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Canucks making critical mistakes in hindsight?


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#271 SamJamIam

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:53 AM

So,after five NHL drafts with Gillis at the helm the Canucks don't have one pick that can realistically play for the team.


Tanev wasn't signed to anyone. He cost us no pick at all. Getting an NHL player whose got a hell of a defensive game at his age is quite the foundation to build on. His offensive contribution is already visibly better. Better deal than any draft.
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#272 nuck nit

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:53 AM

"Just released"? That's oldnews Nit.
And who cares?
Beaten to death in another thread.

Who cares what you think?
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#273 DeNiro

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:54 AM

This has to be the worst argument I've seen, lol

Wouldn't it make it more impressive for a rookie on a weaker Michigan Tech team to produce almost PPG while doing almost 60% on his draws, which most are in the defensive zone?


No because if you followed college hockey you would know that Michigan Tech is tied for second last with Wisconsin in the WCHA.

I never said Wisconsin was a good team, I said they have a good program. Meaning good facilities, trainers, and coaches. What they don't have right now is alot of high end talent.
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#274 nuck nit

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:55 AM

Tanev wasn't signed to anyone. He cost us no pick at all. Getting an NHL player whose got a hell of a defensive game at his age is quite the foundation to build on. His offensive contribution is already visibly better. Better deal than any draft.

Gagner brought him in and the kid has never scored a goal in the NHL.
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#275 Baercheese

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:57 AM

Cammalleri - the 6 million dollar 19/20 goal scorer
Hudler 4 million - Mason Raymond .48 ppg NHL career. Hudler .52 playing with superstars.
Cervenka - 3.8 million - zero games in the NHL
Wideman - 5.25 million dollars - 50 points in 2008. If you are claiming Connauton can't defend, wait until you get a whiff of Wideman lol.

It was Rene Bourque at 3.8 or Cammy for 6. For 2.2M more I'll gladly take Cammy
Hudler has been a consistent 40+ point top 6 forward. 50+ points more than one season unlike Raymond. Not sure how you value those, but 4M sounds about right.
Cervenka will only get 3.8 if he meets his bonuses, otherwise it's 925K base salary. And if he gets 3.8M, then he will be well worth his contract.
Did Wideman not get 46 points last year? Pretty darn close

Edited by Sven Baertschi, 22 December 2012 - 01:06 AM.

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Johnny Gaudreau>any Casucks

Edler, Markstrom, Hansen, 2nd round pick 2014 to Islanders for Ryan Strome, 5th overall pick 2014

This is fairly even as well.

 


#276 Cromeslab

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:58 AM

Our drafting doesn't suck but our development does,the past two years we should have relied a little bit more on prospects during regular season,but in the chase of the almighty presidents trophy this organization/coaching staff has some how forgotten this.
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#277 Baercheese

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:00 AM

No because if you followed college hockey you would know that Michigan Tech is tied for second last with Wisconsin in the WCHA.

I never said Wisconsin was a good team, I said they have a good program. Meaning good facilities, trainers, and coaches. What they don't have right now is alot of high end talent.

Soo... a rookie out-producing a sophomore on an equally bad team? You just further strengthen my point for DeBlouw being more impressive, thanks!
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3499h5x.jpg
Johnny Gaudreau>any Casucks

Edler, Markstrom, Hansen, 2nd round pick 2014 to Islanders for Ryan Strome, 5th overall pick 2014

This is fairly even as well.

 


#278 oldnews

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:09 AM

It was Rene Bourque at 3.8 or Cammy for 6. For 2.2M more I'll gladly take Cammy
Hudler has been a consistent 40+ point top 6 forward. 50+ points more than one season like Raymond. Not sure how you value those, but 4M sounds about right.
Cervenka will only get 3.8 if he meets his bonuses, otherwise it's 925K base salary. And if he gets 3.8M, then he will be well worth his contract.
Did Wideman not get 46 points last year? Pretty darn close


You can't really blame Sutter when Bouwmeester at 6.7 and Stajan at 3.5 were their worst contracts - add those four to the list and the Flames bang for your buck, which is what building a team under the cap is all about, is not looking very promising.

On top of that, the fact that they are in the ownership hardliner group is as ridiculous at Minnesota's gigantic contradictions, going from free agent insanity to CBA hawks - ridiculous. Calgary is in no position to hardline - they have spend money as stupidly as anyone in the NHL.
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#279 DeNiro

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:13 AM

TSN just released their special: Top 30 Prospects

Canucks were the only Canadian team without a prospect in the top 30.

Time to face the music.Luckily,it's Christmas music and you may have bought some brandy or whiskey by now.

Hodgson got two points tonight and scored the winning goal in the shoot out. PPG + stats now.


Craig Button released his list, not TSN. He's not the authority on all things prospects. His opinion isn't any more valuable than anyone's on here.

And even if you take his list at face value, who cares? Because we don't a have a prospect in a top 30 list, that means we don't have any good prospects?

You seem to have a very simplistic way of analyzing prospects. It seems like you only look at stats, and stuff that other people wrote. I actually watch these players play, and form my own opinion that way. You'll find you get a much more in depth view of players that way. ;)

You have to be the slowest learner on the planet or Gillis's plant on this board.

DeNiro ,Hodgson was set back a year by Canucks MISDIAGNOSIS.
He missed most of a year of development so drop your ignorant,silly schtick.
Yeah,and Kassian did it without any injuries,
Reality is today,De Niro and Hodgson is a world beater compared to Kassian.


I'm a slow learner, or I don't want to accept the BS you're spewing?

Hodgson injured himself because he trained too hard and injured his back. The Canucks didn't injure him, he injured himself. If he wasn't satisfied with their diagnosis, he was free to go get a second opinion, which he did. And it was the same diagnosis.

Hodgson is no world beater. He has just as many flaws to his game as Kassian. He's a poor skater, he's soft, and he has a hard time winning puck battles. He makes up for it with having a great shot, good hockey sense, and great passing abilities. Kassian lacks great hockey sense but he makes up for it with grit and winning puck battles. He's also an underrated play maker.

And if Hodgson gets the excuse of being injury prone to explain his numbers, then I'm going to give Kassian an excuse. He playes on a team that has scored 66 goals, compared to Hodgson's team that has scored 90. There's no offense on the Wolves, and therefore Kassian's game is suffering because of it. That's the reality that you ignore. Maybe if you watched him you would see he's playing pretty well.

Edited by DeNiro, 22 December 2012 - 01:15 AM.

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#280 Baercheese

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

You can't really blame Sutter when Bouwmeester at 6.7 and Stajan at 3.5 were their worst contracts - add those four to the list and the Flames bang for your buck, which is what building a team under the cap is all about, is not looking very promising.

On top of that, the fact that they are in the ownership hardliner group is as ridiculous at Minnesota's gigantic contradictions, going from free agent insanity to CBA hawks - ridiculous. Calgary is in no position to hardline - they have spend money as stupidly as anyone in the NHL.

???????? That makes no sense since Sutter was the one that signed them to those contracts. Nice try again, lol.

We paid market value for Hudler and Wideman. And like I said already Cervenka's contract is 925k plus bonuses

Cant troll without your facts man.
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3499h5x.jpg
Johnny Gaudreau>any Casucks

Edler, Markstrom, Hansen, 2nd round pick 2014 to Islanders for Ryan Strome, 5th overall pick 2014

This is fairly even as well.

 


#281 SamJamIam

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:20 AM

TSN just released their special: Top 30 Prospects

Canucks were the only Canadian team without a prospect in the top 30.

Time to face the music.Luckily,it's Christmas music and you may have bought some brandy or whiskey by now.

Hodgson got two points tonight and scored the winning goal in the shoot out. PPG + stats now.


A former Flames employee who can't even get work as a scout is clearly the most gifted at ranking prospects. Cool story bro.

Regarding your comments here how about taking a day off? You make 3 or 4 replies at a time and its just reactionary. You're trying to win a game no one else is playing. Just read the comments on here and then go away and think about them for a day. We'll wait. Hell, maybe even do some research between replies. Take the information you find and use it to develop your opinions because right now, you're a parrot. We know what a parrot has to say, they can only say so much.

We'd really like to have an interesting, reasonable discussion about this topic, because it is something we're genuinely interested in. If you're interested in that too, we'd be happy for you to join us. If not, this just continues as you and King of the ES (probably the most reviled person on this message board) giving each other pats on the back.
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#282 DeNiro

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:25 AM

Soo... a rookie out-producing a sophomore on an equally bad team? You just further strengthen my point for DeBlouw being more impressive, thanks!


He's outperforming him right now, but I know Wisconsin has a great program that has produced alot of stars in the NHL. I would count on that helping him become a great player in the long run.
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#283 oldnews

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:25 AM

???????? That makes no sense since Sutter was the one that signed them to those contracts. Nice try again, lol.

We paid market value for Hudler and Wideman. And like I said already Cervenka's contract is 925k plus bonuses

Cant troll without your facts man.


You misunderstood the post - and you use the word "troll" in a way that renders it utterly meaningless. I am fully aware that Sutter signed them - the point was that you can't look back and blame him for the Flames state of affairs when your current GM acquired a 6 million dollar 20 goal scorer (who does little else) - and overpays for another three guys on the UFA market. If you think that is the way to build a team, no wonder you're a Flames fan.
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#284 DeNiro

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:28 AM

A former Flames employee who can't even get work as a scout is clearly the most gifted at ranking prospects. Cool story bro.

Regarding your comments here how about taking a day off? You make 3 or 4 replies at a time and its just reactionary. You're trying to win a game no one else is playing. Just read the comments on here and then go away and think about them for a day. We'll wait. Hell, maybe even do some research between replies. Take the information you find and use it to develop your opinions because right now, you're a parrot. We know what a parrot has to say, they can only say so much.

We'd really like to have an interesting, reasonable discussion about this topic, because it is something we're genuinely interested in. If you're interested in that too, we'd be happy for you to join us. If not, this just continues as you and King of the ES (probably the most reviled person on this message board) giving each other pats on the back.


:lol: +1

Couldn't have said it better myself.
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#285 nuck nit

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:28 AM

When a player gets benched he is not inspiring confidence in anybody.

Just because I don't agree with your BS means exactly the same thing,pal.

NHL prospects that never play in the NHL are a waste of a pick.That's how I evaluate it.

The TSN report stated the Canucks were the only Canadian team without a prospect in the top 30.

If you can actually spend some time to read it properly you might have actually understood what it meant-and implies. :sadno:
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#286 Baercheese

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:31 AM

You misunderstood the post - and you use the word "troll" in a way that renders it utterly meaningless. I am fully aware that Sutter signed them - the point was that you can't look back and blame him for the Flames state of affairs when your current GM acquired a 6 million dollar 20 goal scorer (who does little else) - and overpays for another three guys on the UFA market. If you think that is the way to build a team, no wonder you're a Flames fan.

Right, why dont we come right back to this after already countered this point you're "trying" to make

I dont think UFA is the way to build a team. That's why I've been emphasizing that the Flames' drafting have improved.

"lol typical canucks fan, ignorant as always"

see? I can do it too
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3499h5x.jpg
Johnny Gaudreau>any Casucks

Edler, Markstrom, Hansen, 2nd round pick 2014 to Islanders for Ryan Strome, 5th overall pick 2014

This is fairly even as well.

 


#287 oldnews

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:32 AM

Craig Button released his list, not TSN. He's not the authority on all things prospects. His opinion isn't any more valuable than anyone's on here.

And even if you take his list at face value, who cares? Because we don't a have a prospect in a top 30 list, that means we don't have any good prospects?

You seem to have a very simplistic way of analyzing prospects. It seems like you only look at stats, and stuff that other people wrote. I actually watch these players play, and form my own opinion that way. You'll find you get a much more in depth view of players that way. ;)



I'm a slow learner, or I don't want to accept the BS you're spewing?

Hodgson injured himself because he trained too hard and injured his back. The Canucks didn't injure him, he injured himself. If he wasn't satisfied with their diagnosis, he was free to go get a second opinion, which he did. And it was the same diagnosis.

Hodgson is no world beater. He has just as many flaws to his game as Kassian. He's a poor skater, he's soft, and he has a hard time winning puck battles. He makes up for it with having a great shot, good hockey sense, and great passing abilities. Kassian lacks great hockey sense but he makes up for it with grit and winning puck battles. He's also an underrated play maker.

And if Hodgson gets the excuse of being injury prone to explain his numbers, then I'm going to give Kassian an excuse. He playes on a team that has scored 66 goals, compared to Hodgson's team that has scored 90. There's no offense on the Wolves, and therefore Kassian's game is suffering because of it. That's the reality that you ignore. Maybe if you watched him you would see he's playing pretty well.


Hodgson's production playing in Manitoba and Kassian's in Rochester, as you pointed out, puts those simple stats in perspective.

What's also worth remembering is what happened when the "world beater" was out in the open, out from under the shelter in Vancouver. He got exposed in Buffalo. His GM was so disappointed he went public with the fact that he was still looking for the right centerman. He then added a whole handful. Hodgson is about to find out what it's like to have younger guys nipping at his heels.
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#288 oldnews

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:41 AM

Right, why dont we come right back to this after already countered this point you're "trying" to make

I dont think UFA is the way to build a team. That's why I've been emphasizing that the Flames' drafting have improved.

"lol typical canucks fan, ignorant as always"

see? I can do it too


You can say the Flames drafting has improved because there is no evidence to show otherwise - there is also no evidence to support your claim. It is mere speculation that will be borne out in due course. You'll need more than that to show your team is on the right path.
In the meantime your GM is looking for shortcuts in the wrong places - and has failed to take anything resembling a clear course of action. Has allowed the Flamed key vets to get old enough that their potential return if moved has been significantly devalued. Rebuild, retool...rethink. Feaster was claiming that the Cammalleri deal was going to send them on a playoff run. Not much of a grasp of reality. Hasn't moved the obvious terrible contracts. Has added players who are known one-way wonders - again, not the best way to build your team. Hard to get onboard with fanboying the current Flames GM.
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#289 DeNiro

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:44 AM

When a player gets benched he is not inspiring confidence in anybody.

Just because I don't agree with your BS means exactly the same thing,pal.

NHL prospects that never play in the NHL are a waste of a pick.That's how I evaluate it.

The TSN report stated the Canucks were the only Canadian team without a prospect in the top 30.

If you can actually spend some time to read it properly you might have actually understood what it meant-and implies. :sadno:


I seem to recall Hodgson spending many a night sitting in the press box. Does that mean he's a bad player? No, this is a tactic coaches use to spark players, or maybe even the team.

Sitting out Kassian and Schroeder, two of the teams top scorers, was a direct message to the team to play better. And it seemed to have worked. Both guys, and the team are playing better.

This is Craig Button, it's not TSN. If it was a consensus list from all the TSN analysts, I would put a little bit more value into it. But it's one person's opinion. The fact that he has 2 flames prospects on there tells you all you need to know. John Groudeau is better than Zibanejad, Forsberg, Grigerenko, and Jenner? Yea...okay.

I could make a list with Jensen on it and it would be just as good as this one. You're telling me Jensen isn't better than Jaden Schwartz? Most people who follow hockey know that's not true. He's on that list because he played for team Canada in the World Juniors, that's the only reason. He's not a top 30 prospect.
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#290 Baercheese

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:46 AM

You can say the Flames drafting has improved because there is no evidence to show otherwise - there is also no evidence to support your claim. It is mere speculation that will be borne out in due course. You'll need more than that to show your team is on the right path.
In the meantime your GM is looking for shortcuts in the wrong places - and has failed to take anything resembling a clear course of action. Has allowed the Flamed key vets to get old enough that their potential return if moved has been significantly devalued. Rebuild, retool...rethink. Feaster was claiming that the Cammalleri deal was going to send them on a playoff run. Not much of a grasp of reality. Hasn't moved the obvious terrible contracts. Has added players who are known one-way wonders - again, not the best way to build your team. Hard to get onboard with fanboying the current Flames GM.

Baertschi, enough said
Granlund, Wotherspoon, Gaudreau all made WJC for their respective countries, while Brossoit was robbed.
Jankowski is hovering above .5PPG as a freshman on a team with no support cast, Sieloff is fan favorite in Windsor and will make the US WJC team, so will Gillies who's putting up unreal numbers in a tough hockey east division, Kulak, Culkin, Gordon, and DeBlouw are all putting up good numbers for their teams.

Doesn't take a genius to notice that the Flames' have improved drafting, but then again I'm dealing with a Canucks fan here
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3499h5x.jpg
Johnny Gaudreau>any Casucks

Edler, Markstrom, Hansen, 2nd round pick 2014 to Islanders for Ryan Strome, 5th overall pick 2014

This is fairly even as well.

 


#291 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:47 AM

Hodgson isn't with the Canucks
Kassian can barely score in the AHL
Connauton can't defend
Sauve can't even crack the AHL lineup

awesome !

and obviously I'd only focus on the Feaster era, lol. Why would I care about what a GM that's already fired did?


Why is it that you don't want us to critize the Sutter era, yet you can critize our 08, 09, and 10 draft years. Doesn't exactly seem fair but alright, just an excuse for your bad picks IMO.

As for Feaster, trading there orignial pick when they could have got Ceci, Wilson, Girgensons, Taravinen, Vasilevsky and Hertl. Is pretty impressive, then even on the pick they had after the trade, Taking Jankowski over Maatta was really impresive aswell. That's just last draft.

Then you say Kassian can't score yet he is 2nd on the Wolves in scoring, and you also discount all the intangables he brings, Connautions game defensively is better than you think, he has his ruff moments but the entire team is struggling, He has really been a solid pick for a 3rd rounder, Sauve has actually been pretty good, he is a victim of the lockout and a coach who doesn't have alot of confidence in him (A bad coach IMO btw) He is playing in a mainly defensive role, with little offensive opportunty, and he is a +2 I believe, not bad for a guy whose role is to defend on a team that hasn't shown all the brightly.

Right, because a 7th round pick is supposed to make the NHL rightaway the following year, lol. He's doing better than LaBate who I remember everyone was stoked about on here when he was picked


And why do you always circle back to the Sutter era? What good does that accomplish? Does that make you feel better about your current GM's poor track record?


What poor track record, I think he has done a great job based on where he has been picking, better than you guys, you guys just got better players (Baertschi) due to you finishing lower than us.

And the one player that was able to play regularly in the NHL under the Gillis regime, he traded away! Nice try though.

Bad contracts were already here when Feaster took over. He added players in their prime capable of producing. Yeah, how awful. Try harder when trolling man, not challenging.


Well when there are background issue's that are serious and we trade him for a player with a very rare skillset who is around the same area, if not in a better area in his development than Cody was at the same age, I'm fine with it.

TSN just released their special: Top 30 Prospects

Canucks were the only Canadian team without a prospect in the top 30.

Time to face the music.Luckily,it's Christmas music and you may have bought some brandy or whiskey by now.

Hodgson got two points tonight and scored the winning goal in the shoot out. PPG + stats now.


Read the list, it holds no legitimacy, not cause there are no Canucks but because of how outragous some of the players are placed on it, Craig Buttons has no legitimacy when it comes to rankings as far as I'm concerned.
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#292 nuck nit

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:48 AM

I seem to recall Hodgson spending many a night sitting in the press box. Does that mean he's a bad player? No, this is a tactic coaches use to spark players, or maybe even the team.



Small difference sitting out and actually being called out.Unfortunately,you don't get it or understand what it means.
Kassian went on a three game pointless streak after being called out and sat out.
Stuff of legends,ain't it? <_<
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#293 Baercheese

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:50 AM

This is Craig Button, it's not TSN. If it was a consensus list from all the TSN analysts, I would put a little bit more value into it. But it's one person's opinion. The fact that he has 2 flames prospects on there tells you all you need to know. John Groudeau is better than Zibanejad, Forsberg, Grigerenko, and Jenner? Yea...okay.

Gaudreau is tearing up NCAA as a sophomore. Unlike Schroeder he actually improved after his freshman year.
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3499h5x.jpg
Johnny Gaudreau>any Casucks

Edler, Markstrom, Hansen, 2nd round pick 2014 to Islanders for Ryan Strome, 5th overall pick 2014

This is fairly even as well.

 


#294 nuck nit

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:51 AM

What's also worth remembering is what happened when the "world beater" was out in the open, out from under the shelter in Vancouver. He got exposed in Buffalo. His GM was so disappointed he went public with the fact that he was still looking for the right centerman. He then added a whole handful. Hodgson is about to find out what it's like to have younger guys nipping at his heels.


I call BS.
You could say all the same things about Kassian in Vancouver.
The kid has not exactly been a 'world beater' here,either.
Being benched in the AHL is not exactly showing a promising second chance,either.
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#295 SamJamIam

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:52 AM

NHL prospects that never play in the NHL are a waste of a pick.That's how I evaluate it.


Lolwut?
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Keswho.jpg


#296 oldnews

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:53 AM

Baertschi, enough said

Jankowski is hovering above .5PPG as a freshman on a team with no support cast, Sieloff is fan favorite in Windsor and will make the US WJC team, so will Gillies who's putting up unreal numbers in a tough hockey east division, Kulak, Culkin, Gordon, and DeBlouw are all putting up good numbers for their teams.

Doesn't take a genius to notice that the Flames' have improved drafting, but then again I'm dealing with a Canucks fan here


Baertschi is all you can say.
Jankowski is fifth on his College team in scoring, yet he has no supporting cast? Tell yourself whatever you need.
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#297 oldnews

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:55 AM

I call BS.
You could say all the same things about Kassian in Vancouver.
The kid has not exactly been a 'world beater' here,either.
Being benched in the AHL is not exactly showing a promising second chance,either.


You're calling BS on yourself? Kassian hasn't been a world beater either? In other words Hodgson hasn't been a world beater, and you are making the point that your own claim was BS.
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#298 Baercheese

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:55 AM

Why is it that you don't want us to critize the Sutter era, yet you can critize our 08, 09, and 10 draft years. Doesn't exactly seem fair but alright, just an excuse for your bad picks IMO.

As for Feaster, trading there orignial pick when they could have got Ceci, Wilson, Girgensons, Taravinen, Vasilevsky and Hertl. Is pretty impressive, then even on the pick they had after the trade, Taking Jankowski over Maatta was really impresive aswell. That's just last draft.

Um, because Sutter is fired and Gillis is still your GM? lol

He traded down and got a 2nd, which turned out to be Sieloff who will be a very good player, on top of a raw, but very talented Jankowski.

What poor track record, I think he has done a great job based on where he has been picking, better than you guys, you guys just got better players (Baertschi) due to you finishing lower than us.

Like I've said already earlier, go back and read.
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3499h5x.jpg
Johnny Gaudreau>any Casucks

Edler, Markstrom, Hansen, 2nd round pick 2014 to Islanders for Ryan Strome, 5th overall pick 2014

This is fairly even as well.

 


#299 oldnews

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:57 AM

So ironic to hear all this whining about no potential NHLers in the Canucks system when Jensen is in the prospect pool.
Gonna make y'all look like fools.
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#300 Baercheese

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:59 AM

Baertschi is all you can say.
Jankowski is fifth on his College team in scoring, yet he has no supporting cast? Tell yourself whatever you need.

Dont acknowledge the fact that we have 5 prospects from last 2 drafts alone that will be in this WJC, a tournament where the best prospects from each country play each other.

Yeah, Baertschi is all I can say

As for your Jankowski argument, lol. The leader of his team is 3 points in front of him and he's a junior. Nice try.
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3499h5x.jpg
Johnny Gaudreau>any Casucks

Edler, Markstrom, Hansen, 2nd round pick 2014 to Islanders for Ryan Strome, 5th overall pick 2014

This is fairly even as well.

 





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