose

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:40 PM

Reimer didn't work out? Or he was just hung out to dry?


Most definitely this, combined with getting his bell rung, contributed to his lackluster season.
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#25 RXnucks975

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:41 PM

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Cory isn't all that unproven though. He had a great College career that he topped off with a National Championship, then went on to play in the AHL for three years where he was the best goalie in the league and took a okay moose team to the championship, and has played well that last two years as Lou's back up. The only way for Cory to become more "proven" as an NHL caliber goalie would be to be a teams number 1 net minder....hmmm what should we do? This isn't like Montreal starting a 20 year old Carey Price, Cory has gone through the grinding processes that is the mental preparation as well as the games played at this level (with multiple games in the playoffs) I'm ready to see what Cory can do with a full season
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#26 butters

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:51 PM

We already know it's a big risk. But Schneider has been tested over, and over, and over again and he has come through each time. If Schneider plays like he has been, he will be one of the best goalies in the league. Even if his numbers drop off a bit he will still be one of the best in the NHL. He's been developed properly and he has a good head on him. All the signs point to him being the real deal. It's a risk the Canucks have to take.


No he hasn't. He hasn't even played a single season as starter.
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#27 Gonz

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:52 PM

Not worried about the goaltending. The team has two good young goalies now. I'm more worried about sedins getting old and production dropping or keslers injuries affecting his play in the future.
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#28 Neufy161

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:56 PM

We already know it's a big risk. But Schneider has been tested over, and over, and over again and he has come through each time. If Schneider plays like he has been, he will be one of the best goalies in the league. Even if his numbers drop off a bit he will still be one of the best in the NHL. He's been developed properly and he has a good head on him. All the signs point to him being the real deal. It's a risk the Canucks have to take.


if he keeps those numbers he will be the greatest goalie of all time, in the history of the NHL. He's playing unreal, but those numbers just aren't sustainable... he's either a prodigy, or the reduced workload takes off some pressure.
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Oh hello Alain Vigneault, I see what you did there... good one.

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#29 hockeyfan90

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:05 PM

What about Bryzgalov? Remember he was backing up Giguere in Anaheim a fews years back. What about Rinne? Remember when he was backing up Vokoun in Nashville? There's a lot more but a goalie can't prove that he's a starter if not given the chance. We'll see how this works out for Van.
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#30 soshified

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:06 PM

or The team is the reason Lou was an elite goalie !!! Lou was middle of the pack on a winning team last year....a disturbing fact !!


Right, the 2007 team was the reason why Luongo became an elite goaltender!
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