SamJamIam Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 No to get too off topic but... what we are actually paying for is to decline our national option, as described in the Bank of Canada Act, to print and spend our own money into existence rather than borrow and lend it, the two monetary policies that are inherently inflationary. There is no lack of money in this country, it is that we are servicing $40B annually on a debt that we didn't need to create to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Steve Fehr said that both parties met today with the mediator at one time. No details given. They'll talk face to face or on the phone Fri. — Renaud Lavoie (@RenLavoieRDS) December 13, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 My dad is literally talking about this daily (because he has nothing better to do) but it's a myth. It's entirely the musings of old, Canadian pseudo-teabaggers. What you're talking about though is the idea that a government can "Issue" money, that they can print money and just magically give it value. This has the same effect as just printing money (see Zimbabwe). Your government can print more money and say it's worth whatever it likes, no other nation is going to give a crap and will say "You have more dollars but no more wealth, we're going to need more dollars as payment" and your currency devalues. Where issuing money differs is that it's supposed to be some workaround for having the banks lend money to them but that is based on a gross misunderstanding. Since you can't increase your country's wealth magically, you need to create a debt equal to the wealth you're creating so you have more cash to play with in the short term. It's called a loan and we all do it. While we would like to just pay the amount of our original loan and nothing else, no one is going to lend money for free. The government has many ways of accruing wealth by creating debt, like bonds, it's just that Banks are the best deal. The simple fact is this country spent way too much in the 70s when it had no idea how to deal with a recession. Then in the 80s and 90s we bought into Alan Greenspan's "spend now, ask questions later" bull. Also note that bump in the 40s. That's what happened when we tried to issue money and the rest of the world went "Nice try" so we took out a loan. The good news is that we have the ability to pay it back. Note that sizable dip in the end of your graph. That's why I vote Harper regardless of my otherwise libertarian views. He runs a damn tight ship monetarily. You can thank him for that last recession we barely felt too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerines Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ossi Vaananen Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 So now we're getting excited about them MAYBE talking on the phone? I don't but thing 3 main points by the NHL at all. Players have done the biggest concession by going down to 50%, now they're pushing CBA length and contract limits. 'Moving target' was never more accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shift-4 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Time for PA to suggest 2 week hiatus so we can find out where NHL really stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I won't quote the entire article because it's not particularly relevant to the lockout, but anyone interested in knowing what a baseball sports writer thinks about Fehr might enjoy Murray Chass' article, BET ON FEHR, NOT BETTMAN, which he felt strongly enough about to write and offer on his personal website devoted to baseball. Though he admits his limited knowledge of hockey, his take on Fehr, especially his time in baseball is particularly relevant to the "he ruined baseball" accusations people continue to toss around. Here are a few choice quotes: Fehr became general counsel of the baseball union in 1977. When Bettman became N.H.L. commissioner, Fehr had already had 16 years of experience in dealing with labor matters, and he learned and did his job under the master, Marvin Miller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 My dad is literally talking about this daily (because he has nothing better to do) but it's a myth. It's entirely the musings of old, Canadian pseudo-teabaggers. What you're talking about though is the idea that a government can "Issue" money, that they can print money and just magically give it value. This has the same effect as just printing money (see Zimbabwe). Your government can print more money and say it's worth whatever it likes, no other nation is going to give a crap and will say "You have more dollars but no more wealth, we're going to need more dollars as payment" and your currency devalues. Where issuing money differs is that it's supposed to be some workaround for having the banks lend money to them but that is based on a gross misunderstanding. Since you can't increase your country's wealth magically, you need to create a debt equal to the wealth you're creating so you have more cash to play with in the short term. It's called a loan and we all do it. While we would like to just pay the amount of our original loan and nothing else, no one is going to lend money for free. The government has many ways of accruing wealth by creating debt, like bonds, it's just that Banks are the best deal. The simple fact is this country spent way too much in the 70s when it had no idea how to deal with a recession. Then in the 80s and 90s we bought into Alan Greenspan's "spend now, ask questions later" bull. Also note that bump in the 40s. That's what happened when we tried to issue money and the rest of the world went "Nice try" so we took out a loan. The good news is that we have the ability to pay it back. Note that sizable dip in the end of your graph. That's why I vote Harper regardless of my otherwise libertarian views. He runs a damn tight ship monetarily. You can thank him for that last recession we barely felt too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 ‘Dysfunctional’ Business Model Puts the N.H.L. in Peril, Experts Say During the last 20 years, the N.H.L. has lost nearly 10 percent of its scheduled games to labor disruptions, a rate of cancellation more than three times greater than any other major sports league in North America. With the current lockout in its 88th day, negotiators from the N.H.L. and the players union are scheduled to begin a new round of talks Wednesday at an undisclosed location, with federal mediators in attendance. Even if they make rapid progress, the damage done by the third lockout under Commissioner Gary Bettman is likely to affect the league well into the future, advertising and branding experts said. “Clearly, its business model is dysfunctional,” said Tony Knopp, the chief executive of Spotlight TMS, a company that manages corporate ticket sales. “Things have to be terrible for them to be willing to throw away two seasons in less than 10 years.” Bettman was hired 20 years ago Wednesday. Since his first full season as the commissioner in 1993-94, 2,224 regular-season N.H.L. games have been canceled because of lockouts in 1994-95, 2004-5 and 2012. That is 9.7 percent of the 22,882 N.H.L. games scheduled from October 1993 through Dec. 30, including the Winter Classic on Jan. 1. No other major league has a similar rate of cancellation over the same period. The next closest is the N.B.A., which also has had three lockouts since 1993 but only lost 3.1 percent of its scheduled regular-season games. Major League Baseball has lost 2.1 percent of its regular-season games and the 1994 postseason to a strike, and the N.F.L. did not cancel any regular-season games last year during its lockout. “To lose almost 10 percent of your games to lockouts, that’s a chilling number,” said Bob Gutkowski, a partner at the private equity firm Innovative Sports and Entertainment and formerly a member of the N.H.L. Board of Governors as the president of Madison Square Garden. The N.H.L.’s 2004-5 lockout wiped out the regular season and Stanley Cup playoffs, the only season in North American major league sports to be lost to a labor dispute. At that point, the N.H.L. was a money-losing enterprise that had largely receded from the wider sports consciousness in much of the United States. The league bounced back through rule changes that made the game more exciting, and because the Winter Classic and the Winter Olympics helped draw new fans. Fans in the United States returned with the success of teams in Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston and New York, and a strong Canadian dollar increased revenue north of the border. N.H.L. revenue grew from about $2 billion in 2005-6 to $3.3 billion last season. The league’s profitability made this season’s lockout seem counterintuitive. But today’s N.H.L. is in many ways as troubled as it was before the previous lockout. The Toronto Maple Leafs, the Rangers and the Montreal Canadiens generate about 80 percent of the league’s revenue, according to Forbes magazine’s valuations, which have been disputed but are the most widely used measure of league finances. The magazine estimated that 13 of the league’s 30 teams are losing money, some more than $10 million a year. “Missing so many games shows that for some of these teams, it’s better when they’re not playing, because then they’re not losing money,” said Drew Dorweiler, a managing partner of the business evaluation firm Dartmouth Partners in Montreal. “In a nutshell, it’s because there’s a structural nonviability of certain franchises in their current locations.” Dorweiler cited money-losing clubs in Nashville; Columbus, Ohio; Florida; and Phoenix, a team he called a wounded animal. Despite a new 10-year, $2 billion contract with NBC, Gutkowski said: “The N.H.L. doesn’t get the kind of national TV money that the other leagues get, which means most of revenue is locally driven. And in a lot of markets, it’s very hard to make it work.” Bettman has often explained that as with the last lockout, this one is about limiting players’ salaries to control costs. “Too many people are forgetting where we were 10 years ago,” Bettman said last Thursday after he rejected the union’s latest offer for a settlement. “We didn’t have a healthy game and we had too many franchises that couldn’t continue. We did what we had to do in 2004 to make it right, and we’re focused with our owners on what we need to make this game healthy for our fans.” One way to get healthy is to establish labor peace, said Jay Grossman, an N.H.L. player agent. “Though the routes that baseball and football have taken to labor peace have been vastly different, both realize that labor peace equates to record growth in revenue and franchise values leaguewide,” he said. “The notion that an unconditional attack on players in three consecutive lockouts will enable growth for every N.H.L. club misses the mark.” Brian Cooper, the president of the Toronto sports management company S&E Sponsorship Group, said the current lockout would hurt the N.H.L’s business. “To many people, this has become a pattern, an M.O.,” he said. “It’s almost as if consumers and sponsors are getting the message, ‘Enjoy the next six or seven years, because you know we’re going to be out the year after that.’ ” He added: “What people want from a brand is consistency of product, accessibility and emotional connection that’s uninterrupted. These lockouts interrupt everything.” But the N.B.A. came back from a truncated season last year and had its best metrics across the board, Cooper said. “If that can happen,” he said, “maybe the N.H.L. can come back too.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Yet Bettman claims that every league goes through labor disputes when asked why the NHL goes through this so much. Yea you're right Bettman, they do go through labor disputes, but guess what? THEY RESOLVE THEM! His tenure as commissioner can't be described as anything but an utter failure. And anyone who says otherwise is mistaken. He takes credit for the NHL's growth, yet he had nothing to do with it. In fact he has done more to harm the game than help it. The owner's are completely moronic if they keep this guy as commissioner after this latest debauchery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Impersonator Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 So now we're getting excited about them MAYBE talking on the phone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Yet Bettman claims that every league goes through labor disputes when asked why the NHL goes through this so much. Yea you're right Bettman, they do go through labor disputes, but guess what? THEY RESOLVE THEM! His tenure as commissioner can't be described as anything but an utter failure. And anyone who says otherwise is mistaken. He takes credit for the NHL's growth, yet he had nothing to do with it. In fact he has done more to harm the game than help it. The owner's are completely moronic if they keep this guy as commissioner after this latest debauchery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Vintage Canuck- Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Don Cherry says NHL making a statement: After two straight days of talks between the NHL, the players' association and federal mediators ended without any progress, Don Cherry took to Twitter to give his take on the process. "Have you noticed no owners are the meetings? That's a statement in itself," the Coach's Corner star tweeted on Thursday. "It looks like the NHL is thru negotiating for now. If they're gonna get this settled, they'll have to negotiate. Sad." Mediators rejoined the conversation in hopes of moving negotiations along after talks fell apart a week ago in New York. When asked on Twitter about the role of mediators in collective bargaining, the Hockey Night in Canada commentator took a moment to answer his fans. "A lot of people have asked me what does a mediator do in these meetings? As Bill Daly says, the parties are never in the same room," he said. "Mediator gets one story then goes to the other room and so on and so forth. The mediator is a guy with a lot of patience who hears things like "tell those guys hell will freeze over before we go along with those proposals." http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/story/2012/12/13/sp-hockey-don-cherry-says-nhl-making-statement.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bookie Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Stalled lockout talks put media in play as leaks surface Talk of compromise in the NHL lockout is finally in the air. Only instead of coming at the bargaining table, it’s leaking out through media in the kind of back-channel dealings that can sometimes occur near the end of these interminable labour disputes. With mediation failing to produce any progress for a second consecutive day Thursday, one anonymous member of the NHL board of governors provided American all-sports cable network ESPN with the framework for a potential lockout-ending deal. PODCAST The book on Gary Bettman.mp3 Unsurprisingly, it involved essentially splitting the difference on the three most divisive issues. According to the report, the NHL governor proposed a nine-year collective agreement (with an opt-out after seven years for either side), a six-year limit on player contracts (with an option for eight-year deals for players who have been with a franchise for five years) and a “simple buyout option,” where the buyouts money would count against the salary cap. ESPN also spoke with two players who felt such an offer would be worth a vote of the NHL Players’ Association. The proposal is the kind of common-sense compromise that has been missing throughout a lot of this process and that has likely cost the NHL a longer regular season. Even if this anonymous proposal eventually prompts a deal, the league is unlikely to be able to play much more than a 48-game season, just as it did in 1994-95, when that lockout ended on Jan. 11, and the puck was dropped nine days later. That time frame, however, gives both sides another three weeks until they would have to get really serious – which is why they’re mired in a standoff. No one wants to give in early, and not get enough. No one wants to budge and risk giving up too much. The reality of the fight, however, is there’s little remaining to fight over. The league has, to a great extent, gotten what it wanted out of these negotiations, and the players have put up the kind of fuss they wanted to to prove they were unified and wouldn’t back down. In the end, whenever games are finally played, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman will have cut the players down to a 50-per-cent share from 57 per cent, have term limits on contracts and have a collective agreement that will almost definitely extend past his retirement date. (Unless you envision the 60-year-old commish hanging on past 67.) The remarkable thing about all of this is that even after dragging the lockout out to near its breaking point, many outside observers believe the league should be able to recover to a large extent. Ask a marketing or sponsorship analyst plugged into the pro sports world and they’ll point out that a shortened season will likely only mean a one-time 25-per-cent or 30-per-cent hit to revenues, especially with sponsorship agreements and TV deals already signed and season’s tickets spoken for. That puts some $2.3-billion (U.S.) or more on the table for the taking if they can get a deal done by mid-January – a pretty appealing carrot, given waiting beyond then could easily result in nothing going to either party. If there’s long-term damage done to the business, the pain will be shared by both sides, but financially speaking, that can be mitigated by simply having any kind of abbreviated season to wash away the ugliness that’s occurred the past three or four months. Fans, history has shown, have short memories. At this point, any outcome other than a jam-packed half-season doesn’t make any sense, not with so many involved able to forecast the endgame here. As one player remarked after seeing the ESPN story Thursday: “It’s funny that their proposal is just more toward the middle from the one we gave the NHL [last week]. What a concept.” The only question is when do those at the heart of the talks see that and will that be in time for them to realize the c-word – compromise – isn’t such a bad thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Nolan Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 players faces are back on main website.....????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNoelPatrol Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 players faces are back on main website.....????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Nolan Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 there on mine , first time ive seen them since lockout started... Ill take anything as a sign these days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowest common denominator Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Egos Driving a big huge vehicle is more an indicator of Cranial Capacity than Penile Prowess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VancouverCanucksRock Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Anyone who hasn't given up on the NHL and won't boycott themw hen they come back, is a spinless sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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